Again we disagree.
Any rider who falls places themselves and others at risk as let us not forget that Edwards broke a collarbone and Rossi was extremely lucky not to fall in the Simoncelli incident as the bike skewed back to their path.Further, the Simoncelli incident also occurred in the early laps, thus all that you wish to put at CS also applies in that incident.
In CS' case he fell and Sete had nowehere to go but over the bike/rider (although video is unclear on how early CS fell).
Both were extremely unfortunate racing incidents, although with significantly different outcomes
Stoner was a very safe rider (despite JL's complaint about the Laguna pass). He only had one bad incident, being the Sete incident, which is normal and to be expected.
Mugello 2010 was pretty bad, but it was clearly the exception rather than the rule.
Agreed.
JL never complained about the Laguna pass ........... CS offered an apology as he felt he had not given JL enough room (assuming talking about the outside pass at T1)
You have seen my thoughts so all good there but I would add the only time that genuinely springs to mind for me where he made serious contact in a pass would have been when he tool flock of seagulls in a race after CS had been bumped wide and had a red mist.
Cannot think of the track but for some damn reason, turn 6 comes to mind and was HRC days for CS
Edited. As MichaelM has corrected - was Barbera I was thinking of in the incident
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What JL said iirc were words to the effect that it was an audacious high speed pass, but that Stoner was a safe rider and if he thought it was safe it probably was.
I think the issue was that it was at a very high speed at a place with not much room, but it was actually praised at the time including by the likes of Kevin Schwantz, again iirc, and there was certainly no loss of control by Stoner, contact, or need for any evasive action from Jorge.
It is still one of my favoured pieces of commentary from recent year - the excitement is Darrell Eastlake like -
The crude pass on Barbera at Mugello 2012 was the one I was thinking of, it certainly didn’t meet his own professed standards but was probably not actually particularly dangerous or reckless, and probably didn’t alter where Barbera finished as I suspect Casey would eventually have got past him anyway.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
If you stand right under the bridge and look through the kink, known as turn 1, you'd get a sense at how utterly fearless was this pass. You cannot see the other side, it looks like the world ends and by faith hope the road is actually still there when you go over the crest whilst leaned over. When you pass the start finish, the track climbs on the approach to the kink then drops off the other side off camber, so that you can't actually see the apex point, which you're aiming for whilst leaned over. So to overtake someone there is balls on steroids. It's still one of the most thrilling overtakes I've seen, but you really do need to walk the track to get a sense of what's what. The video does not do it justice. Riders have actually died out of turn 1. It really is undescribable, you would need to stand there and see it from the angle of approach to begin to wrap your head around this part of the track.
This is what you see on the approach, as seen from the on-board camera. You cannot see the other side. When the camera switches to the front it appears as if the riders are on a flat track, but it's not the case, the apex is slightly ahead of the crest. You can see Stoner setting up as he positions himself on the narrow edge outside of Lorenzo on the approach to the bridge. It's already difficult to do when you're going through there by yourself, but to do it knowing you have to come out ahead on the other side is insanity. I don't think there are many top level riders that would try this maneuver.
Edit: to give you an idea of the elevation change, which the camera simply does not capture, I remember seeing a picture of Marquez with both tires off the ground going over turn 1. Which brings up another hair raising element about this part of the track, imagine the feeling you get when there is turbulence on a plane and your heart goes into your stomach for a moment.
Edit: found the picture
If you stand half way from turn 2 facing turn 1, you would have no idea what bikes are approaching until you'd see them leaned over "jumping" out of the horizon; in Marc's case as you can see, this is literally jumping.
As we all know, Casey first did this pass on a pig Ducati against Rossi here in 08. And I must add, in one of the most dirty displays of tactics by Rossi ever seen. If we are to 'believe' Rossi was justified in crashing out Marc at Sepang, then by all rights Stoner should have deliberately crash Rossi out at Laguna, justifiably. It's with great pleasure to be witnessing Rossi go absolutely chickenshit with Marquez now. Rossi is the biggest hypocritical whining ..... the sport has ever known.
