Jorge $13,000,000 contract with Ducati

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 21 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Warning: Look away true Rossi fans. This is not meant for you, I'm on a rossi-bopper busting mission.



No, but his success has been greatly aided by inequitable glaring preferential treatment among other things, something you boys cannot acknowledge, which leaves him with god status at the same time coming up with every possible reason why the riders that beat him were unfairly aided in their titles.



Yes, I know, but I have been trying to school you. Its not working.



To answer your question, NO. There was one golden boy, his name is Rossi. He's a brand for Dorna, and they love the growth in viewership. So much so that they were willing to move heaven and earth in a very public show of preferential treatment at the end of 07 to make sure the golden egg laying machine stayed happy. Ah, how quickly you boys forget (or perhaps the special glasses you where impeded you from seeing) that Rossi threatened to leave MotoGP if he didn't get his way. Dorna very publicly acquiesced. And the message was there for the world to see, nothing would get in the way of motogp's golden boy.

Yes, a brand. Les you boys forget that Mick Doohan won 5 titles also, but was never much of a marketing jewel. Rossi is a promoter's wet dream. You boys love to say Rossi, the "8" time world champ, but lower class titles don't count. Rossi has so far won ONLY one more title than Doohan; yet Rossi has legend status as the GOAT. Why? Well, quite frankly, we love the guy not just for his success but for his personality. Something Doohan lacked, and hell something Stoner, though he put in the most amazing season in 07, has been jeered because he isn't great for PR.



Well no ....! I do not doubt Rossi needed very special tires to win. That is my point, isn't it? Interesting that when Michelin could no longer make those special tires Saturday night that Rossi's performance suffered. I can only imagine what this might have meant over the years for his rivals. Ah, but Dorna quickly realized their mistake , and at Rossi's bequest, and bam, motogp does the unprecedented and moves to a "spec" tire over night! Ah, but who's specs? I have no doubt Btones are made with him in mind, Dorna, the entity who awarded the contract (and clearly for Rossi alone), wouldn't have it any other way.



Ok, so what is your point? There are plenty of lower class champs in the series. What I'm saying is at the MotoGP level, he got special tires, period. This might explain why the other lower class champs haven't challenged so well, eh.



Ah, when you make such outrageous comments, its a sign you have nothing. Hahaha, I already explained this to inam, your alter ego, but in short: Yamaha and Honda have traded titles for the last 30 years. They are about the same. I'd say like today in fact. Honda may have had the slight advantage in 03, but then once he moved to the slightly less Yamaha, he took his great tires with him. Hell, it might explain why 03 Honda looked so much better than 03 Yamaha. Or are you going to say now that tires are not that important? Ask Rossi what he thinks on the importance of tires. I'm sure Barros did not have Michelin man on his speed dial.




Well when your special tires are holding up until the last laps, it’s not a mystery why you win at the end. Your point at the beginning of your post was that the Yamaha was .... compared to the Honda when he made the switch. Here you're inconsistent with your logic, as you admit that Rossi didn't clear out, which points to the competitiveness of his rivals machines. Interesting. So then what might be the difference. Hint: Tires.

Would you like me to go on debunking every point you boys make?

Where do you get these points from Jum? Is this based on printed or known/delusional fact?
The debate is pointless as it is based on unsupported opinions, if its not tell me where I can get a look at this info you are supplying here so I can agree?

One thing to your last point was- 4-time world champion and very popular (in Europe) Max Biaggi spent a lot of time on Michelin's.....did he not? Very popular in Spain was Gibbers, lots of $$$ from PR/Sponsors there too.
And don't give us the old 'smaller classes don't matter' ........, your initial comment was VR wouldn't have won any world champs if it wasn't for his tyres, or did you rework it to suit?
If it was so easy to win 125-250 champs why did CS not get one?

Honda had a slight advantage in 03? That would have to be the understatement of the century.....Yamaha hadn't won a world title since Rainy, correct me if I'm wrong.....but please correct me with facts (I can access from credible sources) next time

Ive said it on here god knows how many times. If anyone genuinely believes that all things are equal in Motorcycle racing at this or any time in history, then they are shockingly naive. If a team can offer a superior part or tyre, whatever to it's number one rider, then they will.

Rossi was responsible for bringing GP racing out of a pretty uninspiring (for the general public) era. If you were not a bike racing fan, then watching Doohan clear off week in week out was hardly gonna be riveting was it? Given that his after race quotes usually consisted of him growling about how people were following him everywhere, and that they should run their own race, he was hardly media friendly was he?

