Lorenzo to satellite Ducati !!??

michaelm said:

I am over the argument as well, and pretty much over the forum like many before me.

It would seem we are back, in the 12th season after the 2007 season. to riders having unappealing personalities whatever their quality as actual riders. I doubtless have many faults, but logical inconsistency is not prominent among them.

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Let me see if I understand your logical consistency correctly, Mike.

It seems, in a general sense, that you are upset with the fact that top tier athletes become celebrities and that part of celebrity is a cult of personality.

This simple fact of life bothers you so much that you abandon objectivity and stake the untenable position that anyone who vaguely considers talent AND personality in their consideration of an athlete's overall impact on their sport is so unfailingly wrong that you are prepared to storm off in protest.

Uhm, OK.

Mick D said:

Let me see if I understand your logical consistency correctly, Mike.

It seems, in a general sense, that you are upset with the fact that top tier athletes become celebrities and that part of celebrity is a cult of personality.

This simple fact of life bothers you so much that you abandon objectivity and stake the untenable position that anyone who vaguely considers talent AND personality in their consideration of an athlete's overall impact on their sport is so unfailingly wrong that you are prepared to storm off in protest.

Uhm, OK.

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Hey Mick - as always good to see you here and about. Check your PM box/

the JLo era has come and gone, his riding style does not fit the premis that most Motogp engineers are designing their bikes around. though I am a little surprised to hear reports that he is missed at Ducati, not sure how much truth is behind that.

Good for Miller, I think he made the right choice to stay with Ducati, rather then a factory deal with KTM.

Hollywood said:

the JLo era has come and gone, his riding style does not fit the premis that most Motogp engineers are designing their bikes around. though I am a little surprised to hear reports that he is missed at Ducati, not sure how much truth is behind that.

Good for Miller, I think he made the right choice to stay with Ducati, rather then a factory deal with KTM.

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JLo was quite potent with the Ducati just before he left. I don't think what you're saying is true.

misfit said:

JLo was quite potent with the Ducati just before he left. I don't think what you're saying is true.

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he had his moments with Ducati, the factory also went all out trying to build a bike that would fit his riding style, and when things finally started looking good for the team, he was already on his way out...My point is I don't see JLo winning another championship.

Hollywood said:

he had his moments with Ducati, the factory also went all out trying to build a bike that would fit his riding style, and when things finally started looking good for the team, he was already on his way out...My point is I don't see JLo winning another championship.

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Kind of goes without saying. It's no smear on Lorenzo. Everybody has their time. His time for championships is gone.

Mick D said:

Let me see if I understand your logical consistency correctly, Mike.

It seems, in a general sense, that you are upset with the fact that top tier athletes become celebrities and that part of celebrity is a cult of personality.

This simple fact of life bothers you so much that you abandon objectivity and stake the untenable position that anyone who vaguely considers talent AND personality in their consideration of an athlete's overall impact on their sport is so unfailingly wrong that you are prepared to storm off in protest.

Uhm, OK.

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I am nothing if not logically consistent, to my detriment at times in real life.

As I kept saying I don’t have a problem with people not liking his personality. I don’t like Rossi’s but acknowledge his achievements and have never wished to see him crash or suffer injuries.

My problem was with Jorge, a top 10 rider all time but doubtless now in decline, being mocked for falling off a bike everyone falls off (including a certain rider who is very far from in decline to the extent that other rider’s own phenomenal career may be under some threat of an early conclusion), particularly while he was out injured after such a fall from which a return was uncertain, and from which a successful return is still uncertain.

I also think Dovi fans have gone overboard with the anti-Jorge stuff, Jorge has come from a hard school where team-mates are concerned and didn’t actually cost Dovi a championship, an implication which sometimes seems to be underlying. Some seem to see parallels with Nicky where Dovi is concerned, I as an acknowledged Stoner fanboy see parallels between Stoner and Jorge, and appreciate their mutual respect.

Hi Michael. Maybe I misunderstood your posts, but it seemed to me that you were advocating evaluating a Motogp rider by on-track exploits only (which may have merits in certain, limited, circumstances), rather than judging the rider in their entirety. Which, to me, seems counter to logic.

Mick D said:

Hi Michael. Maybe I misunderstood your posts, but it seemed to me that you were advocating evaluating a Motogp rider by on-track exploits only (which may have merits in certain, limited, circumstances), rather than judging the rider in their entirety. Which, to me, seems counter to logic.

