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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l13eaw @ Jun 27 2008, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok then does anyone not think that it is probably actually .... loads harder to win a world championship on either 125 cc or 250 cc, just because the bikes are more evenly matched and there are .... loads on the grid?
All those who spout on about Rossi's 7 WC titles include his former years. Why should Melandri be any different in that respect?
A WC is a WC no matter what the class. Your still the best on the grid at that time, end of.
i agree lizzy babes. i always count the 125 and 250 titles. i think they have enormous value.
All those who spout on about Rossi's 7 WC titles include his former years. Why should Melandri be any different in that respect?
A WC is a WC no matter what the class. Your still the best on the grid at that time, end of.
i agree lizzy babes. i always count the 125 and 250 titles. i think they have enormous value.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jun 27 2008, 03:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The point is that the 250cc machines are two strokes(very narrow powerband). One must be able to extract every ounce of power without the use of electronics to be successful. The rider needs to be very <strike>precise</strike> tiny to ride a 250cc two stroke fast; there is no torque to cover errors.
Fixed it for you.
As for the 250 debate, when are you Europeans going to realize they call it a world title for marketing reasons? Colin Edwards is not a 2x world champion, because he came from a different series that competes with motogp so they don't recognize his titles or they say "2x WSBK champ". They call Rossi the 7x world champion to lend credence to the lower classes and increase the stats sheet and the glamor of the championship winning riders.
I'm sure 250 is very difficult and requires plenty of skill (all racing series do) but drinking the marketing Kool-Aid doesn't make it a legit world title.
The frustration you feel when we Americans wax on and on about the importance of the AMA, is the same frustration non-GP fans feel when DORNA-lovers speak highly of 250. The difference is, we are joking and you are serious
Even some American fans have gotten a taste for the red juice.
Fixed it for you.
As for the 250 debate, when are you Europeans going to realize they call it a world title for marketing reasons? Colin Edwards is not a 2x world champion, because he came from a different series that competes with motogp so they don't recognize his titles or they say "2x WSBK champ". They call Rossi the 7x world champion to lend credence to the lower classes and increase the stats sheet and the glamor of the championship winning riders.
I'm sure 250 is very difficult and requires plenty of skill (all racing series do) but drinking the marketing Kool-Aid doesn't make it a legit world title.
The frustration you feel when we Americans wax on and on about the importance of the AMA, is the same frustration non-GP fans feel when DORNA-lovers speak highly of 250. The difference is, we are joking and you are serious
Even some American fans have gotten a taste for the red juice.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jun 27 2008, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fixed it for you.
As for the 250 debate, when are you Europeans going to realize they call it a world title for marketing reasons? Colin Edwards is not a 2x world champion, because he came from a different series that competes with motogp so they don't recognize his titles or they say "2x WSBK champ". They call Rossi the 7x world champion to lend credence to the lower classes and increase the stats sheet and the glamor of the championship winning riders.
I'm sure 250 is very difficult and requires plenty of skill (all racing series do) but drinking the marketing Kool-Aid doesn't make it a legit world title.
The frustration you feel when we Americans wax on and on about the importance of the AMA, is the same frustration non-GP fans feel when DORNA-lovers speak highly of 250. The difference is, we are joking and you are serious
Even some American fans have gotten a taste for the red juice.
what like your "world series"
motogp race all over the world and have riders from many nationality's making it a world championship. why do you follow the sport lex ? you never have a good thing to say about it. i think you enjoy starting debates here more than you do the racing.
As for the 250 debate, when are you Europeans going to realize they call it a world title for marketing reasons? Colin Edwards is not a 2x world champion, because he came from a different series that competes with motogp so they don't recognize his titles or they say "2x WSBK champ". They call Rossi the 7x world champion to lend credence to the lower classes and increase the stats sheet and the glamor of the championship winning riders.
I'm sure 250 is very difficult and requires plenty of skill (all racing series do) but drinking the marketing Kool-Aid doesn't make it a legit world title.
The frustration you feel when we Americans wax on and on about the importance of the AMA, is the same frustration non-GP fans feel when DORNA-lovers speak highly of 250. The difference is, we are joking and you are serious
Even some American fans have gotten a taste for the red juice.
what like your "world series"
Austin
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Jun 27 2008, 01:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>just as calling a series inferior is ridiculous....i see your point, do you see mine?
