Lorenzo to satellite Ducati !!??

michaelm said:

As I said, as a Doohan and Stoner fan (I actually posted as Doohan fan on another forum) Jorge as a prickly and disagreeable personality who delivers on the track is my kind of guy.

I would have thought you after all these years on the forum with all the Rossi/Valeban stuff for many of those years would have not been someone who judged riders on how likeable they were/whether a high percentage of fans liked them yourself.

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Keshav said:

I can appreciate a great talent without turning a blind eye to his foibles. Some of us mere mortals derive a certain satisfaction in those contrasts that the make the “Gods” a bit more human. The confident man at the top of his field, who, up close, gets flustered and has the same insecurities as lesser men is a stock archetype in the world of humor as much as some of the more established ones dating back to Commedia Del Arte days. We love them because at some level because they are us. Lorenzo’s present downturn is genuinely tragic, and you know the old saying: Tragedy plus time equals comedy. I can and have enjoyed the fruits of geniuses, like say Michael Jackson while disapproving of his personal behavior. I can (and I’m not bragging) also walk and chew gum at the same time.

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michaelm said:

I am not sure Jorge deserves to be classified with Michael Jackson in regard to objectionable behaviour. And I don’t think his situation is tragic, as long as he eventually retires with no injury that limits his future life he has had a great career, pretty much top 10 all time it is hard to deny I would have thought, and while his career overlapping even greater top 5 or top 2 all time riders as the case may be may have cast him into the shade a trifle this also adds lustre to his achievements imo. If he is not liked as much as some he will just have to live with that, and I am sure he can, his latter career at least has been all about winning rather than attempting to be liked, the stuff when he wanted to involve himself in Valentino’s challenge to the back of the grid penalty after Sepang 2015 being illustrative of this.

Jorge deserves respect for his riding and how he has dealt with both on track and off track adversity imo however, particularly his toughness in the face of injuries, the remarkable return to ride 2 days after the clavicle fracture (but for which he would very likely be a 4 time premier class titleist) in 2013 especially, and it was your characterising of him as a crasher/faller which riled me. Dovi is a big hearted trier with admirable perseverance himself of course, but his career can’t be rated with Jorge’s at this point in time.

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AJV80 said:

It would be great to see Jorge work out the Honda and win some races on it, as fast as he can be when he is on his game I don't think it will happen for him on the Honda like it did on the Ducati. When he won on the Ducati the bike seemed a little stronger than the Honda, and he had Dovi to deal with who isn't as aggressive as Marc and not inclined to take as many risks. Where as now the gap between the Honda and Ducati seems to have shrunk and if he does work out the bike and everything lines up with him on a track that favours the Honda he will still have his teammate Marc to deal with who is no slouch and will be on the same bike. I would imagine Marc over riding the bike and putting hard passes on him and not giving him an inch, just like a dog with a bone he wont let go of. Hope it happens because it would make awesome viewing.

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michaelm said:

I don’t really know anything about Hailwood, but I believe any rider from the last 35 years would struggle to beat current MM over a season. Basically you need a rider who is fairly great himself on a better bike.

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misfit said:

Keshav gave an illustration to make his point clear. He was not comparing as you imply. Michael Jackson is actually an excellent example of what technical greatness in the presence of a flawed and troubled persona is. While his singing/dancing talent, all honed to perfection through very hard work over all his career that started young, cannot be questioned, his persona has been questioned and critiqued by many. I had thought of making my point in a similar way, but thought you would take it as you took Kesh's.

I personally appreciate the riders as human beings. I therefore enjoy following their activities in a complete way. It will always go beyond the technical from where I personally sit. It may not be the same for everyone, I'm sure. I do also appreciate that it's the same for the majority of fans who may love/hate, like/dislike a particular competitor in any sport.

VR is disliked by many, not for his technical abilities, but the personality he portrays through his 'antics'/behaviours while competing. We watch not only the race, but the interviews/comments etc. An extrapolation is made from these antics to draw conclusions about his deeper personality. Many deny the validity of such extrapolations, but I personally, and from experience, do not. There are many ways to approach adversity in life/competition. We choose our methods based on temperament, inner values, perception of self and our fellow competitors/survivors etc.

Jorge is a clean racer. He may be aggressive at times, but I've never seen him overtly make a move that demonstrates disrespect/disregard toward another rider. For me, that speaks tons about his personality especially when compared to VR and especially MM. Jorge may be miserable at times while MM is smiling at the time, but I know who I'd lean towards when the going gets tough. So yes, my impression of Jorge has facets. While it's not all glowing, it's certainly overall positive and I can only wish that he finds some performance out of that Honda. It's distressing to see him struggle like that.

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michaelm said:

You keep accusing me of not reading your posts/understanding your points while missing mine from my point of view. I have no problem with you or Kesh or anyone else disliking Jorge, I can see why he is not everyone’s cup of tea, my objection was to Kesh mocking the technical ability you both admit is pretty much beyond criticism.

