Jerez testing.

Kropotkin

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The 153 kg was the original proposal, back when the 1000cc rules were first agreed in 2009/2010. The Valencia GP Commission in November 2011 merely ratified that original decision. However, Dorna and IRTA had proposed 160kg back in the middle of the year, to help the CRTs and Ducati. That is what the MSMA said they had rejected. When Ducati told Ezpeleta that the MSMA decision had not been unanimous, and that therefore the proposed increase to 160kg had been wrongly rejected, Ezpeleta told the MSMA that he was prepared to offer them a compromise, by going to 160kg in 2 steps, 157 in '12 and 160 in '13. That was to let them know that he was going to stand by the rules, but be reasonable about it.

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I take your point, and believe your other post that dorna had nothing to do with rossi going back to yamaha, however much it may have suited them. The fact remains he was the best available rider apart from anything else, and it is enormously to both yamaha's and valentino's advantage that he be a yamaha rider in his retirement, a la eddie lawson despite his other flirtations.


 


My view is coloured by my wish for casey stoner to have won the 2012 world championship, with which I think the late weight change interfered, but in this particular instance however evil honda are otherwise, and destructive to the sport their pursuit of abstruse technical ends may be, I don't think you can change the rules a year after they have been promulgated, or even 6 months after that time, unless you are running an equalisation formula up front as wsbk was/is. I agree with honda that it was unprofessional/farcical to do so, dorna needed either to wait for the next year or find other ways of helping the crts and/or ducati which didn't involve discarding a year's development for others. I am sure stoner was peripheral to all this, but can also understand if he didn't see it that way. 


 


(EDIT I like Dr No also appreciate your passion for the sport, and your willingness  to debate all and sundry  on here concerning things you can't really debate on your own site, where you try so admirably hard to be reasonable).

michaelm

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I take your point, and I agree with your other post that dorna had nothing to do with rossi going back to yamaha, however much it may have suited them. The fact remains he was the best available rider apart from anything else, and it is enormously to both yamaha's and valentino's advantage that he be a yamaha rider in his retirement, a la eddie lawson despite his other flirtations.
 
My view is coloured by my wish for casey stoner to have won the 2012 world championship, with which I think the late weight change interfered, but in this particular instance however evil honda are otherwise, and destructive to the sport their pursuit of abstruse technical ends may be, I don't think you can change the rules a year after they have been promulgated, or even 6 months after that time, unless you are running an equalisation formula up front as wsbk was/is. I agree with honda that it was unprofessional/farcical to do so, they needed either to wait for the next year or find other ways of help[ing the crts and/or ducati which didn't involve discarding a year's development. I am sure stoner was peripheral to all this, but can also understand if he didn't see it that way.

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I agree that the weight change interfered with Stoner's title defense. I think the new tires introduced from Estoril interfered as well. But Honda knew in Japan (I think) that Ducati had voted in favor of the weight change. They could have prepared, but they did not, they lied. Hard to feel sorry for them.

Kropotkin

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I agree that the weight change interfered with Stoner's title defense. I think the new tires introduced from Estoril interfered as well. But Honda knew in Japan (I think) that Ducati had voted in favor of the weight change. They could have prepared, but they did not, they lied. Hard to feel sorry for them.

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In my opinion yamaha have a well balanced design that was not affected so much by the weight change, the design quite possibly  still at least partly due to valentino's collaboration with furusawa, and also quite likely reflective of them being smarter than honda in general and able to match or better them with less expenditure of resources.


 


I think honda are more obsessed with engineering tour de forces, and build bikes like modern military aircraft where the avionics overcome all ills, and hence their thing was so finely balanced that they needed to build a new bike which I think they did with all possible haste, and probably at fairly great expense, because they were so pissed off. If stoner hadn't had his early midlife crisis or whatever he probably still had a chance at the championship if he had been steadier, although the Indy crash may just have been one of those things which would have happened anyway even if he had been leading the championship at the time.

michaelm

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In my opinion yamaha have a well balanced design that was not affected so much by the weight change, the design quite possibly  still at least partly due to valentino's collaboration with furusawa, and also quite likely reflective of them being smarter than honda in general and able to match or better them with less expenditure of resources.
 
I think honda are more obssessed with engineering tour de forces, and build bikes like modern military aircraft where the avionics overcome all ills, and hence their thing was so finely balanced that they needed to build a new bike which I think they did with all possible haste, and probably at fairly great expense, because they were so pissed off. If stoner hadn't had his early midlife crisis or whatever he probably still had a chance at the championship if he had been steadier, although the Indy crash may just have been one of those things which would have happened anyway even if he had been leading the championship at the time.

