Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Interesting. U've obviously been there (not sure or am I getting my memories mixed up). I've gone through turn by turn in my mind. Curious which u think are so dangerous that track should be banned?
Krop, I've asked this in the comments section on Motomatters and even put out a tweet to you, but so far haven't got an answer. Are you aware of any contract between Scramp and the AMA to run AMA races on the Laguna Seca GP weekend, thus preventing the running of Moto 2 and Moto 3 there because there's no room left on the schedule. I talked to a person at Austin, who has connections with the US tracks and Ducati NA, that told me this was the real reason we don't see the lower classes in Monterey rather than the accepted notion of travel costs. I thought Qatar paid for all the yearly travel costs of Moto GP.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
[quote name="dubey796" post="358940" timestamp="1377102938"]
Krop, I've asked this in the comments section on Motomatters and even put out a tweet to you, but so far haven't got an answer. Are you aware of any contract between Scramp and the AMA to run AMA races on the Laguna Seca GP weekend, thus preventing the running of Moto 2 and Moto 3 there because there's no room left on the schedule. I talked to a person at Austin, who has connections with the US tracks and Ducati NA, that told me this was the real reason we don't see the lower classes in Monterey rather than the accepted notion of travel costs. I thought Qatar paid for all the yearly travel costs of Moto GP.[/quote]
I'm sure Krops will have a more accurate answer, but I heard a few things:
1. AMA was placed as the support categories because initially the fear was GP alone would not attract attendance, (if true they were and are wrong). Since then they have not rectified the mistake.
2. Initially, 125 and 250s did not meet local "green" requirements, but exceptions were made for MotoGP. (sounds stupid)
3. Cost. The lower categories in GP are not funded as robustly as the premier class. (plausible, but still stupid given they make it to Indy, and now Austin. But maybe that was the 'initial' thought. And giving them a break in 05 mid-season probably sounded like a "good idea". Still, stupid imho).
4. Noise pollution. The rich property owners around the circuit (who live far enough away from the tarmac and shouldn't give a ....) complained the lower categories were too loud. (plausible, but again, stupid).
5. Not enuf garages. (.... them, they are "lower" categories. Use a tent MF).
6. Track signage. Dorna has issues with some Laguna sponsors and havent quite came to agreement. (Plausible, Dorna are some greedy control freaks).
Krop, I've asked this in the comments section on Motomatters and even put out a tweet to you, but so far haven't got an answer. Are you aware of any contract between Scramp and the AMA to run AMA races on the Laguna Seca GP weekend, thus preventing the running of Moto 2 and Moto 3 there because there's no room left on the schedule. I talked to a person at Austin, who has connections with the US tracks and Ducati NA, that told me this was the real reason we don't see the lower classes in Monterey rather than the accepted notion of travel costs. I thought Qatar paid for all the yearly travel costs of Moto GP.[/quote]
I'm sure Krops will have a more accurate answer, but I heard a few things:
1. AMA was placed as the support categories because initially the fear was GP alone would not attract attendance, (if true they were and are wrong). Since then they have not rectified the mistake.
2. Initially, 125 and 250s did not meet local "green" requirements, but exceptions were made for MotoGP. (sounds stupid)
3. Cost. The lower categories in GP are not funded as robustly as the premier class. (plausible, but still stupid given they make it to Indy, and now Austin. But maybe that was the 'initial' thought. And giving them a break in 05 mid-season probably sounded like a "good idea". Still, stupid imho).
4. Noise pollution. The rich property owners around the circuit (who live far enough away from the tarmac and shouldn't give a ....) complained the lower categories were too loud. (plausible, but again, stupid).
5. Not enuf garages. (.... them, they are "lower" categories. Use a tent MF).
6. Track signage. Dorna has issues with some Laguna sponsors and havent quite came to agreement. (Plausible, Dorna are some greedy control freaks).
Joined May 2008
3K Posts | 79+
Southern Aridzona - Hell's doorstep.
Looks like they've installed a big chicane at the fast right, and have also been monkeying about with the one that precedes the S/F straight.
As much as I hate chicanes, the one before Spoon is probably a sensible addition. (Although I reserve the right to ..... about it being slower than necessary!) Given the layout of the track, there's really no way to increase the run-off although it appears that they could, money willing, move the entire track north ~150 feet.
.... only knows what they're doing with the 'old' chicane. Looks like they installed an even more constipated version. (Or is that just an escape/overshoot road?)
Even hacked up, Suzuka must be considered vastly preferable - by ALL involved - to Motegi?
