Ideas on MOTO GP

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Apr 12 2010, 11:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why wont they ?


The cost would be ridiculos. Is there really need for a road bike? From my understanding Pneumatic valves in motogp are operated by a small pressurized tank. How do get the system to work on a road bike?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 12 2010, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I just asked Shuhei Nakamoto - big boss of HRC - about the use of electronics in MotoGP. He said they learn an awful lot from the electronics in MotoGP, which has direct application in road bikes, in terms of throttle control and even traction control. He said MotoGP would be a lot less interesting for them as a manufacturer if there were limits put on electronics.

I'm afraid I do not buy Mr. Nakamoto marketing chitchat - "we race to give you better road bikes" - No way, they race to win and sell us more Hondas, and if they do not win they are pissed... The best traction control on a road sports bike to date is BMW's, who obviously did not develop it through racing.

Manufacturers do not want to give up electronics in racing because they all hope they can gain a competitive advantage through software, which is much less expensive than hardware

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Oniker @ Apr 11 2010, 06:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The cost would be ridiculos. Is there really need for a road bike? From my understanding Pneumatic valves in motogp are operated by a small pressurized tank. How do get the system to work on a road bike?

You don't need pneumatic valves b/c there isn't any reason for a production bike to make more than 16,000rpm. In the world of production bikes, if you want more power, you raise the displacement.

Displacement-limited race bikes are the only motorcycles that will ever need pneumatic valves. However, they can't ban pneumatics b/c it will give Ducati a big advantage.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Apr 12 2010, 07:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the tracks play a large part in excitement and close racing. Some tracks always give good racing and some don't. I also think we go to the same tracks for to many consecutive years. Rider's get to familiar with them. If they mixed it up a bit more i think it would be more exciting and interesting for us and keep the rider's on there toe's having to learn more tracks. There are plenty of great circuits around the world.
Great suggestion Rog. The drawback? Some tracks in unfavourable locations but up BIG bucks for their privilege...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Oniker @ Apr 12 2010, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The cost would be ridiculos. Is there really need for a road bike? From my understanding Pneumatic valves in motogp are operated by a small pressurized tank. How do get the system to work on a road bike?
Phish-posh... greater and seemingly more difficult engineering obstacles have been overcome. If the market wants it it would happen.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 12 2010, 09:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You don't need pneumatic valves b/c there isn't any reason for a production bike to make more than 16,000rpm. In the world of production bikes, if you want more power, you raise the displacement.

Displacement-limited race bikes are the only motorcycles that will ever need pneumatic valves. However, they can't ban pneumatics b/c it will give Ducati a big advantage.
I LIKE high-strung, small displacement bikes. My RZ350 track bike turned 15,000. ...., my TZM150 does 13,000... Europeans tend to like them too... Not everyone feels the solution to more power is raising displacement. Lowering weight and higher-strung tuning can be fun... any current 600 cc sportbikes come to mind?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 12 2010, 02:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm afraid I do not buy Mr. Nakamoto marketing chitchat - "we race to give you better road bikes" - No way, they race to win and sell us more Hondas, and if they do not win they are pissed... The best traction control on a road sports bike to date is BMW's, who obviously did not develop it through racing.

Manufacturers do not want to give up electronics in racing because they all hope they can gain a competitive advantage through software, which is much less expensive than hardware
Not convinced. S/W can be very expensive, especially real-time safety critical stuff like this. Trust me, I know what I charge

Agree with your other points and would argue that a road bike with complex TC would not be "safer" - it'll just put a bigger hole in the scenery if/when you do .... up.

Edited to add : And the Born Again (or less capable) riders would possibly rely on the TC to the extent that they'd be more likely to push it too far. TC on a road bike is as undesirable to me as a HP limit IMO.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Oniker @ Apr 12 2010, 02:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The cost would be ridiculos. Is there really need for a road bike? From my understanding Pneumatic valves in motogp are operated by a small pressurized tank. How do get the system to work on a road bike?
The cost would fall dramatically once the components were mass-produced. Cant be any more expensive than variable valve timing on cars. I had an air tank on my bike for the MRE air shift gears i had. This tank could be filled by a small onboard compressor. The only way to get more power from a smaller engine with the .... petrol we have is by higher rev ceilings. Conventional valve springs limit this. Before you think it will never happen on road bikes look at the new R1. I never thought there would be a road bike with a cross plain crank (big bang).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 12 2010, 07:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not convinced. S/W can be very expensive, especially real-time safety critical stuff like this. Trust me, I know what I charge

Agree with your other points and would argue that a road bike with complex TC would not be "safer" - it'll just put a bigger hole in the scenery if/when you do .... up.

Agreed. Look at Avatar. It is a cartoon, but was the most expensive movie of all time to produce. Everything done on computer. The money is allocated differently.

It's all about advertising. Every team wants themselves on top because you might bring in 10-15 new customers.

Really cannot comment on the "safety of TC", as the only time people seem to .... up on the street is when they are doing something that is above their abilities (which means they are trying to be Valentino Rossi). TV would only encourage people to go above their abilities.

"TC would only encourage people to go above their abilities."

I remember vividly the same thing was said about the z1000, gxr750, and hayabusa... people are smarter than you think and many of the rest are nominees for the Darwin Awards!!! LOL

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Apr 12 2010, 07:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"TC would only encourage people to go above their abilities."