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Unless we're talking about DMG.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jun 27 2008, 05:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The point is that the 250cc machines are two strokes(very narrow powerband). One must be able to extract every ounce of power without the use of electronics to be successful. The rider needs to be very precise to ride a 250cc two stroke fast; there is no torque to cover errors.
If you have any doubts about the importance of the 250cc world championship, just have a look at the dominant riders in MotoGP(and even WSBK). Take a look at the list: Troy Bayliss, Valentino Rossi, Max Biaggi, Loris Capirossi, Dani Pedrosa, Casey Stoner, Marco Melandri(the list goes on!)...all successful former 250cc racers.
The two stroke engine is not so easily tamed, so the role of the rider is very important in 250cc racing.
I agree with you but wasn't Bayliss a late bloomer who came up club racing 600s then straight to Superbikes? I could be wrong here (and very likely am) but I don't recall Bayliss riding 250s.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jun 27 2008, 09:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Even some American fans have gotten a taste for the red juice.
I agree wholeheartedly that Dorna really does push 125s/250s as a spectacle, but can you blame them? They own those series, of course they put more weight on those championships versus a WSBK crown. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but am I to understand that you think a WSBK crown would be of higher value than a 250 title? Look at the riders on the MotoGP grid, surely there are more riders at the sharp end coming from a 250 background. It's hard to argue against that.
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Unless we're talking about DMG.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jun 27 2008, 05:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The point is that the 250cc machines are two strokes(very narrow powerband). One must be able to extract every ounce of power without the use of electronics to be successful. The rider needs to be very precise to ride a 250cc two stroke fast; there is no torque to cover errors.
If you have any doubts about the importance of the 250cc world championship, just have a look at the dominant riders in MotoGP(and even WSBK). Take a look at the list: Troy Bayliss, Valentino Rossi, Max Biaggi, Loris Capirossi, Dani Pedrosa, Casey Stoner, Marco Melandri(the list goes on!)...all successful former 250cc racers.
The two stroke engine is not so easily tamed, so the role of the rider is very important in 250cc racing.
I agree with you but wasn't Bayliss a late bloomer who came up club racing 600s then straight to Superbikes? I could be wrong here (and very likely am) but I don't recall Bayliss riding 250s.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jun 27 2008, 09:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Even some American fans have gotten a taste for the red juice.
I agree wholeheartedly that Dorna really does push 125s/250s as a spectacle, but can you blame them? They own those series, of course they put more weight on those championships versus a WSBK crown. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but am I to understand that you think a WSBK crown would be of higher value than a 250 title? Look at the riders on the MotoGP grid, surely there are more riders at the sharp end coming from a 250 background. It's hard to argue against that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l13eaw @ Jun 27 2008, 04:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok then does anyone not think that it is probably actually .... loads harder to win a world championship on either 125 cc or 250 cc, just because the bikes are more evenly matched and there are .... loads on the grid?
All those who spout on about Rossi's 7 WC titles include his former years. Why should Melandri be any different in that respect?
A WC is a WC no matter what the class. Your still the best on the grid at that time, end of.
Bikes are evenly more evenly matched, pffft
. That could be another thread. But I strongly disagree. One point, Dovinsioso's Honda vs Lorenzo's Aprilla. etc...
All those who spout on about Rossi's 7 WC titles include his former years. Why should Melandri be any different in that respect?
A WC is a WC no matter what the class. Your still the best on the grid at that time, end of.
Bikes are evenly more evenly matched, pffft
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jun 27 2008, 07:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree wholeheartedly that Dorna really does push 125s/250s as a spectacle, but can you blame them? They own those series, of course they put more weight on those championships versus a WSBK crown. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but am I to understand that you think a WSBK crown would be of higher value than a 250 title? Look at the riders on the MotoGP grid, surely there are more riders at the sharp end coming from a 250 background. It's hard to argue against that.
No, I don't blame DORNA at all, it's their job to market. However, I do think the illusion of superiority in the GP series is created by somewhat underhanded techniques that supersede their marketing plans.
