Marquez accused of cheating

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I understand the desire to .... the rich, I love the underdoggy too!! BUT, life lesson learned, being rich doen't make you an ......., being an ....... makes you an .......!! Relevancy to Marquez? Although I do not particularly like the little ...., especially since we took out Wilairot at 900 mph on a cool down lap, I do feel he (and Rossi, and Pedders) get unfairly accused of many foibles simply because of their perceived privilege. If Marc was a poor kid from Missouri or Manchester I wager we would only be debating his talent and when he will win at the premiere level, not questioning his integrity.
 
I understand the desire to .... the rich, I love the underdoggy too!! BUT, life lesson learned, being rich doen't make you an ......., being an ....... makes you an .......!! Relevancy to Marquez? Although I do not particularly like the little ...., especially since we took out Wilairot at 900 mph on a cool down lap, I do feel he (and Rossi, and Pedders) get unfairly accused of many foibles simply because of their perceived privilege. If Marc was a poor kid from Missouri or Manchester I wager we would only be debating his talent and when he will win at the premiere level, not questioning his integrity.

Exactly.



I don't know marquez's story but he seems to have performed at every level, if he is really good which seems likely then good luck to him. He does seem prone to rashness on occasion, mainly in practice, with at least 2 incidents which were actually rather than potentially dangerous, and I agree he should be reprimanded for such things however good he is .



I don't know that valentino's father was stupendously rich, but as in many professional sports his father's history in the sport may have got him early opportunities, which he seemed to grasp rather well. I think graziano is now famous for being valentino's father rather than for his own sporting career. I don't live in the USA, but there doesn't seem to be much talk that the manning boys' nfl championships are worthless because their father was a football player.
 
Very true, we would defend his bad manners as some kind of hunger borne of desperation and a need to prove himself.



And rich kids get that too, but the poor only have talent to succeed while we perceive the additional doors opened for the privileged to be an abomination that offends any sense of egalitarianism we may be possessed of.



He need only to impress his sponsors because I am reasonably confident he will never suffer the need to be loved by all which is in itself a symptom of standing too long on carpet that isn't nailed down.
 
I don't live in the USA, but there doesn't seem to be much talk that the manning boys' nfl championships are worthless because their father was a football player.
A very salient point. Privilege in NA football (basketball, baseball, hockey), especially with father being a former pro athlete starts at a very young age and continues through the teen years. The reality is no different than the Spanish MGP feeder system.
 
i have a lot of moto 2 recorded, i'll go back and do some burning if you wish and snail mail?



it is genuinely better than the other bikes.



Thanks for the offer Andy! Somebody from this board has been friendly enough to hook me up with acces to the moto2 races via internet, which is probably a cheaper option then snail mailing stuff form Australia to The Netherlands. Very cool offer though.
 
Thanks for the offer Andy! Somebody from this board has been friendly enough to hook me up with acces to the moto2 races via internet, which is probably a cheaper option then snail mailing stuff form Australia to The Netherlands. Very cool offer though.



Cool, it worked out for you which is spot on, the offer still stands in any case.
 
With you - I had to have an answer for Krop. Just being the Devil's Avocado.



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Thanks Mick.



I don´t like going around in circles. There has been ZERO proof of any tecnical wrongdoing on the part of MM team all year year. There have been countless claims for an unfair acceleration advantage, and top end bla bla that amounts to a bunch of bla bla bla that holds no water. This German claim is the latest. This "news" was not reported by any Spanish media that I am aware of. Not that it gives it more validity, but it surprises me that this info was not mentioned anywhere.



In the Marca article, Aspar explains the reasons for Marcs "acceleration advantage" and that his team has access to the telemetry of his bike. They can see that his engine is going much faster around the corners. The RPMS of Marc´s engine at at the end of the corner are key to his acceleration.



From my experience riding a bike, the higher the starting RPM, the faster the engine will accelerate till it gets to a certain point. 10.000 to 10.500 is faster than say 9500 to 10.000.