Doohan of course was followed (no pun intended!) as world champ by Alex Creville. A guy who made watching paint dry a preferable option to listen to him talk post race. Of course he was followed by KRJR, and having a Roberts at the pointy end of bike racing is always a good thing.

My point is Rossi brought a god given talent to GP mixed with a media savvy personality that brought GP racing back into the homes of the "non bike riding" public.

Does this mean he deserves preferential treatment from Dorna? No it doesn't, and I don't believe there has ever been a conspiracy to gift him race wins. He wanted, and got Bridgestones. I dont think we can put down a rider for wanting to try what appears to be superior rubber. He wants to win races, he wants the best he can get. Yes he got what he wanted, so what, the guy is going to carry clout due to his track record, and sorry, but it is in the interests of the sport for ALL of the top guys to have access to the best equipment so that we can see close exciting racing.

The point has also been made on here that 07 was an awesome combination of Stoner, Ducati and Bridgestone getting the new engine size and rules spot on. (Note 3 factors are credited!) I think looking back that most thought that the HRC pushed changes, together with the pocket sized Pedrosa were going to make for the title going to everybodies favourite dwarf. Ducati blind sided everyone when everything fell into place for them. But lets not forget that Capi was on fire the previous season on the 990, and the last race of the year was won by a wildcard on a Ducati, who although a great superbike rider, was hardly hot property in his term as a bona fide GP rider.

Human nature will always ensure there will never be a level playing field in motorsport. The best guys want the best equipment. Period.

As long as this makes for close and exciting racing on my TV on a Sunday, I'm not gonna waste my time with conspiracy theories.

I'm too busy enjoying the racing.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Aug 22 2009, 01:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Where do you get these points from Jum? Is this based on printed or known/delusional fact? The debate is pointless as it is based on unsupported opinions, if its not tell me where I can get a look at this info you are supplying here so I can agree?

So are you saying that Rossi getting special tires is not fact? (wow, talk about sticking head firmly in sand)




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>One thing to your last point was- 4-time world champion and very popular (in Europe) Max Biaggi spent a lot of time on Michelin's.....did he not? Very popular in Spain was Gibbers, lots of $$$ from PR/Sponsors there too.
So popular that Dorna, the entity that would make a deal with the devil if it meant viewership, would banish Biaggi? What do Biaggi and Gibbers have in common? Oh yeah, they were vilified because they dared challenge the darling of the sport. You want to talk popularity? Geez, I think bring up Biaggi/Gibbers vs. Rossi is NOT helping you point. Advantage: Me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>And don't give us the old 'smaller classes don't matter' ........, your initial comment was VR wouldn't have won any world champs if it wasn't for his tyres, or did you rework it to suit?

When I say "world championships" I never include lower classes. Those are minor leagues. Rossi's popularity trumped his processors, hence the 'golden boy status' and the preferential treatment directly.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>If it was so easy to win 125-250 champs why did CS not get one? They are not easy. But you twist words to make your position stronger, but your very transparent debate tactic only works on elementary school children. This is an adult debate, try sticking to sound logic and meaningful retorts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Honda had a slight advantage in 03? That would have to be the understatement of the century.....Yamaha hadn't won a world title since Rainy, correct me if I'm wrong.....but please correct me with facts (I can access from credible sources) next time

Ducati hadn't won a title since never, yet you and your bent are inclined to tell us how Ducati was so superior to its rival in 07, when in fact every other Ducati on the grid since the 800's have languished behind even Suzuki and many times Kawasaki (fact). I've started to realize that you perceive motogp as do my casual friends who come over and watch races, then go home never to thing about it again. They point to the winner and say, 'ah ha, he is the best, period.' They are not stupid, but simply don't follow the sport in depth to evaluate deeper.

From your statement above, one could say then that Honda, clearly far and away the best bike was the advantage for Rossi's first titles. Or are you now going to backpedal? Your point above is that Honda, having won a string of championships had such an advantage that it would be the "understatement of the century" as you put it. So what does that say about Rossi's Honda titles? Ah, see how you boys paint yourselves into a corner. I bet you will skip this in your reply. Hahaha.

You guys think I'm a Rossi hater, hell even my respectable friend Pete who knows I don't hate the guy are calling me out. But here is what you continue to fail to accept. It seems to be the exclusive passtime of Rossi fanboys such as yourself (and others easily identified on this forum) who have cried over and over that: 'those who beat Rossi did so with some unfair advantage'. Well then, when I point out the FACT that so did Rossi, you guys quickly call it hating & unsupported. But by your own admission above, you just said Honda had such an advantage over its rivals that it would be hard to "understate" it. Those are your words! Breathtaking. Perhaps we are making progress. You admit, Honda had an extraordinary "advantage"!