I do think that WSBK is a higher honor than 250 b/c of the nature of the competition. In WSBK you are hired to ride a bike and you get tossed into the deep end--sink or swim. In 125/250 the children have handlers. The handlers are supposed to be training them, grooming them, and modifying them for competition in the premier class. DORNA brokers deals that land these kids on the best bikes, with the best outfits to groom them to be boosted into a similar situation in GP. It helps proliferate the MYTH that 250 riders are superior; therefore, the GP series has the best talent.
Until the arrival of Rossi, the best of the 250 class was routinely beaten by riders from other series. Since Rossi's arrival, CVC/DORNA have done an excellent job using legitimate and illegitimate techniques to improve the competitive environment in the lower classes.
Congrats to DORNA, they've aired almost all of their dirty laundry, and people still give them a free pass. That's power.
No, I don't blame DORNA at all, it's their job to market. However, I do think the illusion of superiority in the GP series is created by somewhat underhanded techniques that supersede their marketing plans.
I do think that WSBK is a higher honor than 250 b/c of the nature of the competition. In WSBK you are hired to ride a bike and you get tossed into the deep end--sink or swim. In 125/250 the children have handlers. The handlers are supposed to be training them, grooming them, and modifying them for competition in the premier class. DORNA brokers deals that land these kids on the best bikes, with the best outfits to groom them to be boosted into a similar situation in GP. It helps proliferate the MYTH that 250 riders are superior; therefore, the GP series has the best talent.
Until the arrival of Rossi, the best of the 250 class was routinely beaten by riders from other series. Since Rossi's arrival, CVC/DORNA have done an excellent job using legitimate and illegitimate techniques to improve the competitive environment in the lower classes.
Congrats to DORNA, they've aired almost all of their dirty laundry, and people still give them a free pass. That's power.
Austin
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jun 27 2008, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No, I don't blame DORNA at all, it's their job to market. However, I do think the illusion of superiority in the GP series is created by somewhat underhanded techniques that supersede their marketing plans.
I do think that WSBK is a higher honor than 250 b/c of the nature of the competition. In WSBK you are hired to ride a bike and you get tossed into the deep end--sink or swim. In 125/250 the children have handlers. The handlers are supposed to be training them, grooming them, and modifying them for competition in the premier class. DORNA brokers deals that land these kids on the best bikes, with the best outfits to groom them to be boosted into a similar situation in GP. It helps proliferate the MYTH that 250 riders are superior; therefore, the GP series has the best talent.
Until the arrival of Rossi, the best of the 250 class was routinely beaten by riders from other series. Since Rossi's arrival, CVC/DORNA have done an excellent job using legitimate and illegitimate techniques to improve the competitive environment in the lower classes.
Congrats to DORNA, they've aired almost all of their dirty laundry, and people still give them a free pass. That's power.
I really enjoy World Superbikes, I'm actually a convert to MotoGP from WSB so take that for what it's worth. But would it be so far fetched as to say that with the arrival of riders like Rossi, Biaggi and Capirossi, younger riders saw them coming up through the 125/250 ranks and decided that was the way to go? And with those riders coming through 125/250s and becoming top riders in MotoGP, more young riders have and will continue to go through 125/250 because Stoner did it, because Rossi did it, because Capirossi did it and so on.
I'm sorry I'm rambling but do you understand my point? So many of the top riders in the class have come through that it has become the 'proven' fast track to MotoGP. Thus, the best young riders are going to want the best chance to get to MotoGP and if 125/250 is the 'proven' fast track to MotoGP, then that is where they will go. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way.
And that's not to take away from other disciplines. I really enjoy watching Hayden ride and think he is a top class rider. I don't think Toseland and Edwards are quite there as far as entertainment value but I think both are also top class riders.
Sorry to ramble so much while making very few (if any) logical points. Hope this gets across to someone.
I do think that WSBK is a higher honor than 250 b/c of the nature of the competition. In WSBK you are hired to ride a bike and you get tossed into the deep end--sink or swim. In 125/250 the children have handlers. The handlers are supposed to be training them, grooming them, and modifying them for competition in the premier class. DORNA brokers deals that land these kids on the best bikes, with the best outfits to groom them to be boosted into a similar situation in GP. It helps proliferate the MYTH that 250 riders are superior; therefore, the GP series has the best talent.
Until the arrival of Rossi, the best of the 250 class was routinely beaten by riders from other series. Since Rossi's arrival, CVC/DORNA have done an excellent job using legitimate and illegitimate techniques to improve the competitive environment in the lower classes.
