Not to follow up on the contradictions but let me know the last and next time someone goes to see a fellow injured rider without being the culprit of that injury.
Especially opposite teams and different nationalities.
Lorenzo to satellite Ducati !!??
- Thread starter MagicMarc93
- Start date
Not to follow up on the contradictions but let me know the last and next time someone goes to see a fellow injured rider without being the culprit of that injury.
Especially opposite teams and different nationalities.
In which case you should take note of Stoner’s continuing deep respect for Jorge which doesn’t seem to extend to Dovi greatly. 2011 is when I came to respect Jorge and possibly when Stoner did as well. Against peak fully focused Stoner on a very good Honda he fought to defend his title to the last inch, doing his finger in pushing to find something extra in practice as I recall although his cause was pretty close to hopeless. I am still amazed as a physician how he completed a motogp race with a newly plated fractured clavicle; Colin Edwards was correctly called superhuman for riding the next week-end after a similar injury. Jorge has also like MM had to put up with the Valeban, except he was on the same team as their glorious leader when that guy was at his peak for manipulation and vindictiveness.
Again, I give great credit to Dovi for those great wins over MM and finally showing what he has presumably always had, but I don’t recall paeans of praise from you for Dani Pedrosa and denigration of Dovi for not matching up to him when both were riding for HRC, and he has won twice as many races as Dovi, finished 2nd in the title more times and totally smoked all of the great recent riders including MM and left them with no answers on more than one of those week-ends when he really had it all going.
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Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
It's not about the numbers. Never was. I've had good things to say about Dani (who I met at Assen last year and was pleased to see that he was even able to take a second in the middle of a busy day) tho it's true I was pissed after the 2006 incident w Nicky. I think however I was a pretty early-on adopter of the move to forgive and forget.
What I found attractive about Dovi was the same as with 2005 - 2007 era Stoner, that being the whole underdog thing.
While there's no doubt that Pedrosa was a greater talent, he was right from the start of his Motogp career spoon fed the best equipment and lacked for nothing with fullest support. I never believed that Dovi got that full support from the Spanish-centric Repsol, anymore than Nicky did. I don't support the "there are no coincidences" thinking, but there sure was a fair amount of circumstantial evidence pointing to Dovi's bikes getting the wick turned down at races where Dani was there, and the sudden increase in Dovi's performance whenever Dani was having one of his numerous surgeries.
There are a lot of folks who place a value on toughness for the sake of toughness. I'm not one of those people. So I don't see that in itself as increasing Lorenzo's worth. All that neanderthal machismo stuff means nothing to me.
There are a lot of folks who seem to feel if the rider has had great results that he should be allowed extra slack in his personal dealings. I don't subscribe to that either. I'm of the school that believes with greater recognition and it's attendant power and privilege requires a higher standard for how one behaves in the public forum.
I would say also that back in the day when there were a number of absolutely RABID Stoner haters here, I couldn't have cared less whether people felt that way. True I was always quick to post when I saw that people were positing ........ reasons to justify their ridiculous over-the-top hate speech. But I was never invested in the vain belief that I could change their mind, that being such a rarity around these parts. If someone simply said, The guy just rubs me the wrong way, well then .... it, can't argue with that. Trying to change who people do or don’t like is like trying to effect a religious conversion. Happens, but not often.
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Joined May 2019
607 Posts | 459+
Where I am.
I'm sort of with Keshav and say so since I don't wish to put words in his mouth. I personally don't hate any of the riders and after attending a couple races, I can't help but have loads of respect for all of them and their abilities. However, what makes experiencing them complete for me, are their personas/attitudes both on and off track.
Jorge is one of those that I've not taken to at a personal level. I'm not so sure that I buy into the complete separation of their attitudes/persona in and out of the public eye. It's not like they each suddenly lose control in the public eye. We simply get to see another facet of their personalities. On track and after incidents we see how they behave in the spur of the moment. We see how they each behave when upset etc. I personally find these sort of things more telling of the personality of the individual, i.e., how they conduct themselves as professionals rather than in a social setting which is more relaxed. Additionally, there's no doubt that we all put on our masks in social settings pretty much as we do professionally.