And realize that Aspar is not a teammember, manager or anything to Marc. He is the competition.
 
Thanks Mick.



I don´t like going around in circles. There has been ZERO proof of any tecnical wrongdoing on the part of MM team all year year. There have been countless claims for an unfair acceleration advantage, and top end bla bla that amounts to a bunch of bla bla bla that holds no water. This German claim is the latest. This "news" was not reported by any Spanish media that I am aware of. Not that it gives it more validity, but it surprises me that this info was not mentioned anywhere.



In the Marca article, Aspar explains the reasons for Marcs "acceleration advantage" and that his team has access to the telemetry of his bike. They can see that his engine is going much faster around the corners. The RPMS of Marc´s engine at at the end of the corner are key to his acceleration.



From my experience riding a bike, the higher the starting RPM, the faster the engine will accelerate till it gets to a certain point. 10.000 to 10.500 is faster than say 9500 to 10.000.



And realize that Aspar is not a teammember, manager or anything to Marc. He is the competition.

In a highly talented field of closely matched competitors with spec engines and spec tires its highly unlikely Marquez can simply run through corners with 500-1000rpm more engine speed every time. Thats massive, at this level I would expect 50 - 100 rpm maybe at most. This explanation appears far too simplistic. So he just holds the throttle open? The other riders must be thinking gee, why didnt I think of that. Its not a reasonable explanation.



Different gearing perhaps, but again the other teams and riders can quickly figure that out, they're not stupid. Possibly its a set-up thing. Perhaps he sets the bike up specifically for more weight bias on the rear tire to gain traction and advantage on the exit. But its a balancing act. Gaining an advantage on corner exit normally means some sacrifice on corner entry, otherwise they would all be doing it, so he must ride around any corner entry issues because he has that specific talent? This would be plausible, if it matched reality. In reality he looks similar to the others in corner speed, then gains the most when the bikes are all bolt upright, almost like he has an extra 500rpm. He even has to stick his head up out of the fairing to avoid overtaking when he wants to stay behind. Its unusual to see. So is that what the team let slip, he has 500rpm more to play with?



I dont notice a speed difference through corners anyway. If anything Espargaro looks to have the better corner speed. At Montegi he was making up heaps of ground on MM through one flowing section only to lose it all again down the straights. MM even looked back one time as if to say ha!, here comes a straight see you later.



Ive just witnessed the two at PI. Now while this is a fast track, its deceptive in not really being an out and out horsepower circuit. If anything they call it a riders circuit requiring a big set of balls to keep it pinned on the high speed sweepers. Espargaro left MM in his dust, no extra 500rpm in those corners.
 
( he is even smaller than dani pedrosa which is said to give dani a straightline advantage), and possibly elements of his riding style.



Dunno where you get that from.

Having spoken to them both, I can confidently say that Marquez suffers from Duck's Disease to a similar extent as I do. Whereas Dani makes me feel all grown up - A feeling he probably shares in relation to Sabbatini, the balding supershortarse seen scuttling around PI.
 
Dunno where you get that from.

Having spoken to them both, I can confidently say that Marquez suffers from Duck's Disease to a similar extent as I do. Whereas Dani makes me feel all grown up - A feeling he probably shares in relation to Sabbatini, the balding supershortarse seen scuttling around PI.

I read it somwhere, and from bradley smith who says he is uncompetitive in this formula because guys like marquez have such a weight advantage. If you have seen him in the flesh that is more reliable, and I have to say being as small as dani did seem unlikely.



The article on david emmett's site said if he is using a slick shifter that is not illegal, and is part of the potential for everyone even with the control ecu. In most spec motorsport series the better resourced teams still seem to be able to produce better equipment which could be what is happening here, as well as marquez being good of course.
 
In a highly talented field of closely matched competitors with spec engines and spec tires its highly unlikely Marquez can simply run through corners with 500-1000rpm more engine speed every time. Thats massive, at this level I would expect 50 - 100 rpm maybe at most. This explanation appears far too simplistic. So he just holds the throttle open? The other riders must be thinking gee, why didnt I think of that. Its not a reasonable explanation.