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I spent years on here arguing for Stoner’s quality as a rider in the face of his personality being derided by Rossi fans, they being very much in the majority back in the day on here of course, which seemed to extend to the quality of his riding not being recognised, and consider myself to be in fact practising logical consistency in defending Jorge similarly.

I obviously didn’t express myself sufficiently clearly, but everyone or anyone being a fan of Jorge’s is a different matter which I absolutely don’t require. My issue was with his quality as a rider being as I saw it derided, in what looks very much like the twilight of his career, particularly when injured, which I believe he doesn’t deserve given his achievements and his unrelenting toughness and effort over his career. I think Casey came to admire him despite initially not being a fan for the same reason I did, that he absolutely didn’t quit when defending his title against Casey in 2011, losing the finger or whatever searching for something in practice with which he could beat Casey despite his cause being well nigh hopeless, and as I believe was the case with Stoner was sad he didn’t get to go down fighting in the actual race. He also since Motegi 2010 has not to my knowledge asked for or expected any concessions from anyone, as opposed to one former team-mate, and has been a fair racer imo, in the premier class at least.

michaelm said:

I spent years on here arguing for Stoner’s quality as a rider in the face of his personality being derided by Rossi fans, they being very much in the majority back in the day on here of course, which seemed to extend to the quality of his riding not being recognised, and consider myself to be in fact practising logical consistency in defending Jorge similarly.

I obviously didn’t express myself sufficiently clearly, but everyone or anyone being a fan of Jorge’s is a different matter which I absolutely don’t require. My issue was with his quality as a rider being as I saw it derided, in what looks very much like the twilight of his career, particularly when injured, which I believe he doesn’t deserve given his achievements and his unrelenting toughness and effort over his career. I think Casey came to admire him despite initially not being a fan for the same reason I did, that he absolutely didn’t quit when defending his title against Casey in 2011, losing the finger or whatever searching for something in practice with which he could beat Casey despite his cause being well nigh hopeless, and as I believe was the case with Stoner was sad he didn’t get to go down fighting in the actual race. He also since Motegi 2010 has not to my knowledge asked for or expected any concessions from anyone, as opposed to one former team-mate, and has been a fair racer imo, in the premier class at least.

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Prim may be a fair cop.

As for the rest I perhaps expected better from you as an opponent of the several years of Stoner bashing, justified by the proponents of same on the basis of his “difficult” personality.

I have never kicked any rider when he was down, including Cal Crutchlow of whom I am also a fan, and he is a world super sport champion rather than the winner of 3 premier class and 2 250 gp world titles. I actually fell out with the aforementioned Roger, something i regret because I suspect we would have related well had we met in person, over a point of logic ie that calling Stoner the same as an unknown cart racer in a video who abreacted to being taken out in a cart race was legitimate criticism of Stoner, perhaps akin to likening Jorge to Michael Jackson, and to some extent helped precipitate Jumkie’s departure by deciding his friend JK was for the main part a troll. Jumkie btw was a Dovi fan who hated Jorge personally probably for similar reasons to those which provoked your distaste but didn’t denigrate his actual capability as a rider as far as I can recall.

michaelm said:

Prim may be a fair cop.

As for the rest I perhaps expected better from you as an opponent of the several years of Stoner bashing, justified by the proponents of same on the basis of his “difficult” personality.

I have never kicked any rider when he was down, including Cal Crutchlow of whom I am also a fan, and he is a world super sport champion rather than the winner of 3 premier class and 2 250 gp world titles. I actually fell out with the aforementioned Roger, something i regret because I suspect we would have related well had we met in person, over a point of logic ie that calling Stoner the same as an unknown cart racer in a video who abreacted to being taken out in a cart race was legitimate criticism of Stoner, perhaps similar to calling Jorge similar to Michael Jackson, and to some extent helped precipitate Jumkie’s departure by deciding his friend JK was for the main part a troll. Jumkie btw was a Dovi fan who hated Jorge personally probably for similar reasons to those which provoked your distaste but didn’t denigrate his actual capability as a riderr as far as I can recall.

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The Stoner bashing by those idiots is what made me leave this place.

Also Stoner coming to like & respect Lorenzo is what brought him over for me too as I mentioned earlier.

