Jerez testing.

Bryan Staring isn't in motogp, he is in the Aprilia leftovers stragglers cup. 


 


I think Jum makes a point that there is a "whole of field" and the "capable of winning field", which is now 75% Spanish and 25% Italian.


 


In the history of the sport there was Australian, British and American riders on those 4 seats, not now.


 


The last colonial who left one of those seats left in a flurry of rule impositions (now dropped) threatened on his team and complains about the politics of the sport.


 


I work in a place where women are honestly just tolerated. They do however win enough good positions and so on just to shut the Equal Employment Opportunity mob up and no more. It is talked about openly in all male company (hey, I'm the union leader and they blab it out in front of me).


 


I know how this system works. Never the best job, just enough jobs, we couldn't help it that he had the best qualifications for that job, better luck next time eh?


 


Same same with motorbike racing.


 


That's how come we got the 75% Spanish cup.  

Andy Roo

3466331364474820

Bryan Staring isn't in motogp, he is in the Aprilia leftovers stragglers cup. 
 
I think Jum makes a point that there is a "whole of field" and the "capable of winning field", which is now 75% Spanish and 25% Italian.
 
In the history of the sport there was Australian, British and American riders on those 4 seats, not now.
 
The last colonial who left one of those seats left in a flurry of rule impositions (now dropped) threatened on his team and complains about the politics of the sport.
 
I work in a place where women are honestly just tolerated. They do however win enough good positions and so on just to shut the Equal Employment Opportunity mob up and no more. It is talked about openly in all male company (hey, I'm the union leader and they blab it out in front of me).
 
I know how this system works. Never the best job, just enough jobs, we couldn't help it that he had the best qualifications for that job, better luck next time eh?
 
Same same with motorbike racing.
 
That's how come we got the 75% Spanish cup.

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Name one Australian rider - with the exception of recent retirees - who could win a world title? Even Crutchlow, who I rate very highly, would stand no chance of the title on the factory Yam. I think he might win the odd race, but not the title.

Mental Anarchist

3466231364470649

 


I do not recall any other rider in any era doing race simulations like Lorenzo does.


 


Perhaps Lorenzo needs to do them so that is why those around him rank them so high up in the must do preparation.  I always hear this Lorenzo works so hard, Lorenzo is metronomic.  I see all the riders working hard.  Stoner worked just as hard as Lorenzo I have no doubt.  Just because he did not do what Lorenzo did does not mean he worked any less hard.


 


Lorenzo runs more traction control than any of the top riders.  Perhaps he needs to understand how the traction control will work through the whole race distance.  Other riders ride more with the throttle and therefore they are able to adapt their use of it as the bike changes through out a race.


 


If I was to back anyone I would back the rider who over a 5-6 year period beat every other rider across every stat when he says that race simulations are not necessary.


 


And on the Lorenzo being metronomic.  Well is Lorenzo metronomic or is the set up of the electronics metronomic?  I tend to think it is the electronics that are the real hero.  Either way Lorenzo bores the absolute .... out of me on a bike.  In line and all traction control.  Give me Stoner, Pedrosa, Rossi, and just about any other rider any day.

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You are stuck on this idea of work ethic as the premise to defend Stoner rather than the practical wisdom of ticking off as many variables that one can do to prepare for a race. Race simulation makes sense.  That Stoner did not employ it does not prove this was/is the preferred or wise approach.  I think Stoner was unique in many respects, and that uniqueness was evident in his approach, but I don't think most people can and should try to emulate this approach.  You keep banging on that Casey’s success is proof that his approach is the absolute correct one, and really its obvious this line of reasoning only comes from your attempt to justify to those that disparaged him for lacking work ethic.  This clouds your reasoning.  Stop trying to defend against this ridiculous notion that Stoner didn't work as hard as anybody else and try to analyze the benefit of testing what is to be learned from running a race distance in practice.  Yes there are pros and cons, and of course nothing can perfectly prepare a rider for race conditions, as there are still variable out of control, but a simulation of distance can surely bring about indispensable knowledge that otherwise may not have been readily apparent in short stints.
 
As I said before, Stoner's approach worked for him.  Most often than not, he was not caught out by something that would have only been ascertained during a race distance.  Again, he was so unique that even other riders said they could not emulate his riding style even after witnessing it time and time again, what makes you think they could or should try to emulate his practice approach? 