If you want a musical comparison I don’t think the comparison with Jackson is at all apt, it would seem likely MJ would be in jail if he was still alive, whatever personality flaws you might wish to contend Jorge has are orders of magnitude away from that. You can compare him to Fogerty the superbike rider if you like, or maybe Fogerty the musician according to his band mates, although the latter had more genius as a musician than Jorge has as a bike rider imo.

Valentino Rossi is a case in point, I felt some schadenfreude when he couldn’t ride a bike on which he had assumed he would surpass Stoner, but I have never questioned his talent or achievements as a rider, the worst I have ever said is that he may only be as good as KRSR, Lawson, Rainey and Doohan rather than on a tier above them. It is his Machiavellian behaviour towards Jorge and particularly MM and how they stood up to it after Stoner had found it intolerable which increased my respect increased my respect in Jorge’s case and gained my respect in MM’s case. Jorge didn’t ride Dovi off the track or torpedo him in 2017 btw.

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AJV80 said:

Couldn’t agree more, it would be tough for anyone to beat Marc over a season with the form he is in. But I don’t think Jorge could beat Marc in a single race when they are both on Honda’s unless Marc crashes out. Hypothetically even if Jorge worked the bike out and had all the planets aligned for him one weekend, Marc would do everything he could to his prove a point and stay top dog, not letting him get away from the start to clear out and then viciously working out on him corner after corner.

It’s a shame Suzuki and Jorge never did anything together. I think the Suzuki would be a better fit for his riding style right out of the box compared to Ducati’s and Honda’s. His direction with developing the bike would be mutually beneficial for both of them.

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misfit said:

If you think a musical or direct comparison with MJ was being made, then you've missed the point.... again! Additionally, for one who doesn't mind a dislike for Jorge, you do write a lot against it.

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Keshav said:

Nobody compared Lorenzo to Jackson. I was simply illustrating a dynamic. I never downplayed his talent either. You are way over analyzing what was broad humor, a throwaway joke, banter; a thing as I recall the late great Rog, blessed be his name.

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michaelm said:

I am a Jorge fan, which I would have thought was fairly clear. You keep expressing your dislike for him, which as with Stoner and the Rossi fans I actually enjoy. I have not defended his personality, my point is single, that as an all-time great rider it is illegitimate to characterise him as a faller/crasher. I would do the same and if I recall have done the same recently if someone brought up the old Crashey Stoner thing again, to which I didn’t object when he was actually crashing as a 250 and 990 rider. He subsequently demonstrated he could ride a perfect season twice, as Jorge has pretty much also demonstrated he can do, which Dovi has never done and more than likely will never do.

Pray tell, what is your point in comparing Jorge with MIchael Jackson btw ?. Jorge has never had to pay off any families to cover his “personality flaws” as far as I am aware. I saw Jackson as a harmless eccentric before various revelations myself, and did rate the stuff with Quincy Jones and even more so the best Jackson 5 stuff.

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Keshav said:

Nobody compared Lorenzo to Jackson. I was simply illustrating a dynamic. I never downplayed his talent either. You are way over analyzing what was broad humor, a throwaway joke, banter; a thing much employed as I recall by the late great Rog, blessed be his name. :angel:

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michaelm said:

Now you condescend, which I have not done to you previously in this discussion.

I begin to see Roger’s point of view. Perhaps ironically my fall out with him was on a similar point of logic, or illogic as the case may be.

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misfit said:

I would say that your point is not single as you say since we've responded to each other's messages on several counts and yet, I've never once claimed Jorge to be a faller/crasher. I've repeatedly said that I don't doubt his abilities on a bike, his valor and also his clean conduct on-track. However, here we are, though you say you have no problem with anything negative said about him from a personality standpoint?

I don't dislike Lorenzo. I dislike a particular aspect of the guy. No one is perfect... right??? I know you're a fan, but gee man!

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AJV80 said:

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michaelm said:

Where the argument started was with Keshav characterising him as a faller/crasher, to which I did and do object. If you don’t share that view then I have no argument with you on that point, and you will have to forgive me for drawing the implication that you were supporting all of Kesh’s arguments.

It certainly wasn’t me who likened Jorge to Michael Jackson personality-wise, so that leaves you and Kesh; I believe Kesh brought it up but you said you considered it apt, but had refrained from supporting the comparison because you considered it likely I would find it objectionable, with the implication that such objection would be unreasonable. I have repeatedly said, I don’t require you to like Jorge. If you want to compare him to someone talented but irascible like Carl Fogarty, Matt Mladin or perhaps Doohan (who was the better rider imo and probably the opinion of most) fine. Mladin is perhaps the best comparison for those with your opinion of Jorge; I believe the usually reserved Ben Spies was wont to refer to him as “that ............”. It is hardly unreasonable for me to object to him being compared with someone who had to pay off multiple families to cover his bizarre personal foibles.

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Keshav said:

Mike - I have to call it quits on this topic. Why you repeatedly ignore my clarifications and mischaracterise and misinterpret the inferences despite my clearly spelling them out for you I won’t speculate on.

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