As much as I hate chicanes, the one before Spoon is probably a sensible addition. (Although I reserve the right to ..... about it being slower than necessary!) Given the layout of the track, there's really no way to increase the run-off although it appears that they could, money willing, move the entire track north ~150 feet.
.... only knows what they're doing with the 'old' chicane. Looks like they installed an even more constipated version. (Or is that just an escape/overshoot road?)
Even hacked up, Suzuka must be considered vastly preferable - by ALL involved - to Motegi?
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
+ ....... 1.
that chicane has been there for quite some time, not sure how long though... arrab/krop, was that chicane already there in the early 2000s?
Geonerd
that chicane has been there for quite some time, not sure how long though... arrab/krop, was that chicane already there in the early 2000s?
Geonerd
Joined Feb 2007
6K Posts | 58+
Rovrum S,Yorks Eng
motogp is going Tour De France. Spanish style Tour De Spain Vueltarse
and they might allow the odd race outside Spain like Le Tour
depends which circuits do the most Ball licking / tickling
Brazil 2014 what a load of bollocks get a race in Switzerland now that would be worth news.
and they might allow the odd race outside Spain like Le Tour
depends which circuits do the most Ball licking / tickling
Brazil 2014 what a load of bollocks get a race in Switzerland now that would be worth news.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
cliché guevara
Yup...long before - although hard to tell from the aerial view whether there is any significant alteration or the addition of a run off road as Geo suggests might be the case.
I remember Luccio Checchinello colliding with Stefano Perugini in a 125 race ( the same day Kato died I think ) and snapping his front brake lever and going hurtling over the grass before the chicane. I don't remember whether he rejoined via an overshoot road - just remember him grass tracking at about 90mph.
Yup...long before - although hard to tell from the aerial view whether there is any significant alteration or the addition of a run off road as Geo suggests might be the case.
I remember Luccio Checchinello colliding with Stefano Perugini in a 125 race ( the same day Kato died I think ) and snapping his front brake lever and going hurtling over the grass before the chicane. I don't remember whether he rejoined via an overshoot road - just remember him grass tracking at about 90mph.
Joined Mar 2010
543 Posts | 1+
Jumkie
Interesting. U've obviously been the Dorna CEO (because apparently we can't comment on stuff around here that we haven't done first hand).
Honestly I don't think Laguna should be banned, but I would consider it more/equally as dangerous as Suzuka.
T1 would get very serious very quickly if you ran wide trying to pass around the outside. T6 (although maybe it just looks that way on TV - you'd have to really .... it up). But mainly the Corkscrew, if one of the more ambitious riders suddenly thinks they are Rossi/Marquez and ..... it up, you could end perpendicular to the racing line at the bottom. Any section of track that folds back on itself has this problem.
You wouldn't expect it but the T1 & T2 section of Phillip Island is pretty dangerous in car racing with cars having the momentum to go all the way across the gravel and grass to end up back on the racetrack.
Interesting. U've obviously been the Dorna CEO (because apparently we can't comment on stuff around here that we haven't done first hand).
Honestly I don't think Laguna should be banned, but I would consider it more/equally as dangerous as Suzuka.
T1 would get very serious very quickly if you ran wide trying to pass around the outside. T6 (although maybe it just looks that way on TV - you'd have to really .... it up). But mainly the Corkscrew, if one of the more ambitious riders suddenly thinks they are Rossi/Marquez and ..... it up, you could end perpendicular to the racing line at the bottom. Any section of track that folds back on itself has this problem.
You wouldn't expect it but the T1 & T2 section of Phillip Island is pretty dangerous in car racing with cars having the momentum to go all the way across the gravel and grass to end up back on the racetrack.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
Sloth_27
Bikes have done it too, with riders dumping it to avoid ending up in Turn 3. Rare, though.
But the facilities at PI are crap. Tents on the tarmac behind the pits for the poorer teams...water pouring through them when it rains. Tents on the garage roof for the VIP nobs and Journos (nobs).
Don't care though, as the circuit is just ....... magnificent.
Bikes have done it too, with riders dumping it to avoid ending up in Turn 3. Rare, though.
But the facilities at PI are crap. Tents on the tarmac behind the pits for the poorer teams...water pouring through them when it rains. Tents on the garage roof for the VIP nobs and Journos (nobs).
Don't care though, as the circuit is just ....... magnificent.
Dr No
Pretty sure this was the scenario that lead to a fatality in one of the support races at the WSBK round there last year.
I'm sure every track has some potential to cause such grief, but for the most part it is what it is ...
If we're gunna wrap these guys in cotton wool and guarantee the perfect run-off for every corner than you may as well call it F1
Pretty sure this was the scenario that lead to a fatality in one of the support races at the WSBK round there last year.