320Dave said:

The Stoner bashing by those idiots is what made me leave this place.

Also Stoner coming to like & respect Lorenzo is what brought him over for me too as I mentioned earlier.

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Thanks for saying that. I love lots of good-natured ribbing and poking of folks and illustrating their foibles - as long as it's genuinely in the spirit of cordial larking (there's a phrase I bet you never thought you'd hear on this forum) - but there was way too much macho-..., corrosive, mean-spirited taunting intended to alienate members who didn't follow the same playbook; and the guys who did it always dishonestly tried to brush it off as "banter". And of course it became like a magnet for the most the virulent trolls who kept up the toxic flame wars that engulfed so many threads. Every so often I get the impulse to text Jum or Rog and say, hey Compa why the hell don't you come on back? And then sanity returns - and I put the phone away.

I will say that I think a lot of folks left the forum simply because they got bored or just moved on. People had kids who became their world. Etc etc etc. I have to admit I do miss the variety of big personalities: Pidgeon, Lexicon, Curve, Little Sparrows, Dr. No, Gator Duc, Bass Pete, Arribiatta, Drill, Half Pint, The Phorest, Rising Sun, Mr. Squiggle, Mr. Shupe, Nuts, Kropo, Austin etc. who were a congenial lot and could passionately defend an idea without resorting to personal attacks.

As to the "Phony Beatlemania" pining for the old Power-slide; to me it's like old hippies still pining for The Summer Of Love, portrayed in the media as sweet and innocent and full of hope, but in reality, those who who lived through it out in San Francisco - with 20/20 hindsight will tell you that it was largely deluded dreamers living in a drug-fueled haze spouting Kahlil Gibran, panhandling for Grateful Dead tickets, alternately eating out of restaurant dumpsters or having "brown rice, seaweed and a dirty hotdog" served up by The Hog Farm free kitchen, stealing from mom's purse to pay for their meth and constant visits to the free clinic for syphilis and gonorrhea testing.

michaelm said:

I spent years on here arguing for Stoner’s quality as a rider in the face of his personality being derided by Rossi fans, they being very much in the majority back in the day on here of course, which seemed to extend to the quality of his riding not being recognised, and consider myself to be in fact practising logical consistency in defending Jorge similarly.

I obviously didn’t express myself sufficiently clearly, but everyone or anyone being a fan of Jorge’s is a different matter which I absolutely don’t require. My issue was with his quality as a rider being as I saw it derided, in what looks very much like the twilight of his career, particularly when injured, which I believe he doesn’t deserve given his achievements and his unrelenting toughness and effort over his career. I think Casey came to admire him despite initially not being a fan for the same reason I did, that he absolutely didn’t quit when defending his title against Casey in 2011, losing the finger or whatever searching for something in practice with which he could beat Casey despite his cause being well nigh hopeless, and as I believe was the case with Stoner was sad he didn’t get to go down fighting in the actual race. He also since Motegi 2010 has not to my knowledge asked for or expected any concessions from anyone, as opposed to one former team-mate, and has been a fair racer imo, in the premier class at least.

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I see what you’re getting at. My personal appeal to sport of any kind, is the human factor. There are many aspects to that human factor, technical ability being only one of them. I personally appreciate the different riders/drivers in a wholistic way and do get bored very easily when watching a race involving riders/drivers I know nothing about. The competition is so much more exciting for me anyway, when I know the riders/drivers involved well. The more I know them, the better the entertainment value for me. Rivalries can be seriously entertaining, but without knowledge of the buildup etc., one wouldn’t be even aware that a rivalry exists.

In the end, I could easily favour a rider over another because of the overall impression I have of each of them. It’s a combination of their personality, technical ability and racing style/behaviour.

I personally don’t have an intense dislike for any of the riders. There are however some that I like and cheer for, others I’m indifferent about, and others I don’t really care for.

I therefore can easily understand a fan of the sport not liking Stoner and not cheering for him despite Stoner’s great technical ability and clean racing. Nothing wrong with that. It matters not why they don’t care for him on a personal level. It would seem to me that you have a problem with this and that the only metric should be the rider’s abilities??

misfit said:

I see what you’re getting at. My personal appeal to sport of any kind, is the human factor. There are many aspects to that human factor, technical ability being only one of them. I personally appreciate the different riders/drivers in a wholistic way and do get bored very easily when watching a race involving riders/drivers I know nothing about. The competition is so much more exciting for me anyway, when I know the riders/drivers involved well. The more I know them, the better the entertainment value for me. Rivalries can be seriously entertaining, but without knowledge of the buildup etc., one wouldn’t be even aware that a rivalry exists.

