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Jerez testing.

;)


i'm as big a stoner fan as anybody but that doesn't change facts.i'm convinced that the failure to defend his title is mostly due to him not working as hard as lorenzo so you can't take nothing away from him
 
I don't think a Stoner could ever have functioned using Lorenzo's methodical approach, so one cannot blame him for being different (nervous, short-tempered, damn fast).


That is a difference of character, and it is what made him Stoner btw...
 
J4rn0
3465321364369551

Wtf, feel free to stay with boring & meticulous Jorge "mantequilla" Lorenzo then, or with the fastest underachiever on earth, Dani Pedrobot... :)


 


 


:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:


 


 


....... hilarious 
 
Andy Roo
3465191364359049

JK failed to spot the half the Stoner supporters weren't Australian.


 


American Geography being what it is - Hey I've been there three times and the following map is correct, they only begin to reshape the model at University level, around the time they start talking about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Church, most forget the map, the Santa Delusion is very traumatic.


 


I was looking for the updated map that replaces "commies" with Arab Terrorists but could't find it, mind, I didn't go past line 3 of Google images.  


 


Somewhere down in the purple where people cannibalise is Stonerland. 


 


4150493949_73cd1a01db_o.jpg


:agree: Oh, this is just sooooooooooo true :agree:
 
J4rn0
3465321364369551

Wtf, feel free to stay with boring & meticulous Jorge "mantequilla" Lorenzo then, or with the fastest underachiever on earth, Dani Pedrobot... :)


From the point of view of my particular bias, that of being an even bigger stoner fan than most, I can find agreement with all three of J4rno, jumkie and stiefel in regard to race simulations..


 


Stiefel's post was a no-brainer for me, given dani's proven poor bounceability, doing race simulations with each lap running the risk of crashing is not something dani should do either to demonstrate or determine how tough he is .


 


With jorge and stoner, I would probably go with jumkie, different strokes for different folks. I also don't think jorge's camp, fantastic though he himself is, can be assumed to be dispassionate or agenda free as opposed to everyone else in motogp, or in the human race for that matter. His camp have been running this line for a while, going back to ramon forcada 2 years ago, that jorge is more virtuous/better because he is harder working than stoner. Forcada did have the perspective of having crewed for both of them, and it was hard to take too much offence as a stoner fan because he also said if stoner worked anything like as hard as jorge no-one including jorge would get anywhere near him. 


 


This does not preclude the recent statement being self-serving, as stoner's claim for the aetiology for the arm-pump at qatar last year is quite different, ie dorna ....... up the honda bike by changing the weight leading to chatter. 


 


As far as evidence goes, it is hard to see how jorge's race simulations have hindered him in any way, and certainly easy to argue they may help his demonstrably consistent performance. I don't see that stoner's method has cost him much though, and certainly not any championships. He  didn't lose the 2012 championship because he finished 3rd at qatar, he lost because he crashed in practice at indy, and if he hadn't done that would have likely lost because he crashed in the second last corner at sachsenring, neither  very likely to be related to insufficient  race simulations. I think what has been said about his latter years at ducati is correct, he was always chasing and not always achieving a set-up, and I think he was more inclined towards race simulations in 2007  when finding a set-up was perhaps less problematic.


 


If jorge goes on to win further championships as seems likely, I think his method can be argued to be better validated than stoner's. In the interim, as others have said it is probably reasonable to look at what those who have had great success in the past have done. I actually don't know what doohan did, we didn't get great coverage in Australia then, but I don't recall rossi doing race simulations to the extent jorge does.
 
michaelm
3465551364392439

From the point of view of my particular bias, that of being an even bigger stoner fan than most, I can find agreement with all three of J4rno, jumkie and stiefel in regard to race simulations..
 
Stiefel's post was a no-brainer for me, given dani's proven poor bounceability, doing race simulations with each lap running the risk of crashing is not something dani should do either to demonstrate or determine how tough he is .
 