Congrats to DORNA, they've aired almost all of their dirty laundry, and people still give them a free pass. That's power.
I really enjoy World Superbikes, I'm actually a convert to MotoGP from WSB so take that for what it's worth. But would it be so far fetched as to say that with the arrival of riders like Rossi, Biaggi and Capirossi, younger riders saw them coming up through the 125/250 ranks and decided that was the way to go? And with those riders coming through 125/250s and becoming top riders in MotoGP, more young riders have and will continue to go through 125/250 because Stoner did it, because Rossi did it, because Capirossi did it and so on.
I'm sorry I'm rambling but do you understand my point? So many of the top riders in the class have come through that it has become the 'proven' fast track to MotoGP. Thus, the best young riders are going to want the best chance to get to MotoGP and if 125/250 is the 'proven' fast track to MotoGP, then that is where they will go. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way.
And that's not to take away from other disciplines. I really enjoy watching Hayden ride and think he is a top class rider. I don't think Toseland and Edwards are quite there as far as entertainment value but I think both are also top class riders.
Sorry to ramble so much while making very few (if any) logical points. Hope this gets across to someone.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jun 27 2008, 05:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I really enjoy World Superbikes, I'm actually a convert to MotoGP from WSB so take that for what it's worth. But would it be so far fetched as to say that with the arrival of riders like Rossi, Biaggi and Capirossi, younger riders saw them coming up through the 125/250 ranks and decided that was the way to go? And with those riders coming through 125/250s and becoming top riders in MotoGP, more young riders have and will continue to go through 125/250 because Stoner did it, because Rossi did it, because Capirossi did it and so on.
I'm sorry I'm rambling but do you understand my point? So many of the top riders in the class have come through that it has become the 'proven' fast track to MotoGP. Thus, the best young riders are going to want the best chance to get to MotoGP and if 125/250 is the 'proven' fast track to MotoGP, then that is where they will go. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way.
And that's not to take away from other disciplines. I really enjoy watching Hayden ride and think he is a top class rider. I don't think Toseland and Edwards are quite there as far as entertainment value but I think both are also top class riders.
Sorry to ramble so much while making very few (if any) logical points. Hope this gets across to someone.
perfect sense to me.
WSB/WSS/BSB/BSS = long way to the top.
250/125cc = shorter way to the top.
?
I'm sorry I'm rambling but do you understand my point? So many of the top riders in the class have come through that it has become the 'proven' fast track to MotoGP. Thus, the best young riders are going to want the best chance to get to MotoGP and if 125/250 is the 'proven' fast track to MotoGP, then that is where they will go. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way.
And that's not to take away from other disciplines. I really enjoy watching Hayden ride and think he is a top class rider. I don't think Toseland and Edwards are quite there as far as entertainment value but I think both are also top class riders.
Sorry to ramble so much while making very few (if any) logical points. Hope this gets across to someone.
perfect sense to me.
WSB/WSS/BSB/BSS = long way to the top.
250/125cc = shorter way to the top.
?
Austin
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Jun 27 2008, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>perfect sense to me.
WSB/WSS/BSB/BSS = long way to the top.
250/125cc = shorter way to the top.
?
Yes, although I would place 250 and WSB very close to even. Although 250 has a slight edge. So I guess a hierarchy would look something like this:
MotoGP
250
World Superbikes
AMA Superbike, BSB
125, WSS
AMA Supersport, BSS
WSB/WSS/BSB/BSS = long way to the top.
250/125cc = shorter way to the top.
?
Yes, although I would place 250 and WSB very close to even. Although 250 has a slight edge. So I guess a hierarchy would look something like this:
MotoGP
250
World Superbikes
AMA Superbike, BSB
125, WSS
AMA Supersport, BSS
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Jun 27 2008, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>perfect sense to me.
WSB/WSS/BSB/BSS = long way to the top.
250/125cc = shorter way to the top.
?
and to a large extent proven to be the route to become a more successful motogp rider, so if motogp was your goal as a young kid starting out you would turn to the formula that had the best results.
WSB/WSS/BSB/BSS = long way to the top.
250/125cc = shorter way to the top.