This is why I go after you, and that "other" member inam, and every other fanboy who gets my attention by talking up Rossi, the man, the rider, but make no mention of the clear and factual advantages that he enjoyed. When I say he had special considerations you guys don't deny them?

Here are the FACTS you call delusional:

Rossi got "special tires" FACT. (common knowledge, if I give you a credible quote from a credible source will you shut up about it forever, and keep your word? Will you say you don't believe it? According to you, you have followed the sport, you would know this already.)
Rossi had the best bike while at Honda. FACT (You just said so above).

Are you delusional?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Aug 22 2009, 02:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ive said it on here god knows how many times. If anyone genuinely believes that all things are equal in Motorcycle racing at this or any time in history, then they are shockingly naive. If a team can offer a superior part or tyre, whatever to it's number one rider, then they will.

Rossi was responsible for bringing GP racing out of a pretty uninspiring (for the general public) era. If you were not a bike racing fan, then watching Doohan clear off week in week out was hardly gonna be riveting was it? Given that his after race quotes usually consisted of him growling about how people were following him everywhere, and that they should run their own race, he was hardly media friendly was he?

Doohan of course was followed (no pun intended!) as world champ by Alex Creville. A guy who made watching paint dry a preferable option to listen to him talk post race. Of course he was followed by KRJR, and having a Roberts at the pointy end of bike racing is always a good thing.

My point is Rossi brought a god given talent to GP mixed with a media savvy personality that brought GP racing back into the homes of the "non bike riding" public.

Does this mean he deserves preferential treatment from Dorna? No it doesn't, and I don't believe there has ever been a conspiracy to gift him race wins. He wanted, and got Bridgestones. I dont think we can put down a rider for wanting to try what appears to be superior rubber. He wants to win races, he wants the best he can get. Yes he got what he wanted, so what, the guy is going to carry clout due to his track record, and sorry, but it is in the interests of the sport for ALL of the top guys to have access to the best equipment so that we can see close exciting racing.

Pete, an outstanding post (as usual). I see you called me out on another thread, and yes, I have been on a fanboy busting mission lately (some of which has include some stooping). Your post was carefully constructed; yet, refreshing coming from a Rossi fan (not to be confused with, etc. etc..) I agree with most of your post, as it is based on the reality of not just this sport, but life in general. You say he doesn't deserve preferential treatment, though at times he may have gotten a wink. You were careful to say he wasn't gifted any races in the classical sense of "throwing a race", I agree, yet you admit that he did get what he wanted because he had the clout, desire, and furthermore would be in the best interest of the sport; all true. This is a far cry from the fanboys who just deny it outright. Some people think that admitting the reality of enjoying some special treatment is an admission that his titles don't mean anything, which they do, however this should be factored in as part of the conversation when discussing championships (which I point and but received with pain by some).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The point has also been made on here that 07 was an awesome combination of Stoner, Ducati and Bridgestone getting the new engine size and rules spot on. (Note 3 factors are credited!) I think looking back that most thought that the HRC pushed changes, together with the pocket sized Pedrosa were going to make for the title going to everybodies favourite dwarf. Ducati blind sided everyone when everything fell into place for them. But lets not forget that Capi was on fire the previous season on the 990, and the last race of the year was won by a wildcard on a Ducati, who although a great superbike rider, was hardly hot property in his term as a bona fide GP rider.

Human nature will always ensure there will never be a level playing field in motorsport. The best guys want the best equipment. Period.

As long as this makes for close and exciting racing on my TV on a Sunday, I'm not gonna waste my time with conspiracy theories.

I'm too busy enjoying the racing.

This part I have some issues with. Yes, you credit the entire "package" including the rider, which I agree with. But you mention the 990 as a way to imply that the development of Ducati wasn't that far off in reference to the 800s, as you say they "got it right"? Why? The only Ducati that was "right" was Stoner's. The other Ducati's had similar measurable performance elements, yet they lagged way behind. Why say then that "Ducati" got it right? It seems to me that the more meaningful evaluation is "Stoner" got it right' les you forget that other 800 Ducatis with similar speed were no where near the front. If "Ducati" got it right, then would that mean the other Ducatis would have been very similar to what we see Yamaha doing this year. They are 1 & 2, plus their satelight is in the top 5. That is "getting it right". When only one bike of a particular brand is at the front while all similar machines are at the back, then it can only mean one thing--the RIDER got it right.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2009, 11:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pete, an outstanding post (as usual). I see you called me out on another thread, and yes, I have been on a fanboy busting mission lately (some of which has include some stooping). Your post was carefully constructed; yet, refreshing coming from a Rossi fan (not to be confused with, etc. etc..) I agree with most of your post, as it is based on the reality of not just this sport, but life in general. You say he doesn't deserve preferential treatment, though at times he may have gotten a wink. You were careful to say he wasn't gifted any races in the classical sense of "throwing a race", I agree, yet you admit that he did get what he wanted because he had the clout, desire, and furthermore would be in the best interest of the sport; all true. This is a far cry from the fanboys who just deny it outright. Some people think that admitting the reality of enjoying some special treatment is an admission that his titles don't mean anything, which they do, however this should be factored in as part of the conversation when discussing championships (which I point and but received with pain by some).