With jorge and stoner, I would probably go with jumkie, different strokes for different folks. I also don't think jorge's camp, fantastic though he himself is, can be assumed to be dispassionate or agenda free as opposed to everyone else in motogp, or in the human race for that matter. His camp have been running this line for a while, going back to ramon forcada 2 years ago, that jorge is more virtuous/better because he is harder working than stoner. Forcada did have the perspective of having crewed for both of them, and it was hard to take too much offence as a stoner fan because he also said if stoner worked anything like as hard as jorge no-one including jorge would get anywhere near him. 
 
This does not preclude the recent statement being self-serving, as stoner's claim for the aetiology for the arm-pump at qatar last year is quite different, ie dorna ....... up the honda bike by changing the weight leading to chatter. 
 
As far as evidence goes, it is hard to see how jorge's race simulations have hindered him in any way, and certainly easy to argue they may help his demonstrably consistent performance. I don't see that stoner's method has cost him much though, and certainly not any championships. He  didn't lose the 2012 championship because he finished 3rd at qatar, he lost because he crashed in practice at indy, and if he hadn't done that would have likely lost because he crashed in the second last corner at sachsenring, neither  very likely to be related to insufficient  race simulations. I think what has been said about his latter years at ducati is correct, he was always chasing and not always achieving a set-up, and I think he was more inclined towards race simulations in 2007  when finding a set-up was perhaps less problematic.
 
If jorge goes on to win further championships as seems likely, I think his method can be argued to be better validated than stoner's. In the interim, as others have said it is probably reasonable to look at what those who have had great success in the past have done. I actually don't know what doohan did, we didn't get great coverage in Australia then, but I don't recall rossi doing race simulations to the extent jorge does.
Agree with much of this, with one minor exception. Stoner never needed to do long runs because he knew very quickly what was wrong with the bike. However, at Sepang, and at Jerez, he knew that 4kg had been added to the bike (due to Honda's duplicity, I might add, in getting Tsubouchi to "forget" that Ducati had voted against the weight increase to 160kg), and that the tires would be changing. He could had done a longer run at Sepang, for example, to test how the added weight affected his fitness, and whether it caused arm pump. He did not do so, and suffered at Qatar, and the first four or five rounds.
 
Kropotkin
3465581364394174

Agree with much of this, with one minor exception. Stoner never needed to do long runs because he knew very quickly what was wrong with the bike. However, at Sepang, and at Jerez, he knew that 4kg had been added to the bike (due to Honda's duplicity, I might add, in getting Tsubouchi to "forget" that Ducati had voted against the weight increase to 160kg), and that the tires would be changing. He could had done a longer run at Sepang, for example, to test how the added weight affected his fitness, and whether it caused arm pump. He did not do so, and suffered at Qatar, and the first four or five rounds.


 


Of course. Of course. Casey should have predicted his arm pump and adjusted accordingly. I definitely value the idea of race sims but testing is for the bike, the rider has to go train. If you can combine the two, great. I don't think asking whether you can go out for 20+ laps 'to see if I'm fit enough' is a good question to ask of your employer.


 


"and that the tires would be changing"


Why not ask why would you bother running a race sim on tyres that aren't even representative? All this talk of wasting money, private tests, etc....and last year they ran an official test sessions on 'unofficial' tyres.


 


Brilliant.
 
Kropotkin
3465581364394174

Agree with much of this, with one minor exception. Stoner never needed to do long runs because he knew very quickly what was wrong with the bike. However, at Sepang, and at Jerez, he knew that 4kg had been added to the bike (due to Honda's duplicity, I might add, in getting Tsubouchi to "forget" that Ducati had voted against the weight increase to 160kg), and that the tires would be changing. He could had done a longer run at Sepang, for example, to test how the added weight affected his fitness, and whether it caused arm pump. He did not do so, and suffered at Qatar, and the first four or five rounds.


You are obviously better informed than I am, but I still find it extraordinary that honda misrepresented the results of the vote, when all dorna had to do was ask the other msma members if the vote was unanimous, even aside from the dissenting member being able to tell dorna this of their own volition. I still wonder if ducati changed their mind after the vote, or decided/agreed that they had been strong-armed into unanimity.


 


In any case however evil honda are in general (as I have said I don't think yamaha can be absolved of responsibility for the actions of the msma) honda may have taken the view that even having the vote to change the weight limit in the first place after 12 months of development and longer than that after the rules were promulgated was unreasonable.
 