Again, I'll never doubt Jorge's mettle and valor as a rider. However, he does frequently leave me wanting to see better in how he conducts himself under stressful situations or in rivalries. I know that Casey respected Jorge and said as such in his biography; his reason being that Jorge was direct and always said what he meant without playing games. Of course, this was said to contrast his opinion about VR.
Jorge is one of those that I've not taken to at a personal level. I'm not so sure that I buy into the complete separation of their attitudes/persona in and out of the public eye. It's not like they each suddenly lose control in the public eye. We simply get to see another facet of their personalities. On track and after incidents we see how they behave in the spur of the moment. We see how they each behave when upset etc. I personally find these sort of things more telling of the personality of the individual, i.e., how they conduct themselves as professionals rather than in a social setting which is more relaxed. Additionally, there's no doubt that we all put on our masks in social settings pretty much as we do professionally.
Again, I'll never doubt Jorge's mettle and valor as a rider. However, he does frequently leave me wanting to see better in how he conducts himself under stressful situations or in rivalries. I know that Casey respected Jorge and said as such in his biography; his reason being that Jorge was direct and always said what he meant without playing games. Of course, this was said to contrast his opinion about VR.
Joined Sep 2016
894 Posts | 557+
Queensland Australia
Miller renewed with Pramac for 2020.
https://www.motogp.com/en/news/2019/08/14/miller-renews-with-pramac-racing-for-2020/305102
I think Jorge will stay right where he is with Honda. I'm more curious as to where Zarco will go, most MotoGP seats are secured for 2020.
https://www.motogp.com/en/news/2019/08/14/miller-renews-with-pramac-racing-for-2020/305102
I think Jorge will stay right where he is with Honda. I'm more curious as to where Zarco will go, most MotoGP seats are secured for 2020.
Joined Aug 2007
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Pomona NY
Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinion and neither I nor I presume anyone else compels anyone to like Jorge.
He is a great rider however, and would seem rather likely to be rated well ahead of Dovi when both have completed their careers, and I greatly respect his competitiveness and toughness, and took some exception to him being scoffed at for falling off the current Honda, something pretty much everyone does/has done, including Crutchlow, Miller and even MM himself.
Kesh, you and everyone else can call him a prick all you like with no complaint from me.
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Sure, I think there are ample reasons to suspect Pedrosa was favoured by Repsol (the operative word) Honda particularly early on over Nicky with their pocket bike designed for Dani (or him selected to fit with that bike/the then Honda engineering philosophy) in the wings but Dovi was rather later in proceedings and I am sure by 2010 Honda would have taken a title any way they could get one; going out to get Stoner hardly suggests Dani remained their golden haired boy. Dovi always had good equipment, but sure being a late career bloomer is a great narrative and all praise to him for sticking with it and getting where he is now as I have said. You can hardly talk about his team-mates and them being favoured over him in the context of Jorge given the identity of Jorge’s teammate for much of his career, and the fact is that whatever the origin of the situation Jorge’s tenure at Ducati coincided with the bike becoming very competitive, actually fairly close to unbeatable in Jorge’s hands for his Ducati wins, after Dovi himself had been rather mediocre in his first 18 months on a Ducati or rather longer, so much so that it was widely reported that Gigi considered Dovi and crazy Joe to be not demonstrating the potential of his bike, the latter requiring Stoner’s services as a test rider.
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Joined Sep 2016
894 Posts | 557+
Queensland Australia
I have always had huge respect for his achievements and ability on a bike, he seems a bit odd but everyones different i guess and I don't know him to be able to judge so i don't. Nothing wrong with taking the piss out of him though, just look at his book cover and tell me he isn't asking for it (hilarious ....). I'm a Miller fan and there is nothing wrong with taking the piss out of him for needing subtitles in the European rounds because he speaks heavy spanglish in interviews.
It's just light hearted fun, there is enough PC ........ going on in the world and I'm ....... sick of it.