?
and to a large extent proven to be the route to become a more successful motogp rider, so if motogp was your goal as a young kid starting out you would turn to the formula that had the best results.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Jun 27 2008, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>250 is harder to win than motogp? what planet are you on? if rossi, stoner, pedrosa and horhey were in 250cc kalio wouldnt have a chance
Yeah, and where have they all come from you fool
Yeah, and where have they all come from you fool
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 27 2008, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and to a large extent proven to be the route to become a more successful motogp rider, so if motogp was your goal as a young kid starting out you would turn to the formula that had the best results.
This is what I'm saying is the myth. ^^^^^
Young potential competitors are spotted early on by Dorna. Many of them may not even be that talented but they come from a good market and Dorna is willing to give them a shot. Dorna connects these kids with the best handlers and the best machines and then locates them at the proper venues. Dorna continues to broker deals to land the prospective riders and their handlers on the best teams with the best equipment all the way to the premier class. This model fails to serve 99% of the talent they attract so GP is not a shortcut unless you are one of the chosen few.
The point of 250 is to manufacturer top quality riders. The faux competition is simply a way to benchmark the students against one another so DORNA can decide which students to cut loose and which students to take on. The 250 titles are just accolades to put on your resume so you appear to be deserving of a ride, but they are half-earned by the individual, half-granted by DORNA. Credence is lent to the 250 title, by boosting the title winner onto a world class machine. Success in the premier class is highly likely, so it gives the appearance that the earlier titles were legitimately earned by talent and racecraft.
In summation:
Q: Are 250 riders the best in the world?
A: Probably. They've been trained by the best, on the world's best circuits since they were kids.
Q: Are the 250 titles they've won legitimate?
A: Probably not. They've been given preferential treatment since they were young based (at least partially) on their nationality and the appeal they have to their national fan base. The title is just a merit badge to signify the conclusion of their training and to justify the ludicrous ride DORNA is about to hand them.
WSBK is currently without a title-contending American. Are they dying to boost an undeserving national rider onto a hot bike to increase viewership? NOPE! More power to them.
This is what I'm saying is the myth. ^^^^^
Young potential competitors are spotted early on by Dorna. Many of them may not even be that talented but they come from a good market and Dorna is willing to give them a shot. Dorna connects these kids with the best handlers and the best machines and then locates them at the proper venues. Dorna continues to broker deals to land the prospective riders and their handlers on the best teams with the best equipment all the way to the premier class. This model fails to serve 99% of the talent they attract so GP is not a shortcut unless you are one of the chosen few.
The point of 250 is to manufacturer top quality riders. The faux competition is simply a way to benchmark the students against one another so DORNA can decide which students to cut loose and which students to take on. The 250 titles are just accolades to put on your resume so you appear to be deserving of a ride, but they are half-earned by the individual, half-granted by DORNA. Credence is lent to the 250 title, by boosting the title winner onto a world class machine. Success in the premier class is highly likely, so it gives the appearance that the earlier titles were legitimately earned by talent and racecraft.
In summation:
Q: Are 250 riders the best in the world?
A: Probably. They've been trained by the best, on the world's best circuits since they were kids.
Q: Are the 250 titles they've won legitimate?
A: Probably not. They've been given preferential treatment since they were young based (at least partially) on their nationality and the appeal they have to their national fan base. The title is just a merit badge to signify the conclusion of their training and to justify the ludicrous ride DORNA is about to hand them.
WSBK is currently without a title-contending American. Are they dying to boost an undeserving national rider onto a hot bike to increase viewership? NOPE! More power to them.
This is totally off topic but anyway ...
And IMO totally ........, every championship owner (DORNA, Flamini, F1, NASCAR etc ...) tries to fiddle a bit with the competition to extract maximum profit. WSBK is no different from MotoGP Who the hell pays Biaggi's salary!!!! The Flamini brothers because they know his presence multiplies their income in Italy.
Dorna will make sure the most important markets are well represented in MotoGP having some token riders, but the economical effect of 250cc is negligible, the guys fighting there got there after passing a brutal filter called 125cc world championship and they are all damm good riders and surely deserve the title if the win it. IMO they are the most deserving champions in bike racing nowadays since there's a bunch of similar performing bikes fitted with equal tyres and no electronic aids.