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I think you're right, but I also believe that the Yamaha was never close to the 153kg limit anyway. HRC love an engineering challenge, and excel at achieving the targets set, something which is deeply, mind-bogglingly impressive. Just look at the fact that the Hondas had a shitload of horsepower, no fuel usage problems, and no problems with reliability under the 21 liter/6 engines regime. Hell, Stoner got through 2011 on just 5 engines, and took a title to boot. Yamaha simply can't compete (let alone Ducati), and so they were less affected by the weight change, as they barely had to add any weight at all.

michaelm

3467641364568138

In my opinion yamaha have a well balanced design that was not affected so much by the weight change, the design quite possibly  still at least partly due to valentino's collaboration with furusawa, and also quite likely reflective of them being smarter than honda in general and able to match or better them with less expenditure of resources.

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Yamaha have three decades of 'Deltabox' perimeter alloy beam frame design behind them, an eye-wateringly compact engine with a very, very low COG.


 


That allows them a lot of latitude in engine placement and balance, especially in how low they can suspend the engine.


 


When they contracted Cobas in the early 80s to develop them a new chassis, they ushered in a new era in chassis rigidity and 'tuneability' - they have the data from more than 500 races to call on in making chassis decisions and they have an ethic of making handling easy, rather than bleeding edge. They have also made a few hundred thousand (million?) road bikes, sno-mobiles and watercraft - that also use Deltabox construction.


 


With a bike that handles 'easy', it allows the rider so much more time to find a setup that will work for the conditions - completely differently to the Ducati, where the rider (according to Stoner and Hayden) is always on the verge of binning it and spends half the lap saving the front end. Having a bike that handles easy makes for a more relaxed ride, allowing the rider to concentrate on his technique, rather than living on the edge Ot allows them to focus on stability, which means the rider can focus on his brake and acceleration markers - which allows someone like Lorenzo to knock out such astonishingly close times, lap after lap.


 


I believe that ethos has persisted through all of Yamaha's retail products as well - I have owned RG500's, RG400s, TZ/TZR/RZ250s, 350s, 400s, 500s and ridden a few different Suzuki and Yamaha 250 and 500-class GP bikes (albeit old ones... well past their best) and the Yams always felt 'comfy' - at least compared to the opposition. You feel good riding, you will ride better.


 


Honda, on the other hand, reinvent the wheel every time they go to R&D - they are always looking for an edge, a new technology, a new way of doing things - and they can afford to, where Yamaha can't. You need to sell a shitload of pianos, violins, guitars and drum sets to pay for a GP bike.


 


 


(innit bootiful?)


 

Kropotkin

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Who are the best 4 riders in the world?

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Casey Stoner


 


Jorge Lorenzo


 


Valentino Rossi


 


Dani Pedrosa

Kropotkin

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One thing that is guaranteed to annoy Wilco Zeelenberg is commenting on how easy it looks for Lorenzo. 

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Mat Oxley says it so much better than I can (BTW, he's a personal hero of mine for decades, as much as the GP riders - I tried to emulate Mat, technical writing style, riding style, team management style - but never made it to his level at any of them. There's still time!).


 

<p style="color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;Crutchlow looked good at Jerez. He still has the burning aggression that makes him such a joy to watch, but he’s learned to smooth things out, which is what you need to make the Yamaha go absolutely as fast as it will go. That’s what Lorenzo does, which is why mantequilla (Spanish for butter, as in buttery smooth) is his MotoGP maxim.
<p style="color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;Learning to ride more smoothly sounds easy to do, but it isn’t. All hell is breaking loose when you’re riding a race ‘bike at ten tenths. To see through the chaos of speed, horsepower, g-forces and everything else while staying serene would be entirely impossible for you, me and pretty much everyone else. Crutchlow has been working on finding that ability to smooth out the madness since he came to MotoGP in 2011, and it looks like he’s just about there.
<p style="color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px; 
<p style="color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/race/motogp-race/crutchlow-on-top-as-motogp-testing-ends/

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povol

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Casey Stoner


 


Jorge Lorenzo


 


Valentino Rossi


 


Dani Pedrosa

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He said riders, not ex-riders. If we can use that criteria, there's a bunch of guys I can think of that would have put paid to the likes of Pedro and Lorenzo.

povol

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Casey Stoner
 
Jorge Lorenzo
 
Valentino Rossi
 
Dani Pedrosa

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Casey Stoner is a car driver, not a motorcycle racer any more. In case you hadn't noticed.

Zootalaws

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He said riders, not ex-riders. If we can use that criteria, there's a bunch of guys I can think of that would have put paid to the likes of Pedro and Lorenzo.

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I don't think there is. I think even Hailwood would have struggled.

Kropotkin

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I don't think there is. I think even Hailwood would have struggled.

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I think that Mick Doohan, Wayne Rainey, Levin Schwantz, having their time now, would be very competitive. Fearlessness, hard work, 'warrior' spirit - I am not denigrating Lorenzo or Pedrosa, but those riders were special.

Kropotkin

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Casey Stoner is a car driver, not a motorcycle racer any more. In case you hadn't noticed.

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Who are the best 4 riders in the world?


 


 Im sure he still qualifies as a rider.

