Marc Marquez versus Casey Stoner

Just a few personal notes about Rossi-Ducati experience. Skip it if you want the topic related comment


People forget Yamaha and Honda made a huge step up in 2011, compared to 2010. Ducati remained the same.

Qatar 2010:
Hayden fought for the podium the whole race, always around 1-2 seconds from first position.
Qatar 2011:
Race: Hayden finished 11th 27s from first position.

People who don't want to understand this are simply delusional. You can blame Rossi for not being the fastest Ducati in some races, but nothing else. The bike was garbage, end.


Back on topic. MM had a much superior bike in 2013 and especially in 2014. I remember Bautista's 2013 corner entry putting all the Yamahas to shame. Honda struggled during the first part of 2015 and look at what Marquez did...
By the end of 2015, Honda was the fastest bike again.

I strongly believe Casey Stoner (without throwing away the season like in 2012) would have beaten MM this year, the past year and in 2013. But right now, I don't think he's in the best shape. I have no idea what to expect from him at philip island.

Jonix said:

Just a few personal notes about Rossi-Ducati experience. Skip it if you want the topic related comment


People forget Yamaha and Honda made a huge step up in 2011, compared to 2010. Ducati remained the same.

Qatar 2010:
Hayden fought for the podium the whole race, always around 1-2 seconds from first position.
Qatar 2011:
Race: Hayden finished 11th 27s from first position.

People who don't want to understand this are simply delusional. You can blame Rossi for not being the fastest Ducati in some races, but nothing else. The bike was garbage, end.


Back on topic. MM had a much superior bike in 2013 and especially in 2014. I remember Bautista's 2013 corner entry putting all the Yamahas to shame. Honda struggled during the first part of 2015 and look at what Marquez did...
By the end of 2015, Honda was the fastest bike again.

I strongly believe Casey Stoner (without throwing away the season like in 2012) would have beaten MM this year, the past year and in 2013. But right now, I don't think he's in the best shape. I have no idea what to expect from him at philip island.

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The bike was garbage in 2010 as well, and the only way to win on it involved a high risk of crashing it. Nevertheless Stoner did win late season races on it (the end of season bike rather than the bike which started the season at Qatar), and got second in the last race of the season, setting a best time something like 1.5 seconds faster in practice for that race than Rossi's best time in testing 2 days later at the same track in the end of season test.

michaelm said:

The bike was garbage in 2010 as well, and the only way to win on it involved a high risk of crashing it. Nevertheless Stoner did win late season races on it (the end of season bike rather than the bike which started the season at Qatar), and got second in the last race of the season, setting a best time something like 1.5 seconds faster in practice for that race than Rossi's best time in testing 2 days later at the same track in the end of season test.

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That's true. But the real gap wasn't really 1.5 seconds. you are comparing the time set during a race weekend from one of the fastest riders ever on a bike he knew pretty well to a broken rider (yes, Rossi in 2010 was not really healthy) who tried the bike for the first time during off season tests..

So, Lorenzo did a 1.30.0 during QP at valencia these year, while he did 1.31.7 the day after. Is Lorenzo 2016 a noob? :ninja:

Jonix said:

That's true. But the real gap wasn't really 1.5 seconds. you are comparing the time set during a race weekend from one of the fastest riders ever on a bike he knew pretty well to a broken rider (yes, Rossi in 2010 was not really healthy) who tried the bike for the first time during off season tests..

So, Lorenzo did a 1.30.0 during QP at valencia these year, while he did 1.31.7 the day after. Is Lorenzo 2016 a noob? :ninja:

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I think it is difficult to over-estimate what Stoner did on the Ducati, particularly the 2010 version. Both Rossi and Burgess are on the record as saying VR couldn't replicate what Stoner did on the bike especially to get it through corners, which Burgess said basically involved almost crashing the bike in every corner.

I am not strongly disposed to go all out Stoner vs Rossi on this one though, my main point was that it is harsh to criticise Stoner for not "battling" on the bike when what he was doing to get it through corners was close to impossible in the first place.

MigsAngel said:

MM without question....

MM is more mentally prepared to fight and enjoys racing....Casey could fight but it became clearer and clearer he didnt enjoy racing toward the end of his career....

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As I recall it wasn't racing per se that he was unenthusiastic about. It was the politics, poor enforcement and lack of common sense by RD, Rossi fans booing and spitting and the endless promotional appearances.

I appreciate more what Stoner did between 2008 and 2010 than the WC in 2007. 2007 Ducati and bridgestone were unbeatable, bike was a rocket.
He didn't win the title the following years but I appreciated it more..if it makes sense.

I doubt MM would have done the same with that bike. Yes, MM likes to fight and Casey doesn't but if you get away with speed you don't need to fight much..