Well according to the tin foil hat chaos theory it was a simple innocent misunderstanding not a conspiracy. The obvious explanation should be the answer. But no this is Stoners employer so Honda must of been evil, knowing Ducati had voted against them yet still sneaking off to Caramelo in the hope they might not notice. Surely Jarvis can confirm thats how it went. Theres no funny business in motogp.


But perhaps Ducati changed their mind, the original vote for 2012 rules being held in early 2011 while Ducati still ran the relatively lighter carbon chassis, while the second slightly less official Carmelo vote coming when they had grown a little fat and lazy after the switch to alloy. New chassis + new weight limit + new tires = pure coincidence, caramelo good, Honda bad.


Caramelos press statement would be "I am calm. We went to war to liberate motogp not for oil goose eggs. Of course we found hondas WMD's we wouldnt lie. People in government always tell the truth. Honda = Saddam the syth lord, Caramelo is master Yoda the funny little bald guy. Rossi is Luke Skywalker which makes Uccio his beloved sister. Darth Stoner was a two headed skippy syth but luckily we banished him back to a swamp someplace in the orion belt. Good always defeats evil."


Now someone pass the scotchland brew I need a drink.
 
birdman
3466131364448518

Well according to the tin foil hat chaos theory it was a simple innocent misunderstanding not a conspiracy. The obvious explanation should be the answer. But no this is Stoners employer so Honda must of been evil, knowing Ducati had voted against them yet still sneaking off to Caramelo in the hope they might not notice. Surely Jarvis can confirm thats how it went. Theres no funny business in motogp.

But perhaps Ducati changed their mind, the original vote for 2012 rules being held in early 2011 while Ducati still ran the relatively lighter carbon chassis, while the second slightly less official Carmelo vote coming when they had grown a little fat and lazy after the switch to alloy. New chassis + new weight limit + new tires = pure coincidence, caramelo good, Honda bad.

Caramelos press statement would be "I am calm. We went to war to liberate motogp not for oil goose eggs. Of course we found hondas WMD's we wouldnt lie. People in government always tell the truth. Honda = Saddam the syth lord, Caramelo is master Yoda the funny little bald guy. Rossi is Luke Skywalker which makes Uccio his beloved sister. Darth Stoner was a two headed skippy syth but luckily we banished him back to a swamp someplace in the orion belt. Good always defeats evil."

Now someone pass the scotchland brew I need a drink.
You Stoner fans are as bad as Rossi's lot.
 
michaelm
3466091364445485

You are obviously better informed than I am, but I still find it extraordinary that honda misrepresented the results of the vote, when all dorna had to do was ask the other msma members if the vote was unanimous, even aside from the dissenting member being able to tell dorna this of their own volition. I still wonder if ducati changed their mind after the vote, or decided/agreed that they had been strong-armed into unanimity.
 
In any case however evil honda are in general (as I have said I don't think yamaha can be absolved of resposibility for the actions of the msma) honda may have taken the view that even having the vote to change the weight limit in the first place after 12 months of development and longer than that after the rules were promulgated was unreasonable.
As I understand it, what happened was this. The MSMA had a meeting, in which Ducati voted in favor of the weight increase. Tsubouchi told Dorna that the proposal had been rejected unanimously, so Dorna and the FIM went ahead and printed the minutes of the GPC, without the weight increase. Someone in Ducati - probably high up - then phoned Dorna and said "Hey, where's the weight increase, we voted in favor, it wasn't unanimously rejected." Ezpeleta phoned Nakamoto, told him he'd been a very naughty boy, and that they would let him off with a slap across the wrist, and compromise by going to 160KG in two stages, 157 in 2012, 160 in 2013.

Why did Yamaha go along with the weight increase? Because they are the junior partner to Honda, and they will support the decision once they have been heard. In exchange, they expect Honda to take their proposals very seriously.

Why did Honda expect to get away with it? Because they regard themselves as the senior partner in the MSMA, and that therefore, the other members will go along with what they suggest. They attempt to operate as a wise father figure, taking everyone's best interest into account, but ultimately making the final decision themselves, if need be. Ducati believe all of the MSMA members are on an equal footing, and couldn't believe that Honda would simply bypass them like this. So they put their foot down.
 