Different gearing perhaps, but again the other teams and riders can quickly figure that out, they're not stupid. Possibly its a set-up thing. Perhaps he sets the bike up specifically for more weight bias on the rear tire to gain traction and advantage on the exit. But its a balancing act. Gaining an advantage on corner exit normally means some sacrifice on corner entry, otherwise they would all be doing it, so he must ride around any corner entry issues because he has that specific talent? This would be plausible, if it matched reality. In reality he looks similar to the others in corner speed, then gains the most when the bikes are all bolt upright, almost like he has an extra 500rpm. He even has to stick his head up out of the fairing to avoid overtaking when he wants to stay behind. Its unusual to see. So is that what the team let slip, he has 500rpm more to play with?



I dont notice a speed difference through corners anyway. If anything Espargaro looks to have the better corner speed. At Montegi he was making up heaps of ground on MM through one flowing section only to lose it all again down the straights. MM even looked back one time as if to say ha!, here comes a straight see you later.



Ive just witnessed the two at PI. Now while this is a fast track, its deceptive in not really being an out and out horsepower circuit. If anything they call it a riders circuit requiring a big set of balls to keep it pinned on the high speed sweepers. Espargaro left MM in his dust, no extra 500rpm in those corners.



I agree. This corner speed things just doesn't pan out with what is happening on track. In my opinion it is all deflection from what is really happening.



I would agree that it is likely he has more rpm available.



Maybe Geo can do some analysis.
 
I agree. This corner speed things just doesn't pan out with what is happening on track. In my opinion it is all deflection from what is really happening.



I would agree that it is likely he has more rpm available.



Maybe Geo can do some analysis.

Why not weight, gearing, them getting the most that is possible out of the spec ecu etc?. Some nascar cars manage to be faster than others. Unless the conveyances are identical in every way from a common pool and changed every race the better resourced teams still seem to come up with better performance in many series, which I am not arguing is necessarily fair.
 
I read it somwhere, and from bradley smith who says he is uncompetitive in this formula because guys like marquez have such a weight advantage. If you have seen him in the flesh that is more reliable, and I have to say being as small as dani did seem unlikely.



The article on david emmett's site said if he is using a slick shifter that is not illegal, and is part of the potential for everyone even with the control ecu. In most spec motorsport series the better resourced teams still seem to be able to produce better equipment which could be what is happening here, as well as marquez being good of course.



Sorry, michaelm, wasn't intended as a direct shot at you, just a comment on how things differ from the Telly to bumping into people. Marquez is a skinny kid. Dani is a rather small man....No beef at all with Smith's comments particularly how he seems to have turned into a beanpole (normal sized...) [not to mention developing alopecia (not that being a ginger baldy changes corner entry speed, just hat-off photo opps]. Further, his disadvantage would be amplified by the use of a low-powered 'control' engine.



I agree on the resource thing. Krop keeps saying that the Suter chassis is .... compared to the Kalex. Which may or may not be true, but is Marquez's Suter ....? The way he rounds up people into corners would tend to decry that. He has a ton of advantages being in the team he's in, and his talent is there to see. The quickshifter thing is a complete furphy, if he's cheating, I'd be barking up a different tree to that one....like Geo Tech making damn sure engine #54 goes straight to the Caixa van.
 
Why not weight, gearing, them getting the most that is possible out of the spec ecu etc?. Some nascar cars manage to be faster than others. Unless the conveyances are identical in every way from a common pool and changed every race the better resourced teams still seem to come up with better performance in many series, which I am not arguing is necessarily fair.



Because he can get stood up in a corner get on the gas second and still power past down a straight. As said by others, gearing is hardly a mystery. If you can believe it is gearing then you would have to believe that every other team is full of muppets who don't deserve to be there. I am not sure but I doubt he is significantly lighter than the whole field.