About Casey Stoner:"enters the track, makes the track record on second lap, and you say '....'"
- Valentino Rossi
This sums it up

Jonix said:

I appreciate more what Stoner did between 2008 and 2010 than the WC in 2007. 2007 Ducati and bridgestone were unbeatable, bike was a rocket.
He didn't win the title the following years but I appreciated it more..if it makes sense.

I doubt MM would have done the same with that bike. Yes, MM likes to fight and Casey doesn't but if you get away with speed you don't need to fight much..

About Casey Stoner:"enters the track, makes the track record on second lap, and you say '....'"
- Valentino Rossi
This sums it up

Click to expand...

Casey doesn't like to fight???? Really? News to me.

Jonix said:

I appreciate more what Stoner did between 2008 and 2010 than the WC in 2007. 2007 Ducati and bridgestone were unbeatable, bike was a rocket.
He didn't win the title the following years but I appreciated it more..if it makes sense.

I doubt MM would have done the same with that bike. Yes, MM likes to fight and Casey doesn't but if you get away with speed you don't need to fight much..

About Casey Stoner:"enters the track, makes the track record on second lap, and you say '....'"
- Valentino Rossi
This sums it up

Click to expand...

+1 from me on Keshav's comment.

Careless repeating of unsubstantiated, disposable comments is not productive.

Jonix said:

I appreciate more what Stoner did between 2008 and 2010 than the WC in 2007. 2007 Ducati and bridgestone were unbeatable, bike was a rocket.

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See, here is the thing (and it has been said many many many times)

If as you say, the Ducati and Bridgestone were unbeatable ......... then how did they get beaten?

Further, if the Ducati and Bridgestone were unbeatable, how come the wins were not more evenly shared?

I do not disagree that the Ducati was fast .............. but then so was the 2015 Ducati and yet we do not see the subtle diminishing of a riders achievements.

Fact/opinion remains that in 2007, CS was the difference (this is a fact borne out by the pure results as the other Ducati of Capirossi won a lone race for the season) and yet we continue to see the argument about the straight line speed, which admittedly is an advantage at some tracks.

But I will ask you today that which I have asked before and rarely get an answer - if speed is the critical thing as some seem to attest in their recollections of 2007, why do they not race drag bikes which are faster still?

The answer is that speed is but one component as handling is as critical and at some tracks will be more crucial to a result and in 2007, that Ducati did not handle but was made to work by a certain Casey Stoner due to his skills, ability, determination and outright style. He was the difference that gave Ducati their world championship and as history showed ....... even 'goat' in rider and team engineer terms could not come close

The top speed factor was overblown in 2007, the reason why he was rocketing past riders coming down the straights was because he didn't lean as much through the corners, therefore having more rubber connecting the bike to the track thus allowing him to accelerate earlier, he was blasting past way before top speed was a factor.

Some riders like to overtake going into the corners, some do it coming out of the corners, Stoner was the latter.

Jonix said:

So, Lorenzo did a 1.30.0 during QP at valencia these year, while he did 1.31.7 the day after. Is Lorenzo 2016 a noob? :ninja:

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Uh no, different bike with different tires and different electronics.


Oh yea, post championship hangover as well. Lol

Jonix said:

I appreciate more what Stoner did between 2008 and 2010 than the WC in 2007. 2007 Ducati and bridgestone were unbeatable, bike was a rocket.
He didn't win the title the following years but I appreciated it more..if it makes sense.

I doubt MM would have done the same with that bike. Yes, MM likes to fight and Casey doesn't but if you get away with speed you don't need to fight much..

About Casey Stoner:"enters the track, makes the track record on second lap, and you say '....'"
- Valentino Rossi
This sums it up

Click to expand...

Gaz beat me to it. But I cannot agree that the 2007 Ducati was 'Unbeatable'.

As Gaz said, Stoner made the difference. Capirossi won one wet/dry race through sheer good judgement on a tyre change and only finished on the podium another two times.

Unbeatable to me is the 2014/15 Mercedes F1 car. A car in which both drivers are usually 1st and second in each race, a car which any number of current drivers could step into and get it finishing 1st or 2nd. That's unbeatable. We all know that the 07-10 Ducati burned 3 world champions (Capirossi, Melandri and Hayden) while Casey Stoner was winning races on it.

#22 said:

Gaz beat me to it. But I cannot agree that the 2007 Ducati was 'Unbeatable'.

As Gaz said, Stoner made the difference.

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More to the point, the guy who designed the thing also said this.

#22 said:

Gaz beat me to it. But I cannot agree that the 2007 Ducati was 'Unbeatable'.

As Gaz said, Stoner made the difference.

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ANYONE, who disputes that is not being true to themselves , or is just plain ignorant when it comes to Moto GP.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stoner didn't make the difference!! He did make a huge difference. But on long tracks Ducati-Stoner-Bridgestone were unbeatable..this is what I'm saying. Watch the Qatar race or Shangai.
Difference of 20+ Km/h and you have to balance it during the corners..not easy if you are dealing with Casey Stoner. He made turn the Duc very well too

But or they were beaten.