Sure, consider him to be a prick or mock his personality and behaviour all you like as I believe I have actually said, and I absolutely agree his victory celebrations early on for one were lame in the extreme; I recall him nearly drowning during one such celebration.
I have always had huge respect for his achievements and ability on a bike, he seems a bit odd but everyones different i guess and I don't know him to be able to judge so i don't. Nothing wrong with taking the piss out of him though, just look at his book cover and tell me he isn't asking for it (hilarious ....). I'm a Miller fan and there is nothing wrong with taking the piss out of him for needing subtitles in the European rounds because he speaks heavy spanglish in interviews.
It's just light hearted fun, there is enough PC ........ going on in the world and I'm ....... sick of it.
What I do object to in this and other sports is armchair critics on forums criticising great sportsmen for not measuring up to their personal randomly decided performance standards, even Kesh who has raced substantially himself couldn’t dream of riding as well as the least of these guys, let alone a 5 times world champion including being the only guy to beat MM for a premier class title.
Kesh admittedly is perhaps the victim of attitudes I formed arguing for a year on another forum with the arch Rossi fan Wosidog who despised both Jorge and Stoner for fairly obvious reasons and belittled both constantly.
Joined Aug 2007
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Pomona NY
I have always had huge respect for his achievements and ability on a bike, he seems a bit odd but everyones different i guess and I don't know him to be able to judge so i don't. Nothing wrong with taking the piss out of him though, just look at his book cover and tell me he isn't asking for it (hilarious ....). I'm a Miller fan and there is nothing wrong with taking the piss out of him for needing subtitles in the European rounds because he speaks heavy spanglish in interviews.
It's just light hearted fun, there is enough PC ........ going on in the world and I'm ....... sick of it.
Yeah... it’s all good fun. I don’t think I’ve ever denigrated Lorenzo’s skills as a rider. That would be ...... But I can’t help but find him in turns irritating and laughable, essentially because he so frequently seems irritated and rarely seems to laugh. That and the absurd posturing. I was a huge fan of Nicky - but regularly found myself doing the palm to face gesture when he showed up at each venue with increasingly silly haircuts and facial hair designs.
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Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Reason behind my mention of Dovi's time at HRC was simply to highlight the fact that the one time previous to employment at Ducati, he was, while on factory equipment, was given 2nd tier treatment as a rider. Beyond that he's always been on satellite bikes with indifferent support - which is hard to rise above when the competition is Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa and Stoner . . . and then for the cherry on the top . . . Marquez. Takes a kind of real mental fortitude to remain positive and moreso, to excel after years of being largely ignored and taken for granted by the factories.
Lorenzo on the other hand has ridden nothing but full factory bikes from the beginning. Not saying the bikes ride themselves, but the confidence of the riders are most definitely boosted by the caring and support of the team behind them.
Not (god forbid) making any kind of direct comparisons, but I remember doing the AMA-CCS races and being in the paddock doing my own wrenching, eating my wife's day-old sandwiches and sleeping in my ...... little van sweating my balls off at Road Atlanta in brutal August heat and seeing these young kids one spot over in giant air-conditioned RV Campers surrounded by family barbecuing steaks while Dad wrenches on dual sparkling clean bikes with $20,000.00 worth of Factory Yoshimura parts and thinking - must be nice. So, yeah, I always root for the underdog.
Joined Mar 2016
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FNQ
But, were you whooping them on track? And aside from performance, I'm sure you had more satisfaction over the meet.
Joined Aug 2007
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Pomona NY
For sure. I wasn't meaning to sound all self-pitying. That was one of the best periods in my life. If on Sunday night while packing up the van, I had 4th place and all my bones were in tact, I was a happy camper.
Joined May 2019
607 Posts | 459+
Where I am.
But you veil your complaining with this disclaimer of not complaining?
Anyway, I have never questioned Lorenzo's abilities with a bike. His achievements speak for themselves.
But one can't deny that barring their abilities and achievements, they are individuals and can be quite troubled despite their technical abilities. We see this in all categories of life. Not only sport.
