Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
No.
And get over yourself as the set-upon clear thinker.
You characterise the weight change to continue the narrative of 'Big Bad Honda'.
How about this characterisation: Rules that had been on the table for a year were ratified early November 2011. 153kg. A mere five weeks later out comes Caramello with a 160kg proposal. Ostensibly to help his CRTs (and no doubt Duc). Honda and Yamaha quite reasonably object. Caramello shows unanimous clause. Honda and Yamaha acquiesce to a 157kg ruling for 2012 and 160kg for 2013.
Much more boring than your 'get away with it' scenario, with less scope to show off your 'insider' knowledge of the machinations. It was just another example of the rules getting mucked about with in the usual Dorna style.
And get over yourself as the set-upon clear thinker.
You characterise the weight change to continue the narrative of 'Big Bad Honda'.
How about this characterisation: Rules that had been on the table for a year were ratified early November 2011. 153kg. A mere five weeks later out comes Caramello with a 160kg proposal. Ostensibly to help his CRTs (and no doubt Duc). Honda and Yamaha quite reasonably object. Caramello shows unanimous clause. Honda and Yamaha acquiesce to a 157kg ruling for 2012 and 160kg for 2013.
Much more boring than your 'get away with it' scenario, with less scope to show off your 'insider' knowledge of the machinations. It was just another example of the rules getting mucked about with in the usual Dorna style.
Jumkie
As I said earlier in the thread, I agree with you.
One issue though is whether doing race simulations would have helped stoner in the latter ducati years, or in 2010 anyway, since he was in no condition to undertake race simulations for most of 2009.
As I recall his crashes in 2010 were early in races, and often according to his own account when he backed it off when in the lead. He was well aware of this by late 2010 when he started winning races, so I presume going flat out early in the races and continuing to do so throughout the race was the only way the bike had a winning chance; he didn't crash late in races at a time when he might have had more information from doing race simulations, and I can only assume they had no way of addressing the early race problems other than going so slowly while the tyres became operational that it would leave him off the podium.
Carlo Pernat's view more or less agrees with my obviously biased view, that Stoner rode the bike the only way it could be ridden rather than his riding method reflecting deficiencies in his racecraft; I think this applies independently of whether or not he had good racecraft in general.
As I said earlier in the thread, I agree with you.
One issue though is whether doing race simulations would have helped stoner in the latter ducati years, or in 2010 anyway, since he was in no condition to undertake race simulations for most of 2009.
As I recall his crashes in 2010 were early in races, and often according to his own account when he backed it off when in the lead. He was well aware of this by late 2010 when he started winning races, so I presume going flat out early in the races and continuing to do so throughout the race was the only way the bike had a winning chance; he didn't crash late in races at a time when he might have had more information from doing race simulations, and I can only assume they had no way of addressing the early race problems other than going so slowly while the tyres became operational that it would leave him off the podium.
Carlo Pernat's view more or less agrees with my obviously biased view, that Stoner rode the bike the only way it could be ridden rather than his riding method reflecting deficiencies in his racecraft; I think this applies independently of whether or not he had good racecraft in general.
Jumkie
Where do you get stuck on and banging on about Stoner from? I made 2 posts the first one never mentioned or even made a hint of Stoner. The second one mentioned Stoner after others did. Hardly "bang on". Why is it less relevant to discuss what Stoner did to achieve success and why something that only works for Stoner when in reality it is really only Lorenzo doing these long race sims and through out history race sims are not common practice. I would suggest Lorenzo is the unique one.
And then you praise this crap below.
JohnnyKnockdown
Lorenzo won on inferior bikes. Are you ....... serious? Have a look at the number of championship Yamaha has won during this period of time being discussed. Lorenzo won on the BEST bike only. How anyone can anyone suggest the Ducati or the Honda were the best bike when Stoner won championships is plain delusional. If they were the best bikes then why did his team mate not win on them considering Stoners mental weakness and flawed approach to race weekends?
Mentally weak? Seriously? Still playing this card?
Stoners approach cost him 3 other championships? Which ones?