And IMO totally ........, every championship owner (DORNA, Flamini, F1, NASCAR etc ...) tries to fiddle a bit with the competition to extract maximum profit. WSBK is no different from MotoGP Who the hell pays Biaggi's salary!!!! The Flamini brothers because they know his presence multiplies their income in Italy.
Dorna will make sure the most important markets are well represented in MotoGP having some token riders, but the economical effect of 250cc is negligible, the guys fighting there got there after passing a brutal filter called 125cc world championship and they are all damm good riders and surely deserve the title if the win it. IMO they are the most deserving champions in bike racing nowadays since there's a bunch of similar performing bikes fitted with equal tyres and no electronic aids.
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I don't have time to chime in with an elaborate explanation, but I think for the most part, I agree with 95% of Lex's argument about the 125/250 vs. WSBK/AMA debate.
Let me say first off that both sides obviously 'prefer' one or the other, so please, its no disrespect to those who think these lower classes are superior--Sorry Rog & Liz, and who ever else (I respect your well thought out opinion). (And, just because we may 'prefer' it, doesn't mean we don't follow the lower classes or have a fair idea what they are about (we do get coverage, just not like you guys; live & timely, trust me, we envy you on this). So having said that, I agree that the lower classes are legit but not to the point of saying they are 'any more' legit than WSBK/AMA titles.
Lets remember, this debate got started in reference to Marco Melandri in regards to his credentials as a deserving MotoGP regular. So for the record, he does merit his MotoGP status as a top world class rider. I think in particular, the reference was whether he had the 'stuff' of a ‘premier’ class champion (which ‘premier’ should mean a bit more). Somebody put it like this here in this thread--as a "real" ‘world champion’. Well this "real world" tag seems to have sparked off this debate. Lately, I'm leaning towards he does not have the 'stuff' to be a ‘premier’ class champ, but I don't think this in reference to his work ethic, and certainly NOT because I don't think his lower class championship is worthy or legitimate. I'm playing the physiologist card and I'm going to say, he seems a bit too soft mentally. (NO, I' not a mind reader or learned physiologist, so please put away your rebuttal). But simply speculating (as we all do) from his interviews, his mannerism when frustrated, his honest and open diary entries, and frankly his unprofessional tantrums that he has displayed, to me seem to indicated a rather immature man. In short, I think he lacks the character to perform under tremendous pressure unique in the ‘premier’ class (which is special) for an entire season as has been displayed by recent champions Rossi, Hayden, and Stoner. I think when faced with adversity, he crumbles a bit, and has difficulty bouncing back or working through the problem. Again, for those of his fans (save the flames BG, I count myself as one) its just how he has come across to me in the last year.
So back to the subtopic debate: Since the standard of comparison seems to be made in reference to who is successful in MotoGP, well there is a rather a simple explanation for this for the lower classes to have success in the premier class. The 125/250 riders are reared in the MotoGP 'system'. That means exposure to development, tracks, mentorships, and all things MotoGP, etc. So really, is it any wonder they fully understand what to expect and how to be successful in MotoGP? After all, only the best graduate to the premier class! I've said it before, but I suppose its fitting here to say that I believe if you took any (yes including Rossi, the current standard of greatness) and put them into the AMA/WSBK, I doubt they would win a title outright (as one might think). Obviously this is just a matter of opinion, if you disagree, that's fine, we'll probably never know. But imagine, they would have to get use to bikes that are heavier, power characteristics, more power (at the moment), faster bikes (in a line), track layouts, the superbike system of things, different tires (this is huge), etc., etc. They would have to compete with pretty good riders who know all this already.
In brief, both WSBK/AMA are as legit and deserving of merit as 250s. This is not to say by legit that they are equal. I personally would exclude 125s as they are no more than a rookies cup to me (my opinion, you may disagree—of course you would be wrong though). Now this brings me to the "WORLD" tag of my post. I’ve seen it written here before, and my buddy Rog again alluded to the tag given to some sports. Usually of course it pokes fun at the title “World” given to a ‘national’ sport. Well what makes it a “World” championship? I suppose just this question alone can get its own thread, but here is what I think. The title “world” should be conferred on a sport series that encompasses the “world’s” best at that level, not necessarily ‘around the world. Let me explain, if we have the world’s best athletes in one league, say Major League Baseball, here in the US. Then it would seem ok to call it a “World Series.” After all, the players are the ‘best’ in the world and come from many assorted countries that send their best. The problem I suspect some people have is that US MLB baseball is not played in international venues (except Canada—but who are we kidding, it more like a 51st State). But to me, so what, the ‘world’s’ best happen to all play here in out league. So I’m ok with the tag “World Series” of baseball.