Actually Krop, can you seriously say that Dorna as the sports governing body treated riders equally or didn't favour certain rides and certain nationalities based on the simple quantum of where the money was coming from? 


 


Stoner fans dash themselves against the blades of the financial windmill because Casey was bad for baseline business. 


 


To be honest why are we even talking about Stoner, he retired. Jerez testing, never Stoner's track?


 


It will belong to Mark very very soon.....


 


He is Spanish and makes money smile 
 
 


I do not recall any other rider in any era doing race simulations like Lorenzo does.


 


Perhaps Lorenzo needs to do them so that is why those around him rank them so high up in the must do preparation.  I always hear this Lorenzo works so hard, Lorenzo is metronomic.  I see all the riders working hard.  Stoner worked just as hard as Lorenzo I have no doubt.  Just because he did not do what Lorenzo did does not mean he worked any less hard.


 


Lorenzo runs more traction control than any of the top riders.  Perhaps he needs to understand how the traction control will work through the whole race distance.  Other riders ride more with the throttle and therefore they are able to adapt their use of it as the bike changes through out a race.


 


If I was to back anyone I would back the rider who over a 5-6 year period beat every other rider across every stat when he says that race simulations are not necessary.


 


And on the Lorenzo being metronomic.  Well is Lorenzo metronomic or is the set up of the electronics metronomic?  I tend to think it is the electronics that are the real hero.  Either way Lorenzo bores the absolute .... out of me on a bike.  In line and all traction control.  Give me Stoner, Pedrosa, Rossi, and just about any other rider any day.
 
Kropotkin
3466211364470090

As I understand it, what happened was this. The MSMA had a meeting, in which Ducati voted in favor of the weight increase. Tsubouchi told Dorna that the proposal had been rejected unanimously, so Dorna and the FIM went ahead and printed the minutes of the GPC, without the weight increase. Someone in Ducati - probably high up - then phoned Dorna and said "Hey, where's the weight increase, we voted in favor, it wasn't unanimously rejected." Ezpeleta phoned Nakamoto, told him he'd been a very naughty boy, and that they would let him off with a slap across the wrist, and compromise by going to 160KG in two stages, 157 in 2012, 160 in 2013.


Why did Yamaha go along with the weight increase? Because they are the junior partner to Honda, and they will support the decision once they have been heard. In exchange, they expect Honda to take their proposals very seriously.


Why did Honda expect to get away with it? Because they regard themselves as the senior partner in the MSMA, and that therefore, the other members will go along with what they suggest. They attempt to operate as a wise father figure, taking everyone's best interest into account, but ultimately making the final decision themselves, if need be. Ducati believe all of the MSMA members are on an equal footing, and couldn't believe that Honda would simply bypass them like this. So they put their foot down.


Vatted Mimed
 
Andy Roo
3466221364470524

Actually Krop, can you seriously say that Dorna as the sports governing body treated riders equally or didn't favour certain rides and certain nationalities based on the simple quantum of where the money was coming from?
They definitely favored some riders over others in certain aspects cough 2008 cough. And they certainly favor certain nationalities over others. Otherwise, what the hell would Bryan Staring be doing in MotoGP? MotoGP saw a long string of Brits kept in the series to appease the BBC, and Doni Tata Pradita and Sucipto are both riders in Moto2 for similar reasons. In the past, and I mean 5-10 years ago, Dorna favored Spanish riders, but right now, they simply have too many of them. Look at the quality of riders who don't have a ride, former winners like Sergio Gadea, Joan Olive, even Toni Elias found it hard to get a ride. Because Dorna won't subsidize them. Dorna is spending money on Australians, Malaysians, Germans, Indonesians, Americans, wherever the TV coverage is important.

The reason there are so many Spaniards in MotoGP right now is down to Dorna alright, but it's down to what Dorna did with the CEV ten years ago. There is a structure in place in Spain bringing kids up through the ranks from the age of 5. That system is being replicated elsewhere, there are a few fast Dutch kids coming, because the Dutch federation instituted something similar. And the CEV right now is full of foreign riders - including a fast young Aussie, Linc Gilding - because they know that's where you go to get noticed, and a shot at Grand Prix.
 

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