Jumkie

3466461364488656

You are stuck on this idea of work ethic as the premise to defend Stoner rather than the practical wisdom of ticking off as many variables that one can do to prepare for a race. Race simulation makes sense.  That Stoner did not employ it does not prove this was/is the preferred or wise approach.  I think Stoner was unique in many respects, and that uniqueness was evident in his approach, but I don't think most people can and should try to emulate this approach.  You keep banging on that Casey’s success is proof that his approach is the absolute correct one, and really its obvious this line of reasoning only comes from your attempt to justify to those that disparaged him for lacking work ethic.  This clouds your reasoning.  Stop trying to defend against this ridiculous notion that Stoner didn't work as hard as anybody else and try to analyze the benefit of testing what is to be learned from running a race distance in practice.  Yes there are pros and cons, and of course nothing can perfectly prepare a rider for race conditions, as there are still variable out of control, but a simulation of distance can surely bring about indispensable knowledge that otherwise may not have been readily apparent in short stints.
 
As I said before, Stoner's approach worked for him.  Most often than not, he was not caught out by something that would have only been ascertained during a race distance.  Again, he was so unique that even other riders said they could not emulate his riding style even after witnessing it time and time again, what makes you think they could or should try to emulate his practice approach?

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What Jum said, he's bang on the money. As in many of the arguments I try to make here, it's never a matter of black and white, but of a multicolored array of options and possibilities. Stoner's approach worked for Stoner, though I think he got caught out by the extra weight at the start of 2012. Lorenzo's approach works for Lorenzo, because it helps him hone his concentration, which is one of the reasons he is so successful (at the Yamaha launch, Zeelenberg named it as his strongest quality).

Its easy,stoner didnt do many laps in practice on the ducati cos he didnt want it to throw him through the fence so he got it to work as soon as possible then he got on the honda and thought this bike is so good compared to the last pile of .... i rode i dont need to improve it,hence no race simulations, just a thought. :sneaky2:

You need to throw out the notion that stoner was more talented then lorenzo. Jorge has won the same amount of titles with less time in GP. Lorenzo has won on inferior bikes. Stoner only won in a transitional year and on the best bike for the other title.

It doesnt matter that he could run faster laps then others at times. A championship is only won through hard work , teamwork, consistency, willpower,and luck sustained over a long period of time.

Its a war of attrition week to week. Stoner did not have the ability and strength to maintain it.

Its not just about tickin off fast laps. You have to have the mental game as well to be the most talented rider out there.

Stoners approach cost him at least 3 other titles. By the aussies logic stoner was revolutionary in his methods and unparalled in his skill. If that is the case they should be constructing the arguement as to how one with those traits failed so many times

JohnnyKnockdown

3466531364496020

You need to throw out the notion that stoner was more talented then lorenzo. Jorge has won the same amount of titles with less time in GP. Lorenzo has won on inferior bikes. Stoner only won in a transitional year and on the best bike for the other title.

It doesnt matter that he could run faster laps then others at times. A championship is only won through hard work , teamwork, consistency, willpower,and luck sustained over a long period of time.

Its a war of attrition week to week. Stoner did not have the ability and strength to maintain it.

Its not just about tickin off fast laps. You have to have the mental game as well to be the most talented rider out there.

Stoners approach cost him at least 3 other titles. By the aussies logic stoner was revolutionary in his methods and unparalled in his skill. If that is the case they should be constructing the arguement as to how one with those traits failed so many times

Click to expand...

U make some intriguing points JK. I hope people respond with some equally thought provoking replies.


I wonder if running a race simulation might have helped Stoner in the occasions he DNFed from a race. My conventional thought being perhaps learning how the race distance affected the Ducati might have been valuable to attempt an intervention for the race. Its certainly something to consider. My first thoughts are similar to what the Deal points out regarding the Ducati in particular (since Stoner spent most of his championship opportunities with them) that is, the Ducati was dangerous and 'unpredictable' (a characteristic generally accepted), and perhaps the benefit of a race simulation did not outweigh the risk of crashing and getting hurt? Certainly i think he could run race simulations on the Honda right. Except he also had to deal with an arm pump issue, in which case he my have opted to save the arm for the race.