This part I have some issues with. Yes, you credit the entire "package" including the rider, which I agree with. But you mention the 990 as a way to imply that the development of Ducati wasn't that far off in reference to the 800s, as you say they "got it right"? Why? The only Ducati that was "right" was Stoner's. The other Ducati's had similar measurable performance elements, yet they lagged way behind. Why say then that "Ducati" got it right? It seems to me that the more meaningful evaluation is "Stoner" got it right' les you forget that other 800 Ducatis with similar speed were no where near the front. If "Ducati" got it right, then would that mean the other Ducatis would have been very similar to what we see Yamaha doing this year. They are 1 & 2, plus their satelight is in the top 5. That is "getting it right". When only one bike of a particular brand is at the front while all similar machines are at the back, then it can only mean one thing--the RIDER got it right.


Fair do's Jumkie, only one Ducati got everything right for 07, which points to Stoner being something special as a rider. Which as you know, I wouldn't argue with. However, as we both agree, the number one rider will always rise to favoured status, it's not unreasonable to assume that after Casey's demolition job of the opposition at the early races, his Duke and tyres became a bit more "right" than the others.

The Ducati is not a bike that anyone can jump on and go fast, but, like Rossi at Yamaha, the bike will be developed around the number one. If other riders do not have a similar style to Casey,
then they will struggle with the bike. It was said in the mid 90's that the only way to win on the Aprilia 250 was to ride it, and set it up like Biaggi. Memorably, only one guy ever made a fist of the Honda 500 screamer around the same time......

Casey's 2007 achievement was awesome, I'd never (seriously) say otherwise, but I think it is also an example of some of the same treatments that Rossi has also enjoyed.

As much as we'd all like our favoured riders to be battling against the odds on a level playing field, the reality is a bit different. But as I say, if I'm getting good racing, I'm not gonna get oo worked up about it.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Aug 22 2009, 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fair do's Jumkie, only one Ducati got everything right for 07, which points to Stoner being something special as a rider. Which as you know, I wouldn't argue with. However, as we both agree, the number one rider will always rise to favoured status, it's not unreasonable to assume that after Casey's demolition job of the opposition at the early races, his Duke and tyres became a bit more "right" than the others.

Agree with this piece Pete and really, let us be honest in that it makes good business sense for a manufacturer to ensure that their best asset (the winningest or #1 rider) receives full support in all aspects of their work. Be that first choice of updates, first try at parts to leading the direction of all development activity, it goes without saying that it is indeed a fair practice for the manufacturer.

But, and I may well be wrong but one of Jumkie's points is that if the organising or ruling body then bestow preferential treatments onto a rider and/or team, that is unfair within the context of competition.

Apologies as I am not certain of your country location, but we will all whinge, ..... or complain when our favoured football team is on the wrong end of a dubious penalty, or when the high profile player gets a lighter penalty to others. We will cry foul at the favouritism and create within our own heads a belief (right or wrong) that the organising body with its vested interest is ensuring that team A receives all benefit etc.

To me and I am sure a great number of people, if this occurs than that is separate altogether and wrong within the context of all competition as a governing body should at all times be impartial and removed from the individual or team level. Their job is to foster competion and fair play within the sport whilst ensuring it's survival and continued prosperity (a balancing act itself).

But yes, within teams and probably even manufacturers some will receive benefit that is not immediately available to others.




Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 22 2009, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Agree with this piece Pete and really, let us be honest in that it makes good business sense for a manufacturer to ensure that their best asset (the winningest or #1 rider) receives full support in all aspects of their work. Be that first choice of updates, first try at parts to leading the direction of all development activity, it goes without saying that it is indeed a fair practice for the manufacturer.

But, and I may well be wrong but one of Jumkie's points is that if the organising or ruling body then bestow preferential treatments onto a rider and/or team, that is unfair within the context of competition.

Apologies as I am not certain of your country location, but we will all whinge, ..... or complain when our favoured football team is on the wrong end of a dubious penalty, or when the high profile player gets a lighter penalty to others. We will cry foul at the favouritism and create within our own heads a belief (right or wrong) that the organising body with its vested interest is ensuring that team A receives all benefit etc.