Where do you get stuck on and banging on about Stoner from? I made 2 posts the first one never mentioned or even made a hint of Stoner. The second one mentioned Stoner after others did. Hardly "bang on". Why is it less relevant to discuss what Stoner did to achieve success and why something that only works for Stoner when in reality it is really only Lorenzo doing these long race sims and through out history race sims are not common practice. I would suggest Lorenzo is the unique one.
And then you praise this crap below.
JohnnyKnockdown
Lorenzo won on inferior bikes. Are you ....... serious? Have a look at the number of championship Yamaha has won during this period of time being discussed. Lorenzo won on the BEST bike only. How anyone can anyone suggest the Ducati or the Honda were the best bike when Stoner won championships is plain delusional. If they were the best bikes then why did his team mate not win on them considering Stoners mental weakness and flawed approach to race weekends?
Mentally weak? Seriously? Still playing this card?
Stoners approach cost him 3 other championships? Which ones?
michaelm
To win a championship you need many things - A very good bike. A very good team. Very good funding. A top-class R&D effort throughout the year. No fuckups. Good weather at the tracks you excel at, bad weather at the tracks you aren't so good at. Good health. Luck (although the harder you work, the luckier you can get). And then there is the other major influence - talent.
The top riders all agree that Stoner is one of the most talented to ever turn a wheel, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Lorenzo may not have the innate 'feel' for a motorcycle that makes Stoner so special, but he makes up for it by working his little cotton socks off. By completing lap after lap in a smooth, unfussed style that doesn't make for many mistakes. And he learns from his few mistakes. His first season it seemed he was shooting for the moon - literally - but he worked hard and learned how to stay on, then he learned how to get the best out of the tools available (whether they were the best tools or not, it didn't matter - he made the most of them). He looked at his team-mate and knew there was more available to him if he became better at getting the most from the bike, so he did.
So does Lorenzo's approach make him a better rider? It makes him a team-owners' delight - less broken bikes, less time off with injury, more points, better exposure for sponsors. It makes him a better championship contender for two of those same reasons. He is focused and determined. Whether that makes him a little less exciting to watch is, to me, irrelevant. He is getting the best out of what he's given and if what he's given is good enough, he will get enough points to win the championship.
If he and Stoner were given identical bikes, I think Stoner would have the edge over race distance. Because he takes risks and backs himself to make the impossible pass that Lorenzo would weigh up as being too risky. That isn't to say Lorenzo is a ..... or that he rides with reserve, but he rides to win points. You don't get points if you fall off - the old adage, to finish first, you must first finish. Whereas Stoner takes someone being in front of him as a personal affront.
Pedrosa is different again - extremely talented, but has, in the past, seemed to shy away from a fight. Given a fairing-banging opportunity, he will back out and try a tactical pass. Again, not a ....., just not comfortable in a Simoncelli-esque battle of nerves. Seeing what Stoner did coming in to the team where Pedrosa was the prime talent made him sit up and realise he was taking it easier than he should have, and the last half of the season showed - he became faster, more confident, more aggressive. In previous seasons he could have pointed to injury and technical flaws as the reason he didn't manage to take the title, but when he had a new team-mate arrive - never having ridden the bike - and blow him into the weeds, it was a wake-up call.
If he had had that wake-up call a few years ago, I think he would be a more popular and more successful rider than he is - whereas he seems to be ever-the-bridesmaid. Last year, if it wasn't for the handling woes of the Honda in the first half of the season, I think he would have taken the title, or at least he and Stoner would have taken any points on offer and left Lorenzo in the desert.
This year it is his to lose - he has the equipment, he has the motivation, he has the self-belief. I think Lorenzo will do what he always does - reel off fast lap after fast lap, but the excitement is coming from Dani, Vale and Marc.
To win a championship you need many things - A very good bike. A very good team. Very good funding. A top-class R&D effort throughout the year. No fuckups. Good weather at the tracks you excel at, bad weather at the tracks you aren't so good at. Good health. Luck (although the harder you work, the luckier you can get). And then there is the other major influence - talent.