In the end, I could easily favour a rider over another because of the overall impression I have of each of them. It’s a combination of their personality, technical ability and racing style/behaviour.

I personally don’t have an intense dislike for any of the riders. There are however some that I like and cheer for, others I’m indifferent about, and others I don’t really care for.

I therefore can easily understand a fan of the sport not liking Stoner and not cheering for him despite Stoner’s great technical ability and clean racing. Nothing wrong with that. It matters not why they don’t care for him on a personal level. It would seem to me that you have a problem with this and that the only metric should be the rider’s abilities??

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No there isn't anything wrong with that.

However when Hordes of Fans of the same guy (how does it always come down to him when its a personality controversy) get together and practically bury a Rider in insults and mockery to the point of Ridiculing the Rider and his fans,

One can end up being pretty salty with the opinion of Others on a rider he likes personally, both be Riding or persona or both.

It is called getting burnt over time.

misfit said:

I see what you’re getting at. My personal appeal to sport of any kind, is the human factor. There are many aspects to that human factor, technical ability being only one of them. I personally appreciate the different riders/drivers in a wholistic way and do get bored very easily when watching a race involving riders/drivers I know nothing about. The competition is so much more exciting for me anyway, when I know the riders/drivers involved well. The more I know them, the better the entertainment value for me. Rivalries can be seriously entertaining, but without knowledge of the buildup etc., one wouldn’t be even aware that a rivalry exists.

In the end, I could easily favour a rider over another because of the overall impression I have of each of them. It’s a combination of their personality, technical ability and racing style/behaviour.

I personally don’t have an intense dislike for any of the riders. There are however some that I like and cheer for, others I’m indifferent about, and others I don’t really care for.

I therefore can easily understand a fan of the sport not liking Stoner and not cheering for him despite Stoner’s great technical ability and clean racing. Nothing wrong with that. It matters not why they don’t care for him on a personal level. It would seem to me that you have a problem with this and that the only metric should be the rider’s abilities??

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No, I don't see how I can be more clear, dislike Stoner or Lorenzo or whomever all you like, my issue is with extending this to deriding their quality or achievements as a rider, which absolutely was done to Stoner and which Keshav was tending towards in regard to Lorenzo imo.

Double. Site running at a glacial pace.

320Dave said:

No there isn't anything wrong with that.

However when Hordes of Fans of the same guy (how does it always come down to him when its a personality controversy) get together and practically bury a Rider in insults and mockery to the point of Ridiculing the Rider and his fans,

One can end up being pretty salty with the opinion of Others on a rider he likes personally, both be Riding or persona or both.

It is called getting burnt over time.

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Yes, I've been detecting a high degree of sensitivity and as per usual, as with Lorenzo and his demeanour on many an occasion, there's history to account for it. However, it doesn't make it any less agreeable. I'm late to the scene and have watched MotoGP for many years without browsing too many fan-sites for the very reason you've just given an example.

I joined this forum seriously hoping discussions will not descend into rabid insulting and vitriol towards riders, or other forum members. If it does, and the signal to noise(vitriol) ratio gets too much for me, I'll move on.

michaelm said:

Double. Site running at a glacial pace.

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The delete button is your friend.

misfit said:

Yes, I've been detecting a high degree of sensitivity and as per usual, as with Lorenzo and his demeanour on many an occasion, there's history to account for it. However, it doesn't make it any less agreeable. I'm late to the scene and have watched MotoGP for many years without browsing too many fan-sites for the very reason you've just given an example.

I joined this forum seriously hoping discussions will not descend into rabid insulting and vitriol towards riders, or other forum members. If it does, and the signal to noise(vitriol) ratio gets too much for me, I'll move on.

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Stick around Mate. It comes in waves at times. I use to get caught up in it, but the main troll faction have largely ...... off, especially since Rossi stopped getting on the podium.

This forum can be really great again as long as serious fans resist feeding the trolls. The ignore button works quite well.