Moreover, I am not so convinced that the 125 and even the 250 series is rightly a “world” championship because clearly, they are NOT the best ‘motorcycle racers’ in the world (otherwise they’d be in MotoGP/WSBK). They are more akin to compare as the baseball’s minor leagues. The minor leagues do have a championship series, but it’s not the “World Series”, and that makes sense. They are not in the major leagues! So I’m not fond of calling 125/250 “World” championships, and I usually don’t refer to them this way. Are they significant? Yes. Are they considered in par to a MotoGP or WSBK championship, I think not.
Anyway, so much for not having time to chime in and elaborate….
Let me say first off that both sides obviously 'prefer' one or the other, so please, its no disrespect to those who think these lower classes are superior--Sorry Rog & Liz, and who ever else (I respect your well thought out opinion). (And, just because we may 'prefer' it, doesn't mean we don't follow the lower classes or have a fair idea what they are about (we do get coverage, just not like you guys; live & timely, trust me, we envy you on this). So having said that, I agree that the lower classes are legit but not to the point of saying they are 'any more' legit than WSBK/AMA titles.
Lets remember, this debate got started in reference to Marco Melandri in regards to his credentials as a deserving MotoGP regular. So for the record, he does merit his MotoGP status as a top world class rider. I think in particular, the reference was whether he had the 'stuff' of a ‘premier’ class champion (which ‘premier’ should mean a bit more). Somebody put it like this here in this thread--as a "real" ‘world champion’. Well this "real world" tag seems to have sparked off this debate. Lately, I'm leaning towards he does not have the 'stuff' to be a ‘premier’ class champ, but I don't think this in reference to his work ethic, and certainly NOT because I don't think his lower class championship is worthy or legitimate. I'm playing the physiologist card and I'm going to say, he seems a bit too soft mentally. (NO, I' not a mind reader or learned physiologist, so please put away your rebuttal). But simply speculating (as we all do) from his interviews, his mannerism when frustrated, his honest and open diary entries, and frankly his unprofessional tantrums that he has displayed, to me seem to indicated a rather immature man. In short, I think he lacks the character to perform under tremendous pressure unique in the ‘premier’ class (which is special) for an entire season as has been displayed by recent champions Rossi, Hayden, and Stoner. I think when faced with adversity, he crumbles a bit, and has difficulty bouncing back or working through the problem. Again, for those of his fans (save the flames BG, I count myself as one) its just how he has come across to me in the last year.
So back to the subtopic debate: Since the standard of comparison seems to be made in reference to who is successful in MotoGP, well there is a rather a simple explanation for this for the lower classes to have success in the premier class. The 125/250 riders are reared in the MotoGP 'system'. That means exposure to development, tracks, mentorships, and all things MotoGP, etc. So really, is it any wonder they fully understand what to expect and how to be successful in MotoGP? After all, only the best graduate to the premier class! I've said it before, but I suppose its fitting here to say that I believe if you took any (yes including Rossi, the current standard of greatness) and put them into the AMA/WSBK, I doubt they would win a title outright (as one might think). Obviously this is just a matter of opinion, if you disagree, that's fine, we'll probably never know. But imagine, they would have to get use to bikes that are heavier, power characteristics, more power (at the moment), faster bikes (in a line), track layouts, the superbike system of things, different tires (this is huge), etc., etc. They would have to compete with pretty good riders who know all this already.