The top riders all agree that Stoner is one of the most talented to ever turn a wheel, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Lorenzo may not have the innate 'feel' for a motorcycle that makes Stoner so special, but he makes up for it by working his little cotton socks off. By completing lap after lap in a smooth, unfussed style that doesn't make for many mistakes. And he learns from his few mistakes. His first season it seemed he was shooting for the moon - literally - but he worked hard and learned how to stay on, then he learned how to get the best out of the tools available (whether they were the best tools or not, it didn't matter - he made the most of them). He looked at his team-mate and knew there was more available to him if he became better at getting the most from the bike, so he did.
So does Lorenzo's approach make him a better rider? It makes him a team-owners' delight - less broken bikes, less time off with injury, more points, better exposure for sponsors. It makes him a better championship contender for two of those same reasons. He is focused and determined. Whether that makes him a little less exciting to watch is, to me, irrelevant. He is getting the best out of what he's given and if what he's given is good enough, he will get enough points to win the championship.
If he and Stoner were given identical bikes, I think Stoner would have the edge over race distance. Because he takes risks and backs himself to make the impossible pass that Lorenzo would weigh up as being too risky. That isn't to say Lorenzo is a ..... or that he rides with reserve, but he rides to win points. You don't get points if you fall off - the old adage, to finish first, you must first finish. Whereas Stoner takes someone being in front of him as a personal affront.
Pedrosa is different again - extremely talented, but has, in the past, seemed to shy away from a fight. Given a fairing-banging opportunity, he will back out and try a tactical pass. Again, not a ....., just not comfortable in a Simoncelli-esque battle of nerves. Seeing what Stoner did coming in to the team where Pedrosa was the prime talent made him sit up and realise he was taking it easier than he should have, and the last half of the season showed - he became faster, more confident, more aggressive. In previous seasons he could have pointed to injury and technical flaws as the reason he didn't manage to take the title, but when he had a new team-mate arrive - never having ridden the bike - and blow him into the weeds, it was a wake-up call.
If he had had that wake-up call a few years ago, I think he would be a more popular and more successful rider than he is - whereas he seems to be ever-the-bridesmaid. Last year, if it wasn't for the handling woes of the Honda in the first half of the season, I think he would have taken the title, or at least he and Stoner would have taken any points on offer and left Lorenzo in the desert.
This year it is his to lose - he has the equipment, he has the motivation, he has the self-belief. I think Lorenzo will do what he always does - reel off fast lap after fast lap, but the excitement is coming from Dani, Vale and Marc.
Zootalaws
One thing that is guaranteed to annoy Wilco Zeelenberg is commenting on how easy it looks for Lorenzo. He really has to work hard to ride that smoothly, and to make it look so easy. Thinking about it, an injury which would disrupt this - shoulder, knee, something like that - could be much more harmful to Lorenzo's career than to someone with a much looser style.
Dr No
How confident am I that this is the way it happened? I know this to be true, because parties to the discussions have told me so.
Put it another way, I am firmly convinced that Ezpeleta had nothing to do with Rossi returning to Yamaha, but I have no direct evidence. Of the weight increase, I know for a fact this is how it went. This is not conviction, this is knowledge.
And I couldn't give a .... about showing off my 'insider' knowledge. All of the 'insiders' I know are dicks, with one honorable exception. I have never been an 'insider' anywhere.
The 153kg was the weight increase already agreed much earlier. At Valencia, the MSMA informed the GPC that the MSMA had unanimously rejected the proposed increase to 160kg, and so the already agreed increase to 153kg was accepted (the bikes at Brno that year were already 153kg, or at least the Honda was). Later, when Ducati grassed Tsubouchi up, Dorna imposed the 4kg extra.
How confident am I that this is the way it happened? I know this to be true, because parties to the discussions have told me so.
Put it another way, I am firmly convinced that Ezpeleta had nothing to do with Rossi returning to Yamaha, but I have no direct evidence. Of the weight increase, I know for a fact this is how it went. This is not conviction, this is knowledge.
