Joined Jun 2006
2K Posts | 20+
south wales UK
BINGO
Bottom line was that the contact was down to Rossi. End of story.
He drastically changed his line and speed, and the exact sequence of the subsequent contact is fairly irrelevant, and may have not been volitional by either rider. I don't think MM was doing anything except turning in normally for the corner.
The argument against MM's behaviour concerns his overall intentions. All his individual moves were legal racing moves. Rossi's move which led to the collision was not.
That said, if he had been racing previous opponents like Gibernau and Stoner, or a current one like Lorenzo , contact probably would not have occurred as their instinctive reaction would likely be to avoid it.
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Joined Oct 2015
84 Posts | 32+
Canada
Again it doesn't matter if MM hit VR or VR kicked him. VR created all this when he said what he said at pre race presser. How did you Rossi disciples expect MM to react? What if any other rider said to VR what VR said to MM? How do you think VR would react? He coulda just raced and probably at worse end up 4th but would be starting probably 2nd row at worse in Valencia.
Joined Jun 2006
2K Posts | 20+
south wales UK
i agree michaelm you know me
, that's what I said in my first post that rossi caused the actual situation so im wont be fighting his corner because of that.all I am saying is that I believe marquez fall wasn't due to a kick but his own error.
Yes, we heard you the first three times. If you have some well-reasoned, fact-based argument to support your "belief" then I would be very interested to read it.
IMO Rossi did what he felt he had to, some of those passes MM was making were borderline, sure MM had the skill to make them, but he definitely put Rossi at risk, which would be fine if he was passing him to pass him and pull away, but its clear to me MM was getting closer than necessary on the passes then letting Rossi go back by. In that situation I'm pretty sure any one of us would have run him wide or done something similar. Rossi even tried to warn him off with a wave and MM just kept right on messing with him.
As for the crash itself, MM had the option to use the rear brake and cut back under Rossi, whether he didnt see it in the heat of the moment or thought Rossi would turn in earlier is up for debate. He made a similar move on Rossi earlier in the race and ran VR right out to the strips. I'm a fan of both riders, I think MM's style and aggression are a breath of fresh air in GP, but I have to side with Rossi on this. There was more pavement outside of Rossi, but MM chose to dive towards him instead, they were going slow enough he had time to straighten up more, but clearly decided to force the issue.
My take on the crash is this, MM tried to lean in harder on Rossi to avoid going into the grass, as he did so, he pushed his inside bar forward to lean the bike in father, when he did that, his hand hit either Rossi's foot or his peg, causing his front brake to lock. To me that seems much more believable than Rossi's alleged "kick"
If Rossi were to kick him, the motion would have had to be upward, then backwards. the replay shows neither, Rossi's knee rotates outward to balance against MM's weight leaning on him. Think about it, if a rider is about to low side, what do they do? kick that outside leg out in an attempt to balance the bike. Thats a motion outwards by rotating the hip, to me is looks like Rossi tried to do so but his foot was trapped by MM.
anybody who sees it differently please explain to me how exactly my view of it is wrong.
As for the crash itself, MM had the option to use the rear brake and cut back under Rossi, whether he didnt see it in the heat of the moment or thought Rossi would turn in earlier is up for debate. He made a similar move on Rossi earlier in the race and ran VR right out to the strips. I'm a fan of both riders, I think MM's style and aggression are a breath of fresh air in GP, but I have to side with Rossi on this. There was more pavement outside of Rossi, but MM chose to dive towards him instead, they were going slow enough he had time to straighten up more, but clearly decided to force the issue.
My take on the crash is this, MM tried to lean in harder on Rossi to avoid going into the grass, as he did so, he pushed his inside bar forward to lean the bike in father, when he did that, his hand hit either Rossi's foot or his peg, causing his front brake to lock. To me that seems much more believable than Rossi's alleged "kick"
If Rossi were to kick him, the motion would have had to be upward, then backwards. the replay shows neither, Rossi's knee rotates outward to balance against MM's weight leaning on him. Think about it, if a rider is about to low side, what do they do? kick that outside leg out in an attempt to balance the bike. Thats a motion outwards by rotating the hip, to me is looks like Rossi tried to do so but his foot was trapped by MM.
anybody who sees it differently please explain to me how exactly my view of it is wrong.
i agree michaelm you know me
all I am saying is that I believe marquez fall wasn't due to a kick but his own error.
There is always the possibility that the impact was to MM's fingers on the underside of the bar
To MM it would feel like a kick
To Honda, data would replicate it as a sudden impact with the brake lever
To interpretation ............ another story
See previous posts from me and others.
Whether Rossi deliberately kicked MM is very much open to discussion. I don't think he did myself.
That an illegal move by Rossi is responsible for the collision as the stewards found is not.
I understand that Rossi ran him wide, but MM had options to avoid the crash, instead he rode right into Rossi. I believe some of the blame is on him for not
1. trail braking or using the rear brake to square up on Rossi, if I can do it on an MX bike on a corner half as big with half the traction, one of the worlds best can do it on pavement.
2. running out wider, there was room for him to go around, its not like Rossi was on the rumble strips
If someone is shot I believe it is uncommon for the argument that the victim could have ducked to be successful as a defense.
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Which (and as has been said multiple times) what MM was trying to do but VR kept riding him wide, even admitting 'nearly stopping' which took the option away
One rider was happy to continue to race, a second rider was not at that state interested in racing
You pick which is in which role
if we're going to use a shooting as a metaphor, I'd say it was self defense. MM was threatening Rossi's safety so he defended himself. If you look at the entire race, MM was clearly the aggressor
More than one of those "legal" moves involved contact with VR, others where he cut across Rossi's nose entering a corner were closer than most "safe" passes. Rossi's move, while it did end up with MM on the ground, was done at half the speed of those close calls MM pulled. I would say MM's collection of moves were much more dangerous and likely to end in injury.
The rule on this is very much open to interpretation, but any move Race Direction feels compromises the safety of any rider unnecessarily is considered illegal. With that in mind, I'd argue that MM compromised VR's safety much more than VR compromised MM
Of course he is talking sense to you, he speaks in yellow
Here goes for you.
Check teh video ............... thousands have done
During the race there is NO contact between VR and MM until the incident
VR - admits that his intent was to ride MM wide
VR - moved off his line and ADMITS to slowing to a near stop
VR - admits that he did this so as to confront MM about what VR perceives to be MM's untoward actions
Now, that is 3 (count them) 3 admissions that he was NOT racing any longer as he was intent on riding a rider to the edge of the circuit to slow him down. He then, rather than continued racing decided to slow further and THIS has a significant impact as to culpability
Plus, may I just say that the Race Direction and FIM found Rossi guilty.
Yamaha via Lin Jarvis stated that they accept the FIM verdicts
Rossi himself has not appealed the finding, just the penalty
Get the drift here guys ................... Rossi f*cked up and was penalised
sure there has been much discussion, but as new information comes out, such as Yamaha's Press release in reply to Repsol and better slow mo angles the discussion changes. Although most on here have already absolved MM of all blame. it just seems to me most people on this forum are hardcore MotoGP fans with obvious bias towards their favourites. I'm more of a casual observer, and as a fan of both riders i thought why not offer my view. Having said that, I still believe MM is more in the wrong than VR