I'm sure every track has some potential to cause such grief, but for the most part it is what it is ...
If we're gunna wrap these guys in cotton wool and guarantee the perfect run-off for every corner than you may as well call it F1
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
Arrabbiata1
Shame, really, as it's one of the greatest circuits on the planet.
As far as Laguna goes, I heard rumor in Indianapolis that their press officers were telling some journalists that the "long-term deal" they're supposedly negotiating is already a done deal—seven-year extension. That seems like an awful long time to me, and I wonder if someone misspoke, misunderstood, etc. as next year will be the seventh Indy GP. Ether way, with IMS committing serious money to track alterations—resurfacing, opening up turn four and the final corner, I believe—and an announcement proclaiming they're working with Dorna on a long-term deal, I can't imagine that contract isn't extended. Laguna may have a contract for 2014, but I'd be surprised if MotoGP stays beyond that. Facilities and money are too good at Indy and Austin.
The accident was a loss of control, but he did collide with a guardrail on the outside of the entrance to the chicane. Like you said, absolute freak accident, but everyone was up in arms about the lack of runoff room. Valentino vowed he'd never race there again, if I remember corrctly.3589091377075108
Yes it is..Sloth is right, there were a few eyebrows raised when it was dropped and Laguna reinstated in spite of the alterations made. Suzuka was made a scapegoat following the post Kato witchhunt. Daijoiro's accident was a freak caused by a loss of control - nothing to do with the track surface - and there are many circuits where it could have occured.
Exactly right. There had been a sucession of accidents prior to the Kato accident. I remember both both Barros and Melandri sustaining very nasty injuries there. Spoon was notorious - Kiyo crashed there in this years 8 hour - and there are sections in of the track where the armco is still terrifyingly close - although I can cite many similar hazards on a great many tracks that we currently visit. 'Motorsport is dangerous' remember?
Nonetheless - it's a true racers circuit. Some of my most memorable GP moments and races come from Suzuka including what Rainey treasures as his greatest race ever. There was always an abundance of over enthusiatic Japanese Wild Cards linied up in every class and ready to go Banzai for out entertainment.
But most significantly...two words -
Mr.Donut...
122_0802_01_z+norifumi_abe+red_honda_nsr5001.jpg
Shame, really, as it's one of the greatest circuits on the planet.
As far as Laguna goes, I heard rumor in Indianapolis that their press officers were telling some journalists that the "long-term deal" they're supposedly negotiating is already a done deal—seven-year extension. That seems like an awful long time to me, and I wonder if someone misspoke, misunderstood, etc. as next year will be the seventh Indy GP. Ether way, with IMS committing serious money to track alterations—resurfacing, opening up turn four and the final corner, I believe—and an announcement proclaiming they're working with Dorna on a long-term deal, I can't imagine that contract isn't extended. Laguna may have a contract for 2014, but I'd be surprised if MotoGP stays beyond that. Facilities and money are too good at Indy and Austin.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
1. Ah now I remember why I thought U've been there, because I invited u right. Couldnt remember if that was u or Dr.No. anyway, no u dont need to do something "first hand" to comment, im all for opinions buddy. I imagine in this case u'd need to ride the track at speed (which I've never done) I suppose; so absent that, nah man, i agree comment is fine. But at very least it would help to 'see' it in real life since its elevation changes are not adequately depicted on TV (which helps in analyzing the track).
2. Of the 18 tracks on the calendar, why u chose Laguna to say it should be banned made me shake my head. At first I thought u were just fishing. Then realized u wernt. That made me shake my head too.
3. I think Suzuka got a bad rap and was perhaps a bit of a kneejerk reaction to suspend it from the calendar after Kato's death. If I recall, John Hopkins was later penalized and many people felt it was still a hang over of the overreaction to the tragic incident. I honestly dont blame them. There were high hopes for Kato and the Japanese must have been devastated. Perhaps by ur logic Sepang should be banned since Marco died regardless of the unlikely and freakish circumstances. U walked back ur call to "ban" Laguna; but still stuck to ur guns that its "equally as dangerous as Suzuka?" Uhm...
4. I honestly dont know where to begin responding to ur reasons why certain turns may be "dangerous". I thought when u stated the track should be banned that u had something specific and substantive. But it appears ur clutching a bit buddy. T1 is the turn I consider to be the most spectacular. One needs to be very brave there, but its not because of inadequate run off or unsafe barriers, but rather because its a blind exit from the approach. There are a set of cones on the exit that riders often touch. They're there to help the riders get barring to the correct race line. Scarry, yes, but to distinguish as dangerous? Its a awesome part of the track, actually my favorite. But dangerous? Well, if it were, we would have heard Mat Mladin refuse to race there because he was one of the most outspoken riders in terms of track safety. Mladin was not adverse to boycotting a track or race if he felt there were safely concerns. I dont ever recall him or other riders saying T1 was unsafe to the point of the track needing serious renovation.