Joined May 2019
607 Posts | 459+
Where I am.
I don't consider Lorenzo a prick. Neither do I mock his personality. I do take him very seriously and as do we all, he must have very good reason for some of his behaviours that I have witnessed. However, it doesn't necessarily make it any less pleasant, for me anyway, to witness or agree with. Regarding his professional behaviour on and off track, I disagree with the 'armchair' argument. As I say, while I will not pretend to have any knowledge of the circumstances and build-up around what motivates his personal aspects/behaviours that don't sit right with me personally, this doesn't mean I cannot see it and state my personal dislike for it.
I've lived long enough to witness the personalities of many great achievers. I can compare how they respond to stressful situations, how they interact with each other in friendly and also not so friendly situations. I've loved many, felt neutral towards many and disliked many. However, I've respected virtually all of them.
Again, I have no problem with people not liking Lorenzo and don’t require anyone to like him.
My argument was with him being characterised as incompetent/mocked for falling off a Honda everyone falls off, when he is a top 10 all-time rider with his career possibly under threat from injuries.
I mainly care about on-track performance being a Doohan and Stoner fan, and Jorge has been a safe and fair racer in the premier class and stood up to a more than middling amount of adversity. Lame though people are entitled to consider some of his off track antics, and awkward though some may find his personality as they are also entitled to do, Jorge hasn’t really done anything reprehensible off track of which I am aware, but rather has stood up to such behaviour from others (one other anyway).
If people think Dovi is a nicer guy than Jorge that is fine. I am more on the diva Dovi train myself (it would appear with Gigi as a fellow passenger) and consider him to have changed his attitude with his late career success, my personal opinion only of course, but am very happy to give him credit for that success, particularly for prevailing over MM in one on one duels more than a few times now. He has obviously been the better rider the last 3 seasons, but that doesn’t make him a better rider in career terms than Lorenzo just as he is isn’t (only imo of course) a better rider overall than Valentino Rossi whom he regularly beats now.
My argument was with him being characterised as incompetent/mocked for falling off a Honda everyone falls off, when he is a top 10 all-time rider with his career possibly under threat from injuries.
I mainly care about on-track performance being a Doohan and Stoner fan, and Jorge has been a safe and fair racer in the premier class and stood up to a more than middling amount of adversity. Lame though people are entitled to consider some of his off track antics, and awkward though some may find his personality as they are also entitled to do, Jorge hasn’t really done anything reprehensible off track of which I am aware, but rather has stood up to such behaviour from others (one other anyway).
If people think Dovi is a nicer guy than Jorge that is fine. I am more on the diva Dovi train myself (it would appear with Gigi as a fellow passenger) and consider him to have changed his attitude with his late career success, my personal opinion only of course, but am very happy to give him credit for that success, particularly for prevailing over MM in one on one duels more than a few times now. He has obviously been the better rider the last 3 seasons, but that doesn’t make him a better rider in career terms than Lorenzo just as he is isn’t (only imo of course) a better rider overall than Valentino Rossi whom he regularly beats now.
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Joined Aug 2007
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Pomona NY
My joke about the special Alpinestars suit was essentially a response to the "softball", the unlikelihood that is of the special Honda being built for Lorenzo that seemed to beg for a humorous response, rather than an actual dig at Jorge. Forgive me for saying so, but one would think after all the years you've been on this site and all the silly piss-taking that's gone on - that this would not be a foreign concept.
On track, as opposed to PR junkets and away from the track events. No issues with his racing per se.
You keep hammering on the point about his qualifications and his wins, but nobody is arguing anything different. Nothing he does in the paddock can take away his championships.
It's really simple. The guy has a disagreeable, prickly persona that naturally solicits mockery.
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As I said, as a Doohan and Stoner fan (I actually posted as Doohan fan on another forum) Jorge as a prickly and disagreeable personality who delivers on the track is my kind of guy.
I would have thought you after all these years on the forum with all the Rossi/Valeban stuff for many of those years would have not been someone who judged riders on how likeable they were/whether a high percentage of fans liked them yourself.