Capirossi/Stoner were not 1/2 in each of those races in 2007 were they (fact - that only happened once in the year)

Qatar.
Stoner 1st
Capirossi DNF

FWIW - Rossi 2nd / Pedrosa third

Next best Ducati - Alex Barros in 9th



Shanghai.
Stoner 1st
Capirossi 6th

FWIW - Rossi 2nd / Hopkins third

Next best Ducati - Alex Barros in 9th


In fact.

There were 7 races that year not won by a Ducati - which is actually the same number of races won as Yamaha in 2015 where there is NO discussion surrounding the bike having so influenced the championship

Rossi beat Stoner 4 times that year - Jerez, Mugello (a circuit with a long straight, surely the Ducati speed would have been useful), Assen (if only we had the 'old' Assen) and Portugal.

Capirossi on the OTHER factory Ducati beat Stoner 2 times - Germany and Japan (but this was the race where Stoner only needed 7th to win the title)

Barros on a Ducati beat Stoner once at Mugello so maybe it was his turn for the afterburners

The ONLY race where Ducati were 1st and 2nd during the season was actually Phillip Island.

So to me, when you look at the figures, no matter what one says of the Ducati nitrous injected turbosedici, only one rider seemed to be consistently quick on the machine. That year two other world champions rode it to a combination of 1 win, 2 seconds and 2 thirds from a combined 36 races. By comparison Suzuki were 1 win, 3 seconds and 4 thirds for the same period.

Nope, the difference was not speed but rider.

Jonix said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stoner didn't make the difference!! He did make a huge difference. But on long tracks Ducati-Stoner-Bridgestone were unbeatable..this is what I'm saying. Watch the Qatar race or Shangai.
Difference of 20+ Km/h and you have to balance it during the corners..not easy if you are dealing with Casey Stoner. He made turn the Duc very well too

Click to expand...

Put Rossi on the same bike he would never have got close to winning.

Jonix said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stoner didn't make the difference!! He did make a huge difference. But on long tracks Ducati-Stoner-Bridgestone were unbeatable..this is what I'm saying. Watch the Qatar race or Shangai.
Difference of 20+ Km/h and you have to balance it during the corners..not easy if you are dealing with Casey Stoner. He made turn the Duc very well too

Click to expand...

I actually agree that if you were Valentino Rossi on a 2007 Yamaha no matter how well you rode (and he was in his prime and rode very well) you couldn't win the championship that year against Casey Stoner on a Ducati. Riding the the thing like Casey Stoner was the trick, and all evidence suggests he had close to a unique synergy with the bike, and the fact he could get the thing through corners relied on a particular method rather than the bike somehow turning for him and not anyone else. I didn't think this in 2007, but I don't think Rossi could have ridden the bike as Stoner did. A straight line advantage is not the only thing for circuit racing btw or they would all be on drag bikes as Gaz has said, and on the track where the Ducati had the most pronounced advantage (which I think was the Chinese round) Yamaha had a gearing problem iirc.

That's how it goes with prototype bike racing in any case, Rossi had a bike with an all round bike advantage, literally built for a different formula, in 2002 which could have been exploited by a much wider range of riders.

God I miss the sound of the Ducati 800 screamer...

Gaz said:

But or they were beaten.

Capirossi/Stoner were not 1/2 in each of those races in 2007 were they (fact - that only happened once in the year)

Qatar.
Stoner 1st
Capirossi DNF

FWIW - Rossi 2nd / Pedrosa third

Next best Ducati - Alex Barros in 9th



Shanghai.
Stoner 1st
Capirossi 6th

FWIW - Rossi 2nd / Hopkins third

Next best Ducati - Alex Barros in 9th



In fact.

There were 7 races that year not won by a Ducati - which is actually the same number as Yamaha in 2015 where there is NO discussion surrounding the bike having so influenced the championship

Rossi beat Stoner 4 times that year - Jerez, Mugello (a circuit with a long straight, surely the Ducati speed would have been useful), Assen (if only we had the 'old' Assen) and Portugal.

Capirossi on the OTHER factory Ducati beat Stoner 2 times - Germany and Japan (but this was the race where Stoner only needed 7th to win the title)

Barros on a Ducati beat Stoner once at Mugello so maybe it was his turn for the afterburners

The ONLY race where Ducati were 1st and 2nd during the season was actually Phillip Island.

So to me, when you look at the figures, no matter what one says of the Ducati nitrous injected turbosedici, only one rider seemed to be consistently quick on the machine. That year two other world champions rode it to a combination of 1 win, 2 seconds and 2 thirds from a combined 36 races. By comparison Suzuki were 1 win, 3 seconds and 4 thirds for the same period.

Nope, the difference was not speed but rider.

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Good post, G