 


Edit: to add, I would argue in favor of conducting race simulations during practices, as I have been on this thread, however, I think Casey was in a unique and particularly situation with Ducati--which could only be describe as an erratic, volatile, and fickle machine  (something that now should be abundantly accepted and common knowledge to us).

Kropotkin

3466341364476696

Name one Australian rider - with the exception of recent retirees - who could win a world title? Even Crutchlow, who I rate very highly, would stand no chance of the title on the factory Yam. I think he might win the odd race, but not the title.

Click to expand...

 


 


Name one Italian, apart from the one the Caramelo moved heaven and earth to get back on a Yamaha who could seriously win the title? 


 


The one who got the golden ticket back didn't make a result in 2 years worth a "winning 4" factory ride, as a matter of fact he left slinging insults at everybody like an Italian Tourette's machine left on high. 


 


Is he retired and complaining about the politics?


 


Case Closed your Honour


 


The evidence before the Court


 


Is incontrovertible


 


There's no need for the Jury to retire


 


In all my years of judging I've never seen before


 


A Caramelo more deserving the full penalty of the law

Andy Roo

3466641364506193

Name one Italian, apart from the one the Caramelo moved heaven and earth to get back on a Yamaha who could seriously win the title?

Click to expand...

How many Italians are there on the top 4 title-capable bikes?

Kropotkin

3466651364506385

How many Italians are there on the top 4 title-capable bikes?

Click to expand...

 


 


Sorry Krop. 


 


Now name the Italian on the top 4 bike. My sarcasm is not mentioning him was an inverse reflection of your own sarcasm.


 


 


 


Valentino HAD to get a top 4 ride, so did MM, so the pressure (rule impositions) went towards Honda, Stoner disappears  everyone is happy.  


 


People cave into politics in the workplace all the time, nearly done it myself. 

Andy Roo

3466691364507607

Sorry Krop. 
 
Now name the Italian on the top 4 bike. My sarcasm is not mentioning him was an inverse reflection of your own sarcasm.
 
 
 
Valentino HAD to get a top 4 ride, so did MM, so the pressure (rule impositions) went towards Honda, Stoner disappears  everyone is happy.  
 
People cave into politics in the workplace all the time, nearly done it myself.

Click to expand...

Who are the best 4 riders in the world?

Kropotkin

3466721364508591

Who are the best 4 riders in the world?

Click to expand...

I can only use the top 4 from last season (this is fair, you are arguing to establish its credentials as fair)


 


So


 


1. JL


2. DP


3. CS


4. AD 


 


 


The more in depth analysis counter analysis leads us to the fact that Casey is NOT on a bike this year, but Valentino is. 


 


Dovisioso you chucked in the bin as well. 


 


 


 


 


Who are the 4 best financially backed riders in the world? 

Kropotkin said:

.Who are the best 4 riders in the world?

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Nicky Hayden is one of them. I dont care who u arbitrarily say are the other 3. We both know u'll base ur answer on the riders with the best bikes, which makes this exercise kinda impossible.

Andy Roo

3466731364509020

Who are the 4 best financially backed riders in the world?

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They are the 4 best riders in the world. This is no coincidence, but you keep putting the cart before the horse.

Dovizioso better than Rossi? I think Rossi is past his prime, but he's still better than Dovizioso.

Jumkie

3466741364509207

Nicky Hayden is one of them. I dont care who u arbitrarily say are the other 3. We both know u'll base ur answer on the riders with the best bikes, which makes this exercise kinda impossible.

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Sorry, should have rephrased that: "Who are the best 4 riders in the world. Apart from Nicky Hayden, obviously."

Kropotkin

3466761364509811

Sorry, should have rephrased that: "Who are the best 4 riders in the world. Apart from Nicky Hayden, obviously."

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Haha you beat me to it Krop. I was just about to say who are the 2nd, 3rd and 4th best riders

JohnnyKnockdown

3466531364496020

You need to throw out the notion that stoner was more talented then lorenzo. Jorge has won the same amount of titles with less time in GP. Lorenzo has won on inferior bikes. Stoner only won in a transitional year and on the best bike for the other title.

It doesnt matter that he could run faster laps then others at times. A championship is only won through hard work , teamwork, consistency, willpower,and luck sustained over a long period of time.

Its a war of attrition week to week. Stoner did not have the ability and strength to maintain it.

Its not just about tickin off fast laps. You have to have the mental game as well to be the most talented rider out there.