I remember vividly the same thing was said about the z1000, gxr750, and hayabusa... people are smarter than you think and many of the rest are nominees for the Darwin Awards!!! LOL

It only takes one ....... to .... things up for the rest of us though.

How so? I still ride what I like, the way I like, and manage to do it safely...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Apr 12 2010, 11:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"TC would only encourage people to go above their abilities."

I remember vividly the same thing was said about the z1000, gxr750, and hayabusa... people are smarter than you think and many of the rest are nominees for the Darwin Awards!!! LOL
I argued that a road bike with complex TC would not be "safer" - it'll just put a bigger hole in the scenery if/when you do .... up and that less capable riders would possibly rely on the TC to the extent that they'd be more likely to push it too far.

That is a very different phenomenon than simply having a bike which exceeds the riders capabilities. Look at the difference between a 1990s FZR Genesis and an R1. Neither have/had TC and so both rely only on the rider to make the call.

I appreciate that tyres have hugely advanced since the 90s too (look at the BT016s with their multi-compound makeup for example) but adding TC for the road is the way to more complaisant speed and hence more unwitting accidents IMO. At the end of the day the modern road bikes/tyres already flatter ability. Why add another dimension?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 12 2010, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not convinced. S/W can be very expensive, especially real-time safety critical stuff like this. Trust me, I know what I charge

I'm aware of the SW costs at this level, still think that developing a new camshaft is more expensive than patching a software mapping with maybe similar results.

And I have not mentioned the other reason why the manufactuirers love ECUs: it feeds their eternal desire to make the riders less relevant. Building the intelligence and sensitivity of the rider into the system, so that 'any' good rider will win on their bike. Deluded folks, they can't help it

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 12 2010, 03:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Displacement-limited race bikes are the only motorcycles that will ever need pneumatic valves. However, they can't ban pneumatics b/c it will give Ducati a big advantage.

Not necessarily. There's no reason why the other manufacturers can't use desmodromic valve actuation like Ducati. After all, Ducati certainly don't have a patent on it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 12 2010, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not necessarily. There's no reason why the other manufacturers can't use desmodromic valve actuation like Ducati. After all, Ducati certainly don't have a patent on it.
Taken from wiki.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Ducati holds a number of patents relating to desmodromics. Desmodromic valve actuation has been applied to top-of-the-range production Ducati motorcycles since 1968,

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Apr 12 2010, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Taken from wiki.

Good point, but it's only for details. The actual process itself is almost as old as the combustion engine, and so it would be no problem working around it. Especially with the resources HRC have to throw at the problem. They were actually considering desmo valves in '08, and ran simulations of desmo vs pneumatics for the RC212V.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Apr 12 2010, 02:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Great suggestion Rog. The drawback? Some tracks in unfavourable locations but up BIG bucks for their privilege...


Phish-posh... greater and seemingly more difficult engineering obstacles have been overcome. If the market wants it it would happen.


I LIKE high-strung, small displacement bikes. My RZ350 track bike turned 15,000. ...., my TZM150 does 13,000... Europeans tend to like them too... Not everyone feels the solution to more power is raising displacement. Lowering weight and higher-strung tuning can be fun... any current 600 cc sportbikes come to mind?

Those bikes have no valves (not like 4-strokes anyway). Write the MSMA a letter about how they are killing clean 2-stroke technology and driving up costs for everyone who loves two wheels.

I don't mind if bikes run extremely high rpm. I do mind paying for it. Two strokes are cheap, 4-strokes are not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 12 2010, 09:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Those bikes have no valves (not like 4-strokes anyway). Write the MSMA a letter about how they are killing <span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%clean 2-stroke technology and driving up costs for everyone who loves two wheels.

I don't mind if bikes run extremely high rpm. I do mind paying for it. Two strokes are cheap, 4-strokes are not.
sorta like clean coal technology...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 12 2010, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not necessarily. There's no reason why the other manufacturers can't use desmodromic valve actuation like Ducati. After all, Ducati certainly don't have a patent on it.

They do have several patents on their type of desmo, but as you said in another post they are not relevant, and not difficult to work around especially in a world of prototype racing (where patents are not even contemplated imho).

What is relevant here is that adopting a solution that has become the emblem of Ducati would mean losing face for the Japs, and that 'protects' Ducati more than any patent.

On top of it, a desmo solution would have to be developed from scratch, its' not like pneumatic valves which is almost an off-the-shelf technology, you can find all the basic components on the market. It would take at least two years to make it as competitive as Ducati's -- impractical.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 12 2010, 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>sorta like clean coal technology...

Actually, no. In marine applications (which has much stricter environmental controls than road machines), they're banning four strokes and everyone is switching to two strokes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 12 2010, 07:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...adding TC for the road is the way to more complaisant speed and hence more unwitting accidents IMO. At the end of the day the modern road bikes/tyres already flatter ability. Why add another dimension?
I guess this is my point as well, with different results. I too believe that bikes/tires/abs/etc... flatter but I don't see TC being any different and those that can wisely make use of it will and others won't. I do not see any significant increase in carnage.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 12 2010, 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Those bikes have no valves (not like 4-strokes anyway). Write the MSMA a letter about how they are killing clean 2-stroke technology and driving up costs for everyone who loves two wheels.
Yes I did use my smokers as examples of high RPMs as I did current 600s which I'm sure you understood. These bikes are light, high-revving and sales leaders.