To me and I am sure a great number of people, if this occurs than that is separate altogether and wrong within the context of all competition as a governing body should at all times be impartial and removed from the individual or team level. Their job is to foster competion and fair play within the sport whilst ensuring it's survival and continued prosperity (a balancing act itself).

But yes, within teams and probably even manufacturers some will receive benefit that is not immediately available to others.




Gaz

Yeah, were on he same track mate. I have to say that I do not believe that Dorna are helping anyone in particular in GP. At the end of the day, Rossi's move to Bridgestone was, IMO, (and I may well be wrong) between Rossi's Yamaha team and the tyre company. On the flip side of this, the way WSBK have bent over backwards to Ducati over the years has really rubbed me up the wrong way.

Oh aye bye the way, my nationality is of course Scottish.

And as Jumkie knows, If it's not Scottish, IT'S CRAP!!!!!!


Pete

Crazy Jorge will not do .... on a bike unless it's developed by GOD and BUDA...


end of topic..i win. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Aug 22 2009, 04:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fair do's Jumkie, only one Ducati got everything right for 07, which points to Stoner being something special as a rider. Which as you know, I wouldn't argue with. However, as we both agree, the number one rider will always rise to favoured status, it's not unreasonable to assume that after Casey's demolition job of the opposition at the early races, his Duke and tyres became a bit more "right" than the others.

The Ducati is not a bike that anyone can jump on and go fast, but, like Rossi at Yamaha, the bike will be developed around the number one. If other riders do not have a similar style to Casey,
then they will struggle with the bike. It was said in the mid 90's that the only way to win on the Aprilia 250 was to ride it, and set it up like Biaggi. Memorably, only one guy ever made a fist of the Honda 500 screamer around the same time......

Casey's 2007 achievement was awesome, I'd never (seriously) say otherwise, but I think it is also an example of some of the same treatments that Rossi has also enjoyed.

As much as we'd all like our favoured riders to be battling against the odds on a level playing field, the reality is a bit different. But as I say, if I'm getting good racing, I'm not gonna get oo worked up about it.

Pete

Adults at play children, move along, nothing to see here. Fucken eh Pete, why don't you grace us with your presence more often brotha? You have restored much of my faith. I've been seeing vision of late 06 lately and thought there was no end in sight. Hahahaha

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Aug 22 2009, 05:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And as Jumkie knows, If it's not Scottish, IT'S CRAP!!!!!!
Being so close to England, I'd say you're right.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2009, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So are you saying that Rossi getting special tires is not fact? (wow, talk about sticking head firmly in sand)

Never said that, I asked where you got your points, note the 's', you bring up the one which we know is fact here, rather conveniently, explain to us the origin's of your 'preferential treatment theories' and so on....I said Colin was quoted in an interview saying 'Rossi's specials are too hard for me to race on' Does this make them special-yes, does this give VR an unfair advantage-to me no, VR was just one of the few who could make them work over race distance.

Explain to us 08 then Jum, if tyres were sooooooo important to VR's success, how did he win this one under dorna's new strict rules.....oh yeah he had help from the Klingons!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2009, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So popular that Dorna, the entity that would make a deal with the devil if it meant viewership, would banish Biaggi? What do Biaggi and Gibbers have in common? Oh yeah, they were vilified because they dared challenge the darling of the sport. You want to talk popularity? Geez, I think bring up Biaggi/Gibbers vs. Rossi is NOT helping you point. Advantage: Me.

Not true mate, Telefonica thought Gibbers was more than worth the price of admission-for years, and Biaggi had 15000 people turn up to watch him test the Suzuki pre WSBK. Watch the 'Faster' DVD again, particularly the part focussing on Mugello and the Rossi/Biaggi rivalry, plenty of Biaggi fans back then.
Tell me where I can find info on the 'Deal with the Devil'
Deuce

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2009, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When I say "world championships" I never include lower classes. Those are minor leagues. Rossi's popularity trumped his processors, hence the 'golden boy status' and the preferential treatment directly.

True fans of the sport respect world championships in 'ALL' categories, the minor classes are breeding grounds for the future, their importance is crucial in this debate, as you originally stated that VR couldn't win a world title anywhere without his special tyres, so next time you come up with more rubbish like this please don't forget to tell us you only meant Premier Class, oh hang on that was a back peddle to cover the smell of the .... still lingering from the original post.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2009, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They are not easy. But you twist words to make your position stronger, but your very transparent debate tactic only works on elementary school children. This is an adult debate, try sticking to sound logic and meaningful retorts.