In brief, both WSBK/AMA are as legit and deserving of merit as 250s. This is not to say by legit that they are equal. I personally would exclude 125s as they are no more than a rookies cup to me (my opinion, you may disagree—of course you would be wrong though). Now this brings me to the "WORLD" tag of my post. I’ve seen it written here before, and my buddy Rog again alluded to the tag given to some sports. Usually of course it pokes fun at the title “World” given to a ‘national’ sport. Well what makes it a “World” championship? I suppose just this question alone can get its own thread, but here is what I think. The title “world” should be conferred on a sport series that encompasses the “world’s” best at that level, not necessarily ‘around the world. Let me explain, if we have the world’s best athletes in one league, say Major League Baseball, here in the US. Then it would seem ok to call it a “World Series.” After all, the players are the ‘best’ in the world and come from many assorted countries that send their best. The problem I suspect some people have is that US MLB baseball is not played in international venues (except Canada—but who are we kidding, it more like a 51st State). But to me, so what, the ‘world’s’ best happen to all play here in out league. So I’m ok with the tag “World Series” of baseball.
Moreover, I am not so convinced that the 125 and even the 250 series is rightly a “world” championship because clearly, they are NOT the best ‘motorcycle racers’ in the world (otherwise they’d be in MotoGP/WSBK). They are more akin to compare as the baseball’s minor leagues. The minor leagues do have a championship series, but it’s not the “World Series”, and that makes sense. They are not in the major leagues! So I’m not fond of calling 125/250 “World” championships, and I usually don’t refer to them this way. Are they significant? Yes. Are they considered in par to a MotoGP or WSBK championship, I think not.
Anyway, so much for not having time to chime in and elaborate….
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jun 28 2008, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Unless we're talking about DMG.
I agree with you but wasn't Bayliss a late bloomer who came up club racing 600s then straight to Superbikes? I could be wrong here (and very likely am) but I don't recall Bayliss riding 250s.
I agree wholeheartedly that Dorna really does push 125s/250s as a spectacle, but can you blame them? They own those series, of course they put more weight on those championships versus a WSBK crown. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but am I to understand that you think a WSBK crown would be of higher value than a 250 title? Look at the riders on the MotoGP grid, surely there are more riders at the sharp end coming from a 250 background. It's hard to argue against that.
Bayliss had his first GP ride at Phillip Island on a 250cc , he was up the front and finished 4th or was it 6th ,cant remember now but it brought him to the attention of the competing teams.
I agree with you but wasn't Bayliss a late bloomer who came up club racing 600s then straight to Superbikes? I could be wrong here (and very likely am) but I don't recall Bayliss riding 250s.
I agree wholeheartedly that Dorna really does push 125s/250s as a spectacle, but can you blame them? They own those series, of course they put more weight on those championships versus a WSBK crown. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but am I to understand that you think a WSBK crown would be of higher value than a 250 title? Look at the riders on the MotoGP grid, surely there are more riders at the sharp end coming from a 250 background. It's hard to argue against that.
Bayliss had his first GP ride at Phillip Island on a 250cc , he was up the front and finished 4th or was it 6th ,cant remember now but it brought him to the attention of the competing teams.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 27 2008, 04:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Moreover, I am not so convinced that the 125 and even the 250 series is rightly a “world” championship because clearly, they are NOT the best ‘motorcycle racers’ in the world
good post jumkie. but the 125s & 250s are absolutely world championships. they are by far the best 125 & 250 riders in the world from around the world.
good post jumkie. but the 125s & 250s are absolutely world championships. they are by far the best 125 & 250 riders in the world from around the world.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Jun 27 2008, 05:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>good post jumkie. but the 125s & 250s are absolutely world championships. they are by far the best 125 & 250 riders in the world from around the world.
They are the best because DORNA engineered them to be that way. The riders are unbelievably talented, the series they race in is a pointless joke.
They are the best because DORNA engineered them to be that way. The riders are unbelievably talented, the series they race in is a pointless joke.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jun 28 2008, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with you but wasn't Bayliss a late bloomer who came up club racing 600s then straight to Superbikes? I could be wrong here (and very likely am) but I don't recall Bayliss riding 250s.
I remember Bayliss had a one off 250 ride at the Oz GP in the mid 90's which got him noticed (and he went to BSB the next year). Maybe it was 97?! Anyway he was awesome for someone who never ridden that class of bike before. I'm sure he finished in the top 5 or 6! I'm pretty sure it was on a Suzuki.
I remember Bayliss had a one off 250 ride at the Oz GP in the mid 90's which got him noticed (and he went to BSB the next year). Maybe it was 97?! Anyway he was awesome for someone who never ridden that class of bike before. I'm sure he finished in the top 5 or 6! I'm pretty sure it was on a Suzuki.
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