Stoners approach cost him at least 3 other titles. By the aussies logic stoner was revolutionary in his methods and unparalled in his skill. If that is the case they should be constructing the arguement as to how one with those traits failed so many times

Click to expand...

Somebody hacked into Johnny Pantsdown's login ? It's nearly a coherent post !

JohnnyKnockdown

3466531364496020

You need to throw out the notion that stoner was more talented then lorenzo. Jorge has won the same amount of titles with less time in GP. Lorenzo has won on inferior bikes. Stoner only won in a transitional year and on the best bike for the other title.

It doesnt matter that he could run faster laps then others at times. A championship is only won through hard work , teamwork, consistency, willpower,and luck sustained over a long period of time.

Its a war of attrition week to week. Stoner did not have the ability and strength to maintain it.

Its not just about tickin off fast laps. You have to have the mental game as well to be the most talented rider out there.

Stoners approach cost him at least 3 other titles. By the aussies logic stoner was revolutionary in his methods and unparalled in his skill. If that is the case they should be constructing the arguement as to how one with those traits failed so many times

Click to expand...

I actually agree lorenzo is better than stoner, he won 2 championships to stoner's one during their time in motogp. Stoner  also had a bike which was good enough to give him a shot at the 2012 championship, and did not win it. As he said in relation to the indy crash though, "that's racing", as applied to valentino's crash in 2010. The crash at sachsenring was less along those lines, and more a tactical and strategic error I would agree, and very likely if not totally definitely would have cost him the championship anyway had he completed the season uninjured.


 


As for your other 2 championships he "should" have won, they were all  presumably while he was riding a ducati, which is all I need to say.


 


In the case of the ducati championship he did win, we get back to where all this started, that you guys can't cope with someone beating your boy, and particularly him winning 10 races in a valentino like fashion whilst doing so.

JohnnyKnockdown

3466531364496020

You need to throw out the notion that stoner was more talented then lorenzo. Jorge has won the same amount of titles with less time in GP. Lorenzo has won on inferior bikes. Stoner only won in a transitional year and on the best bike for the other title.

It doesnt matter that he could run faster laps then others at times. A championship is only won through hard work , teamwork, consistency, willpower,and luck sustained over a long period of time.

Its a war of attrition week to week. Stoner did not have the ability and strength to maintain it.

Its not just about tickin off fast laps. You have to have the mental game as well to be the most talented rider out there.

Stoners approach cost him at least 3 other titles. By the aussies logic stoner was revolutionary in his methods and unparalled in his skill. If that is the case they should be constructing the arguement as to how one with those traits failed so many times

Click to expand...

 

Easy. 2007 - 2012. Yamaha 4 titles. Ducati one. Honda one. Inferior bike myths debunked. The Honda and Ducati had advanatges alright that few riders have been able to exploit.

 

Its plain obvious Stoner does not have greater mental concentration than Lorenzo. By the same token Mamola, Gardner and Schwantz did not have greater mental concentration as Lawson and Rainey. Mamola was ....... around pulling wheelies and drifting in races, no ....... chance he would have been able to stay concentrated long enough to do any boring race sims in testing. History says level headed riders win more championships than freak talent alone.

 

I know you love the mental weakness wind up as much as the likes of Michael Scott and co. Put Schwantz, Mamola into your equation you might realise they are not strictly speaking weaker or lazy, just different. I happen to enjoy different. 20 steady Eddie's and Lorenzo's would not be as entertaining without a few oddballs Stoner and Simoncelli.

 

Using another example. Chad Reed has actually won the same number of SX championships as JS7! I dont see much debate on whos the more talented rider, its obviously JS7. Yet history says he's no better than Reed. JS7 must be plain lazy and mentally weak?

Kropotkin

3466751364509775

They are the 4 best riders in the world. This is no coincidence, but you keep putting the cart before the horse.


Dovizioso better than Rossi? I think Rossi is past his prime, but he's still better than Dovizioso.

Click to expand...

 


 


Al things being equal that is the case, if not why have a championship? 


 


They were both on factory bikes last year. 


 


Stoner was the problem because if he went to Suzuki in 2007 then it would have been a light blue bike for Rossi for those 2 years. 


 


Lets see how Dovi handles the weight of the fate of Rossi on the Duc, if he wins one race he is the better rider.