Ah hah, so where not in the sand pit anymore. Thank god bass Pete brought some Adult perspective here. Jum your original post stated outrageous point like , 'VR couldn't win a world title without his special tyres' and 'Slap Rossi on a Duck, Kwaka or Suzuki and see what happens' and 'which year on those other brands would he have delivered' all pointless child like rhetoric.

and to the latter I dare say he would have delivered plenty on the Duck in 07.....but of course all if's and maybes, the origins of this are childish Jum. Which I pointed out to begin with.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2009, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducati hadn't won a title since never, yet you and your bent are inclined to tell us how Ducati was so superior to its rival in 07, when in fact every other Ducati on the grid since the 800's have languished behind even Suzuki and many times Kawasaki (fact). I've started to realize that you perceive motogp as do my casual friends who come over and watch races, then go home never to thing about it again. They point to the winner and say, 'ah ha, he is the best, period.' They are not stupid, but simply don't follow the sport in depth to evaluate deeper.

Your dodging the issue, Yamaha (in 04) hadn't won a title since Rainey, and you stated that Honda and Yamaha had been exchanging titles for 30 years-which is true. But you can't say they were at all competitive with Honda from the 94-04, that's rubbish and that was my point, VR had the best bike in the Honda and switched to the far less competitive M1 in 04 and won the world title. So the point is he hasn't always had the best package and has still won-which nullifies your original post completely.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2009, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>From your statement above, one could say then that Honda, clearly far and away the best bike was the advantage for Rossi's first titles. Or are you now going to backpedal? Your point above is that Honda, having won a string of championships had such an advantage that it would be the "understatement of the century" as you put it. So what does that say about Rossi's Honda titles? Ah, see how you boys paint yourselves into a corner. I bet you will skip this in your reply. Hahaha.

It says, as I stated above, but will say again, as some only see what they want, that VR had a distinct disadvantage by moving to the Yamaha in 04 and still won-right. So if all of his titles were all about his equipment being superior explain this one then......did his magic michys give the M1 more horsepower as well? Remember your original post.....

You said that the Honda had a slight advantage in 03, to allude that VR's switch to Yamaha wasn't such a big deal as the Yam was close to the Honda back then, which is Rubbish aimed to discredit VR's development of the M1. Oh and by the way who else has won consecutive world titles on different manufactures in the past 20 years?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2009, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You guys think I'm a Rossi hater, hell even my respectable friend Pete who knows I don't hate the guy are calling me out. But here is what you continue to fail to accept. It seems to be the exclusive passtime of Rossi fanboys such as yourself (and others easily identified on this forum) who have cried over and over that: 'those who beat Rossi did so with some unfair advantage'. Well then, when I point out the FACT that so did Rossi, you guys quickly call it hating & unsupported. But by your own admission above, you just said Honda had such an advantage over its rivals that it would be hard to "understate" it. Those are your words! Breathtaking. Perhaps we are making progress. You admit, Honda had an extraordinary "advantage"!

I never said those who beat him had an unfair advantage, they had advantages but .... its prototype racing, but you said VR has had unfair advantages which is the only reason he has won so many titles, this is what we are arguing. I never said you hated Rossi. And I've already covered the Honda Point. So instead of painting us all with the same brush, check your facts and keep the discussion on an adult level


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2009, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is why I go after you, and that "other" member inam, and every other fanboy who gets my attention by talking up Rossi, the man, the rider, but make no mention of the clear and factual advantages that he enjoyed. When I say he had special considerations you guys don't deny them?

I can't believe we have to go to so much trouble to defend VR here, and of course I wouldn't just do it for VR. Your original post was full of unsupported rubbish which deserved to be challenged. If it was any other rider I would challenge as I support factual argument.

If Colin could also get and use Rossi's special Michys and tell us all about them, then how exclusive were they? I can't say if VR has had other special considerations as I have never worked for him or MotoGP, have you? Bring me the facts from reliable sources about all of VR's special considerations and I will agree with you.....


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2009, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here are the FACTS you call delusional:

Rossi got "special tires" FACT. (common knowledge, if I give you a credible quote from a credible source will you shut up about it forever, and keep your word? Will you say you don't believe it? According to you, you have followed the sport, you would know this already.)
Rossi had the best bike while at Honda. FACT (You just said so above).

Are you delusional?