Whether it is cheating or not I can't believe that he doesn't have something special in the engine department. I also doubt that he actively knows if he has an unfair advantage over the others. In other words if there is cheating going on then I don't believe Marquez himself is an active participant in the cheating.
 
He has a ton of advantages being in the team he's in, and his talent is there to see. The quickshifter thing is a complete furphy, if he's cheating, I'd be barking up a different tree to that one....like Geo Tech making damn sure engine #54 goes straight to the Caixa van.

Sure, far more credible, and also what is widely bruited about the pirelli control tyre in wsbk, with the lesser teams perhaps getting 2 year old ones. We all know all production engines are not the same. Is there actually a restriction on engine numbers, if not, his repsol funded team could possibly just try engines out till they find a good one.
 
In a highly talented field of closely matched competitors with spec engines and spec tires its highly unlikely Marquez can simply run through corners with 500-1000rpm more engine speed every time. Thats massive, at this level I would expect 50 - 100 rpm maybe at most. This explanation appears far too simplistic. So he just holds the throttle open? The other riders must be thinking gee, why didnt I think of that. Its not a reasonable explanation.



Different gearing perhaps, but again the other teams and riders can quickly figure that out, they're not stupid. Possibly its a set-up thing. Perhaps he sets the bike up specifically for more weight bias on the rear tire to gain traction and advantage on the exit. But its a balancing act. Gaining an advantage on corner exit normally means some sacrifice on corner entry, otherwise they would all be doing it, so he must ride around any corner entry issues because he has that specific talent? This would be plausible, if it matched reality. In reality he looks similar to the others in corner speed, then gains the most when the bikes are all bolt upright, almost like he has an extra 500rpm. He even has to stick his head up out of the fairing to avoid overtaking when he wants to stay behind. Its unusual to see. So is that what the team let slip, he has 500rpm more to play with?



I dont notice a speed difference through corners anyway. If anything Espargaro looks to have the better corner speed. At Montegi he was making up heaps of ground on MM through one flowing section only to lose it all again down the straights. MM even looked back one time as if to say ha!, here comes a straight see you later.



Ive just witnessed the two at PI. Now while this is a fast track, its deceptive in not really being an out and out horsepower circuit. If anything they call it a riders circuit requiring a big set of balls to keep it pinned on the high speed sweepers. Espargaro left MM in his dust, no extra 500rpm in those corners.



Basically what he said.



My opinion, they cheated, just didn't get caught. Thats the thing about cheating, its sneaky. Kropos article helps clear some things up, but it hardly clears up the obvious, which is a striking acceleration advantage.
 
Sure, far more credible, and also what is widely bruited about the pirelli control tyre in wsbk, with the lesser teams perhaps getting 2 year old ones. We all know all production engines are not the same. Is there actually a restriction on engine numbers, if not, his repsol funded team could possibly just try engines out till they find a good one.



No actual restriction on engine quantities, but the replacement of engines is determined by the "Championship Organisers"



From Ze Rulebook:

Regular maintenance, rebuilding and replacement of engines will be at the

sole discretion of the Championship Organisers, and on a schedule

determined by them.



Which appears to mean the FIM, since all the other Engine spec stuff, like Moto3 engine entries go through them...however... There is no specific mention in the rules of whom The Organisers are....<cue dramatic Dun-Duuuuuuun music here>
 
I am asking a perspective question...



In motogp they have the prototype bikes, with vastly different engines, multiple championship riders, including the like of Lorenzo and Stoner, God like characters.



Does anyone in that field go through corners with such a degree of difference, bearing in mind the engines aren't a standard engine such as the moto2 donk?



Is this paradigm common enough to be ignored or does this stick out like the proverbial sore thumb?







My point goes like this, if you take the top three on factory bikes (JL. DP and CS), how far does one have to travel back through the field to find that difference. Should it exist between riders 1-2-3? perhaps the whole of moto2 apart from MM are just duds?
 
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