And I couldn't give a .... about showing off my 'insider' knowledge. All of the 'insiders' I know are dicks, with one honorable exception. I have never been an 'insider' anywhere.
Kropotkin
I never said it was easy
I have a smooth, unfussed style - when I am waiting at the lights/grid/barrier. The rest of the time I am about as unfussed as a Victorian bustle on bum-pinching week.
I never said it was easy
I have a smooth, unfussed style - when I am waiting at the lights/grid/barrier. The rest of the time I am about as unfussed as a Victorian bustle on bum-pinching week.
Andy Roo
Thanks. I've been doing this for years... just nobody usually wants to <strike>listen</strike> pay.
I've always found it strange, the motivations attributed to racers, the condemnation of riders that are 2 metres a lap slower than the guy in front. There are so many factors that can contribute - if you are within a second or two of the guy at the front, you are a player. There are very few in MotoGP that aren't anything other than ....... awesome riders - but getting the complete package together at the right time and place is the difference between a champ and a chump.
Thanks. I've been doing this for years... just nobody usually wants to <strike>listen</strike> pay.
I've always found it strange, the motivations attributed to racers, the condemnation of riders that are 2 metres a lap slower than the guy in front. There are so many factors that can contribute - if you are within a second or two of the guy at the front, you are a player. There are very few in MotoGP that aren't anything other than ....... awesome riders - but getting the complete package together at the right time and place is the difference between a champ and a chump.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
Umm. You may want to look at the weights you posted. Get it right. 153 to 160 and back to 157. It's dull. It's a non story until you put a Machiavellian spin on it, deriding Honda and excusing late rule changes.
And it's only slightly revealing that you state you know this all to to be true because 'parties to the discussion' tell you so. But this is no appeal to your 'insider' knowledge...no. Then bagging those parties shortly after...not exactly confidence inspiring.
I hope you're had as much to drink as I have when you posted, because you're all over the place here.
(an aside, this place is where I feel it's appropriate to have it out like this. Your site is a boon to Motogp and bike racing, and the utmost respect goes to your willingness to answer anonymous posters. Cheers)
And it's only slightly revealing that you state you know this all to to be true because 'parties to the discussion' tell you so. But this is no appeal to your 'insider' knowledge...no. Then bagging those parties shortly after...not exactly confidence inspiring.
I hope you're had as much to drink as I have when you posted, because you're all over the place here.
(an aside, this place is where I feel it's appropriate to have it out like this. Your site is a boon to Motogp and bike racing, and the utmost respect goes to your willingness to answer anonymous posters. Cheers)
Dr No
The 153 kg was the original proposal, back when the 1000cc rules were first agreed in 2009/2010. The Valencia GP Commission in November 2011 merely ratified that original decision. However, Dorna and IRTA had proposed 160kg back in the middle of the year, to help the CRTs and Ducati. That is what the MSMA said they had rejected. When Ducati told Ezpeleta that the MSMA decision had not been unanimous, and that therefore the proposed increase to 160kg had been wrongly rejected, Ezpeleta told the MSMA that he was prepared to offer them a compromise, by going to 160kg in 2 steps, 157 in '12 and 160 in '13. That was to let them know that he was going to stand by the rules, but be reasonable about it.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
Which is pretty much what I said. But with less villainy involved. The 160 was floated earlier, yes, but never officially and never put to an MSMA vote until after the rules were ratified in Nov 11.
But forget all this he said/she said crap...
The crux of my issue is late rule changes. Forget Rossi/Yam or whether Casey got arm pump from 4kg...you want to bring CRTs in? You want to let Duc add weight due to their ...... new frame? fine. but get it right.
But forget all this he said/she said crap...
The crux of my issue is late rule changes. Forget Rossi/Yam or whether Casey got arm pump from 4kg...you want to bring CRTs in? You want to let Duc add weight due to their ...... new frame? fine. but get it right.
Dr No
Honda assumed that the manufacturers would go along unquestioningly with the weight changes, because they rule the MSMA like fiefdom. They got stung when Ducati had no interest in playing ball. Other than that, I agree with much of what you are saying.