Not delusional, but you are very good at avoiding the point and filling these post with BS at an attempt to grandstand, Rog please post that 'Jumkie needs food' Troll pic again.....yes I have been around here for a while.....once again Honda argument busted above

Rossi got tyres to suit him, as all other riders could have back then, this is prototype racing if VR/JB were clever enough to know what they needed to win then don't they deserve some credit for that? Once again if Colin tried them how special were they.
And beyond this VR took one season in 07 to adapt to the new tyre regulations and the 800cc format, knew he couldn't win with Michys anymore and switched-at the end of the season mind you.
Gibbers and Biaggi's tyres use to last pretty well too by the way, many last lap battles between those two and VR. And these battles are the reason why we are here on this forum, as Bass Pete said, VR has been instrumental in lifting the sport to its current levels of popularity.
I believe the most preferential treatment of any rider we have seen would have to be Pedrobots tyre switch mid-season.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Aug 22 2009, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Never said that, I asked where you got your points, note the 's', you bring up the one which we know is fact here, rather conveniently, explain to us the origin's of your 'preferential treatment theories' and so on....I said Colin was quoted in an interview saying 'Rossi's specials are too hard for me to race on' Does this make them special-yes, does this give VR an unfair advantage-to me no, VR was just one of the few who could make them work over race distance.

Explain to us 08 then Jum, if tyres were sooooooo important to VR's success, how did he win this one under dorna's new strict rules.....oh yeah he had help from the Klingons!




Not true mate, Telefonica thought Gibbers was more than worth the price of admission-for years, and Biaggi had 15000 people turn up to watch him test the Suzuki pre WSBK. Watch the 'Faster' DVD again, particularly the part focussing on Mugello and the Rossi/Biaggi rivalry, plenty of Biaggi fans back then.
Tell me where I can find info on the 'Deal with the Devil'
Deuce



True fans of the sport respect world championships in 'ALL' categories, the minor classes are breeding grounds for the future, their importance is crucial in this debate, as you originally stated that VR couldn't win a world title anywhere without his special tyres, so next time you come up with more rubbish like this please don't forget to tell us you only meant Premier Class, oh hang on that was a back peddle to cover the smell of the .... still lingering from the original post.



Ah hah, so where not in the sand pit anymore. Thank god bass Pete brought some Adult perspective here. Jum your original post stated outrageous point like , 'VR couldn't win a world title without his special tyres' and 'Slap Rossi on a Duck, Kwaka or Suzuki and see what happens' and 'which year on those other brands would he have delivered' all pointless child like rhetoric.

and to the latter I dare say he would have delivered plenty on the Duck in 07.....but of course all if's and maybes, the origins of this are childish Jum. Which I pointed out to begin with.



Your dodging the issue, Yamaha (in 04) hadn't won a title since Rainey, and you stated that Honda and Yamaha had been exchanging titles for 30 years-which is true. But you can't say they were at all competitive with Honda from the 94-04, that's rubbish and that was my point, VR had the best bike in the Honda and switched to the far less competitive M1 in 04 and won the world title. So the point is he hasn't always had the best package and has still won-which nullifies your original post completely.



It says, as I stated above, but will say again, as some only see what they want, that VR had a distinct disadvantage by moving to the Yamaha in 04 and still won-right. So if all of his titles were all about his equipment being superior explain this one then......did his magic michys give the M1 more horsepower as well? Remember your original post.....

You said that the Honda had a slight advantage in 03, to allude that VR's switch to Yamaha wasn't such a big deal as the Yam was close to the Honda back then, which is Rubbish aimed to discredit VR's development of the M1. Oh and by the way who else has won consecutive world titles on different manufactures in the past 20 years?



I never said those who beat him had an unfair advantage, they had advantages but .... its prototype racing, but you said VR has had unfair advantages which is the only reason he has won so many titles, this is what we are arguing. I never said you hated Rossi. And I've already covered the Honda Point. So instead of painting us all with the same brush, check your facts and keep the discussion on an adult level




I can't believe we have to go to so much trouble to defend VR here, and of course I wouldn't just do it for VR. Your original post was full of unsupported rubbish which deserved to be challenged. If it was any other rider I would challenge as I support factual argument.

If Colin could also get and use Rossi's special Michys and tell us all about them, then how exclusive were they? I can't say if VR has had other special considerations as I have never worked for him or MotoGP, have you? Bring me the facts from reliable sources about all of VR's special considerations and I will agree with you.....




Not delusional, but you are very good at avoiding the point and filling these post with BS at an attempt to grandstand, Rog please post that 'Jumkie needs food' Troll pic again.....yes I have been around here for a while.....once again Honda argument busted above

Rossi got tyres to suit him, as all other riders could have back then, this is prototype racing if VR/JB were clever enough to know what they needed to win then don't they deserve some credit for that? Once again if Colin tried them how special were they.
And beyond this VR took one season in 07 to adapt to the new tyre regulations and the 800cc format, knew he couldn't win with Michys anymore and switched-at the end of the season mind you.
Gibbers and Biaggi's tyres use to last pretty well too by the way, many last lap battles between those two and VR. And these battles are the reason why we are here on this forum, as Bass Pete said, VR has been instrumental in lifting the sport to its current levels of popularity.
I believe the most preferential treatment of any rider we have seen would have to be Pedrobots tyre switch mid-season.....
+1 again Talpa for your post mate, you have covered all the points in your post although some times its not easy to reply to the post which are full of self generated facts.