T6 is in between going up hill from 5 toward the crest before the Corkscrew. The run off is adequate...unless u decided not to attempt the turn at all and instead tucked under the bubble and pin the throttle. Nicky did NOT do this at Aragon yet managed to be catapulted over the wall like a rag doll. That wouldn't happen at T6 because the run off is deep sand that scrubs speed rather effectively.
The Corkscrew. Here TV totally does not depict the characteristics of this "chicane". Actually, the elevation change makes it safer than ur typical flat chicane because ....... up the approach puts u high into the gravel. If u slighly overshoot it (or are forced off and wide like what VR did to Marc this year) the speed u scrubbed to make the 'drop' (again unlike a flat chicane) is significant mitigating the danger. Now if ur silver bullet is the possibility of a crashed rider ending up "perpendicular" on the track by overshooting a chicane, then the Corkscrew is probably one of the safest chicanes because the elevation change adds to the rider's understanding that speed must be scrubbed on the approach (not at the chicane itself). The chicane at Assen going into the straight is 10x more dangerous! Maybe they should ban the DutchTT, eh?
5. I dont know. That track is super fast just about everywhere. Pedro had a nasty off at T? (Maybe 2). All I remember was him tumbling down at a massive rate of speed. He ran a bit wide on a left hander and touching the end of the track sent him sailing. Was there adequate run off? As I recall, yes. So this begs the question, what makes a part of a track "dangerous"? Take a look at Indy. Stoner lambasted the track for being dangerous. Why? Well review the track, u'll find ample run off. He wasn't talking about the wall down the straight either. But rather he didnt like the change in grip between various tarmac. (They had repaved it btw, but I guess the track was green still). But look at this year, who said the track was dangerous enuf to be banned? They expressed it was 'tricky' and objected to the layout as awkward in some parts. So there are several things to consider. I personally think Imola is a death trap. Never been there. But that armco seperated by grass (making it slippery if u go off) to the track seems dangerous to me. Turn 11 at Istanbul is flat out, it was the fastest turn when it was on the calendar. Scarry, probably but dangerous, nah.
Joined Mar 2010
543 Posts | 1+
I think you got me wrong about Suzuka and Laguna. I don't think either of them should be banned, and I never said that. I just meant to say that if they (FIM?) banned Suzuka because it is dangerous, you could apply the same logic to probably half the tracks on the calendar.
I've never been to Laguna, but I'm going to try to make it happen next year or the one after (assuming they don't dump it).
Try not to be so sensitive ffs.
I've never been to Laguna, but I'm going to try to make it happen next year or the one after (assuming they don't dump it).
Try not to be so sensitive ffs.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Well actually u raise a great question. I dont think Suzuka is ever comming back to GP since Japanese racing fans, and frankly fans around the world still view it with a heavy connotation that it killed Kato. Its tainted. But there really are some great classic races there.
Laguna is a great spectator track. Its not the best one nor as world class as the top circuits on tbe calendar. I just didnt think it was any more or less dangerous. If I had to pick a dangerious turn I would have said T3. Though its not a high speed turn the run off is barely adequate. That's why they put up air fencing. Anyway ur welcome to stay with us in the camping area. Its a small narrow track, certainly not as manicured as others; but viewing from the hill gives u a vantage point of 75 percent of track and the elevation changes give it much character.
Laguna is a great spectator track. Its not the best one nor as world class as the top circuits on tbe calendar. I just didnt think it was any more or less dangerous. If I had to pick a dangerious turn I would have said T3. Though its not a high speed turn the run off is barely adequate. That's why they put up air fencing. Anyway ur welcome to stay with us in the camping area. Its a small narrow track, certainly not as manicured as others; but viewing from the hill gives u a vantage point of 75 percent of track and the elevation changes give it much character.
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
David Emmett @motomatters1h
Ezpeleta just confirmed to Spanish TV that Laguna is off the celendar for 2014,
David Emmett @motomatters1h
Some discussion among my Spanish journo friends whether Ezpeleta actually said Laguna was off the calendar or not. Could still be on it.
Ezpeleta just confirmed to Spanish TV that Laguna is off the celendar for 2014,
David Emmett @motomatters1h
Some discussion among my Spanish journo friends whether Ezpeleta actually said Laguna was off the calendar or not. Could still be on it.