"I'm scared." Valengina Rossi circa 2018
Haha ....... awesome. I'm gonna get this on a t-.....
This is what you see on the approach, as seen from the on-board camera. You cannot see the other side. When the camera switches to the front it appears as if the riders are on a flat track, but it's not the case, the apex is slightly ahead of the crest. You can see Stoner setting up as he positions himself on the narrow edge outside of Lorenzo on the approach to the bridge. It's already difficult to do when you're going through there by yourself, but to do it knowing you have to come out ahead on the other side is insanity. I don't think there are many top level riders that would try this maneuver.
Edit: to give you an idea of the elevation change, which the camera simply does not capture, I remember seeing a picture of Marquez with both tires off the ground going over turn 1. Which brings up another hair raising element about this part of the track, imagine the feeling you get when there is turbulence on a plane and your heart goes into your stomach for a moment.
Edit: found the picture
If you stand half way from turn 2 facing turn 1, you would have no idea what bikes are approaching until you'd see them leaned over "jumping" out of the horizon; in Marc's case as you can see, this is literally jumping.
As we all know, Casey first did this pass on a pig Ducati against Rossi here in 08. And I must add, in one of the most dirty displays of tactics by Rossi ever seen. If we are to 'believe' Rossi was justified in crashing out Marc at Sepang, then by all rights Stoner should have deliberately crash Rossi out at Laguna, justifiably. It's with great pleasure to be witnessing Rossi go absolutely chickenshit with Marquez now. Rossi is the biggest hypocritical whining ..... the sport has ever known.
"I'm scared." Valengina Rossi circa 2018
Haha ....... awesome. I'm gonna get this on a t-.....
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Thing is Jums, I saw a video and he took Rossi at the same place in that epic 2008 duel, so he had 'been there done that'.
And your description is something that the tv just cannot show, just as it does not with any circuit really
There are pages and pages of post Argentina arguments on here and they are full of pro and anti Vale and Marc sentiment.
On both sides there are multiple historic examples of multiple riders having incidents being used to justify the author's stand point. In some cases people feel that rider X was at fault whereas others think to the contrary.
Whilst we can argue about the minutiae of each incident, the one peace of evidence that is utterly incontrovertible is that the sport is full to the gills with these incidents because that is the nature of the sport. It always has been thus. I'd like to think that we can all at least agree on that?
So that brings me to the conclusion that this current madness with all riders under the microscope is down to one thing, and it's not due to a sudden dangerous rise in racing incidents.
It is down to one man abusing his standing in the racing community by issuing overly exaggerated rhetoric to further his own gains.
On both sides there are multiple historic examples of multiple riders having incidents being used to justify the author's stand point. In some cases people feel that rider X was at fault whereas others think to the contrary.
Whilst we can argue about the minutiae of each incident, the one peace of evidence that is utterly incontrovertible is that the sport is full to the gills with these incidents because that is the nature of the sport. It always has been thus. I'd like to think that we can all at least agree on that?
So that brings me to the conclusion that this current madness with all riders under the microscope is down to one thing, and it's not due to a sudden dangerous rise in racing incidents.
It is down to one man abusing his standing in the racing community by issuing overly exaggerated rhetoric to further his own gains.
Joined Jun 2016
642 Posts | 244+
Santa Cruz, Cal
I wondered why I couldn't remember the Stoner, Gibernau incident, and then it dawned on me what race people were talking about: Pedrosa takes out his team mate who is leading the championship, Roberts comes in third on his dad's bike, and Elias wins the crazy thing. Stoner-Gibernau were hardly a warm-up act. lol
I think there is one where he is even higher and the front wheel is slightly off line. I haven't found it, though, so I might have old age memory. The farther you are to the inside the higher you get.
Too funny. I would pay $20 for one. I couldn't wear it to a race, though. My ... isn't that bad to fight a horde of yellow shirts, coming for Italian honor, even though most don't even look Italian. ;-)
I obviously definitely agree in regard to the specific incident between MM and VR in the recent Argentinian GP.