Jumkie you still didn't answer me why dorna scrap the special tyre rule if Rossi was doing so well on them.

I always said the Ducati had the advantage in 07 but not unfair unlike you who thinks Rossi had the unfair advantage all these years.

You can't win anymore jumkie with your self generated facts buddy so its time we better move on.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 23 2009, 06:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I always said the Ducati had the advantage in 07 but not unfair unlike you who thinks Rossi had the unfair advantage all these years.


and boy were you ( and still are being) owned for thinking that

That was the dumbest Rossifan fairytale yet Ouch!!

you seem you cant understand that it doesnt matter. if you are able to have an advantage the others dont, you are not going to say "oh, i want to beat them fair and square" what every racer does in practice is trying to find something, a solution to a problem, a better setup, an advantage in a few words, the others wont have.

if any racer had the opportunity to have special tyres for him, or any advantage anyway, he wouldnt say no, this is world level, lots of money and fame involved. if rossi had that chance, then good for him, too bad for the others, but as i said dont expect him to feel sorry or something.

however i think that's not the case now, everyone has the same tyres, and rossi still wins. so, everyone can say whatever he wants, but the actual fact is, that 99% he is the 2009 world champion and that is what matters.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Aug 23 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> and boy were you ( and still are being) owned for thinking that

That was the dumbest Rossifan fairytale yet Ouch!!
Look who is back from sookland.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 23 2009, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Look who is back from sookland.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 23 2009, 08:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Look who is back from sookland.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Aug 23 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> and boy were you ( and still are being) owned for thinking that

That was the dumbest Rossifan fairytale yet Ouch!!


Hey your back did you have a good holiday?

Shame about the cricket!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 22 2009, 01:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie you still didn't answer me why dorna scrap the special tyre rule if Rossi was doing so well on them.
I'm not ignoring you inam, I'm just tired of answering every point and counter point only to see you and talpa join a long list of members who can't see beyond the rossi-colored glasses. Fact is, as you can see, my posts are usually pretty detailed and you are by no means the first two who I've debated to the hilt only to discover that you haven't (or perhaps can't) follow the logic, be aware of the facts, and extrapolate from what is made public. You want me to answer a question but you have failed to counterpoint a plethora of points I made that frankly remain unchallenged and undebatable. I started to suspect this when you guys started to question the common knowledge fact about "special tires". So here is my advice. Get acquainted with Google. Read up, then we can debate again perhaps in the future when we both hae a basic body of knowledge about the sport.

Your question above is comical. I'm done educating the children.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 24 2009, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not ignoring you inam, I'm just tired of answering every point and counter point only to see you and talpa join a long list of members who can't see beyond the rossi-colored glasses. Fact is, as you can see, my posts are usually pretty detailed and you are by no means the first two who I've debated to the hilt only to discover that you haven't (or perhaps can't) follow the logic, be aware of the facts, and extrapolate from what is made public. You want me to answer a question but you have failed to counterpoint a plethora of points I made that frankly remain unchallenged and undebatable. I started to suspect this when you guys started to question the common knowledge fact about "special tires". So here is my advice. Get acquainted with Google. Read up, then we can debate again perhaps in the future when we both hae a basic body of knowledge about the sport.

Your question above is comical. I'm done educating the children.
Jumkie never denied or questioned special tyres thing in any of my post, if i did please provide the link but i do agree with you that both sides are not getting each others point here and after last post from Talpa i think you don't have anyhing left to defend your point of view.

I have seen Jumkie you have been calling my name in few of your posts and branding me one of blind Rossi fans but let me tell you where i stand with everything.

I am not a big fan of CS but i do admire his talent and would like to see him fully fit in future, what he has done on ducati is remarkable but the problem starts when you and few other start saying that he is good as Rossi or he is equal to Rossi.All i said in the past its way to early to compare him with Rossi give him few more years and then we will see where he stands.

I believe every rider who has won championships in past deserve full credit for that including CS and for sure they have won those with there own abilities and some time slight advantage with there equipment like yamaha has this season so far.

Lately you have been saying that yamaha got advantage over rest of the grid but you are very dismissive not to admit when anybody say same think about ducati in 07.