Kropotkin

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I think you're right, but I also believe that the Yamaha was never close to the 153kg limit anyway. HRC love an engineering challenge, and excel at achieving the targets set, something which is deeply, mind-bogglingly impressive. Just look at the fact that the Hondas had a shitload of horsepower, no fuel usage problems, and no problems with reliability under the 21 liter/6 engines regime. Hell, Stoner got through 2011 on just 5 engines, and took a title to boot. Yamaha simply can't compete (let alone Ducati), and so they were less affected by the weight change, as they barely had to add any weight at all.

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Why, in the 990 era they ran much lower weight limits, 145kg was it not. Or is it an additonal 10kg of electronics since then?


To me it appears simple. After testing it was clear Honda were going to run away with 2012. They were miles in front. And after a few complaints regarding boring racing in the latter stages of 2011, I'm sure Caramelo was shitting bricks at the prospect of more. Roll out new marshmellow tires and increased weight and guess what, no complaints about boring runaway skippy boy races. Mission accomplished. Eazy dont give a .... about CRT, they dont fill the coffers. Ducati never came through but no problem, he was calm by then. Skippy would have done better to learn to play poker and not go around flashing Aces all the time, but alas, the kid lacks political awareness.


Did Ezy hear any whimpering noises from poor old Ducati about 5 engines and 20L this year or is it since MM joined Honda and Rossi Yamaha is it more like duCatiRT who? He doesnt have to worry about boring races anymore, Ducati thrown on the scrapheap.

povol

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Who are the best 4 riders in the world?

 

 Im sure he still qualifies as a rider.

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He is not eligible for a factory ride. He was offered one, but turned it down. Therefore he is irrelevant to the discussion.

Phone .......

birdman

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Why, in the 990 era they ran much lower weight limits, 145kg was it not. Or is it an additonal 10kg of electronics since then?


To me it appears simple. After testing it was clear Honda were going to run away with 2012. They were miles in front. And after a few complaints regarding boring racing in the latter stages of 2011, I'm sure Caramelo was shitting bricks at the prospect of more. Roll out new marshmellow tires and increased weight and guess what, no complaints about boring runaway skippy boy races. Mission accomplished. Eazy dont give a .... about CRT, they dont fill the coffers. Ducati never came through but no problem, he was calm by then. Skippy would have done better to learn to play poker and not go around flashing Aces all the time, but alas, the kid lacks political awareness.


Did Ezy hear any whimpering noises from poor old Ducati about 5 engines and 20L this year or is it since MM joined Honda and Rossi Yamaha is it more like duCatiRT who? He doesnt have to worry about boring races anymore, Ducati thrown on the scrapheap.

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145 kg.... and to think in the 'primitive' 1980s they used to run 115kg 500s.

Dr No

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145 kg.... and to think in the 'primitive' 1980s they used to run 115kg 500s.

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But we have to believe (because we've been told) that WSBK was infringing on motogp territory, not the other way around. 


 


I thin Casey is eligible as a rider for the discussion. He will hold his position as current #3 in championship until the next (2013) championship is decided. 


 


Everyone gets 12 months grace after retirement. The example is the No:1 plate for WSBK - it belongs to Max all year, he is the incumbent. 

Andy Roo

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But we have to believe (because we've been told) that WSBK was infringing on motogp territory, not the other way around. 
 
I thin Casey is eligible as a rider for the discussion. He will hold his position as current #3 in championship until the next (2013) championship is decided. 
 
Everyone gets 12 months grace after retirement. The example is the No:1 plate for WSBK - it belongs to Max all year, he is the incumbent.

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The argument started about there being 3 Spaniards and 1 Italian on the only 4 bikes capable of winning a championship. There could have been an Australian on one of those bikes, but he took his ball and went home. Therefore, Stoner's skill - which is beyond question, and I would argue he is probably the most talented rider ever to swing a leg over a racing motorcycle - is irrelevant.

Why are there 3 Spaniards and 1 Italian on the 4 best bikes on the grid? Because they are the 4 best active riders in the world at the moment. Are they also the 4 riders with the strongest political and financial backing? They certainly are. Because they are the 4 best active riders in the world at the moment.

Zootalaws

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Yamaha have three decades of 'Deltabox' perimeter alloy beam frame design behind them, an eye-wateringly compact engine with a very, very low COG

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Zootalaws

3467681364570635

 

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Not just the COG, it also has a very corner friendly centroid ( longitudinally )   , and very minimal <span style="color:#ff0000;<span style="font-size:24px;VSG all of which means it turns with a minimum of fuss.

Kropotkin

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they are the 4 best active riders in the world at the moment. Are they also the 4 riders with the strongest political and financial backing? They certainly are. Because they are the 4 best active riders in the world at the moment.

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I agree with this. The top 4 are where they should be.


It leads me to a question though.


Are the next 4 best riders on the 4 satellite Honda/Yamaha?


And why have they got those rides?