MM was dangerous and reckless before he joined the premier class though, ask Willairot. Jumkie didn’t dub him Murder Marc for no reason.
In the premier class apart from the last corner pass on Lorenzo at Jerez 2013 which just possibly could have been in emulation of another rider, and the incident in practice where stewards were endangered I don’t think he had been notably worse than anyone else. I did think he tended to stay too close to riders he was following when not attempting a pass early on; he might have been confident he would make no mistake but it was a tad intimidatory imo.
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I absolutely agree that Marc had previous in Moto 2, but don't think that it has such an accumulative nature as to be held up as a justification for the position where we find ourselves in now (for the record I don't think that you were insinuating that for a moment).
I agree with your assessment of his big class indiscretions too, although I'm not concerned with his 'holding distance' to other riders.
As an example of incidents being so common place as to negate the current situation, I would look at PI last year, there were bikes with broken tails and riders with tyre marks up their leathers. Yes, I understand that no one came off as a result, however it does highlight the very essence of racing and therefore serve to show the overblown nature of the Argentina reactions.
What's the general consensus amongst the board? Could a race like PI 2017 happen in the immediate wake of Argentina 18?
If the answer is no, which I think it is, then the sport is all the poorer for it.
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Sure, I think in 2013 Jorge and Dani thought he was likely to crash on any given lap, and were understandably nervous about him shadowing them so closely, and I agreed with them then, but he has proven since he largely doesn’t crash in that circumstance, with the freak cutting the wire incident with Dani the only real instance.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
This is not the best example of calling a spade a spade. Calling a spade a strawman more like it. If you are going to argue all angles at the same time there’s little point in debate.
Overriding a bike resulting in a crash is overriding the bike. Plain and simple. The rider in each case is completely unaware of what might happen next, both Stoner and Simmoncelli.
Playing strawman, I have no idea how Simoncelli might react if only he had the chance to race against the likes of Marquez, but I can guess his reaction would be a grin from ear to ear. His reaction to claims of feeling unsafe? Maybe it’s time to hang up the boots old chap. Complete fabrication on my part, but one of many plausible possibilities none the less.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Careful now, this sort of post will soon have you labelled a hater.
My understanding of the comment Marquez should be left to be himself was that if we did ban him for whatever period, a race s month or a year, he would simply return..........exactly the same. A rider who enjoys, takes absolute unbridled joy, in the inherent risk of racing, no more, no less. You simply can’t fake that, in a time of endless let’s just say “false enhancements”. Are Kardashian lip and arse implants really real? Wow.
In any other time, Marquez would be a once in a lifetime racer. Unfortunely for him, rather than endless cheers, he gets rewarded with a chorus of boos.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
As said before, Rog had (has) always was knowledgeable about racing and had some really good insight into the sport, when he wasn't getting all bent out of shape over anybody speaking badly about Rossi, at which point he just came unglued.
He was a pisser to hang out with at Laguna - tho I always sensed a bit of reserve with him - which later came out, that he didn't trust anybody who didn't drink. That I didn't get ....-faced with him meant essentially that he felt I wasn't part of the tribe. Ironic... as the reason I didn't drink with him is because I'd once had a liver the size of Rhode Island from years of being a raging drunk. My not drinking with him was simply a matter of preserving what was left of my health. But he took it to mean I had something to hide or perhaps that I looked down on him.
Personally - I'd prefer it that Synn were not Rog. I'd always held out hope that he and I might some day bury the hatchet.
In a moment of idle speculation, I wonder whether he might be Wosidog/deg, the ultimate megabopper banned even by crashnet and motomutters. He was knowledgeable about GP bike racing and bikes in general though, and both smart enough and sufficiently obsessive/obsessed to run a Synn persona over this period of time as well as being wont to sheepshagging references.
And yes Synn, this does mean to quote John McEnroe that I believe you can't possibly be serious.
