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Gossip: Honda RC213V's engine is a 90° L

Andy Roo said:
Barry who once was on the show "punkin Chunkin" and Zoot who designed the little scissor type thing used to squeeze teabags prior to pulling them out of the cup.
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Dunno why you brought me into this - I fully accepted that Krop knew WTF he was talking about.



I tend to go with the guy that is giving a first-hand recounting rather than Barry and his VSG-inflected engineeringisms.



I'm an Elec.Eng, not a Mech.Eng. All I know about mech is what I have picked up in the last 30 years and from working on my own bikes and cars.



I may have invented stuff, but it is code hidden away and buried inside some plastic-encased piece of discrete hardware. About as exciting as a squeezed -out teabag to look at and with a lot less visual appeal.
 
Ironic then isn't it, that you tried arguing the toss with me when it came to the development of IC engines when i've worked in engine development isnt it?
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Bsnell said:
Ironic then isn't it, that you tried arguing the toss with me when it came to the development of IC engines when i've worked in engine development isnt it?
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I saw that thread. All he asked you to do was back up your statement and you got your .... in a tangle and started abusing him.



I thought his questions (and answers) were spot-on.



Unless I'm mistaken (and I'm not, just went back and read it again), he didn't "[argue] the toss with me when it came to the development of IC engines"



What he did do was question your blanket statement that there were better engines out there than GP 4-strokes and asked you to give an example. I also am interested in an answer to that, but didn't want to incur your wrath over questioning your obvious engineering superiority. But then I'm just a backyard hack with a sub-standard education so I doubt I can grasp the complexities.



AFAIK, you never came back with an answer, just abuse.
 
Mental Anarchist said:
But I thought your family was loaded and you didn't need to work?
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That's me, isn't it? My family are loaded. I don't need to work. The problem is, both of those statements are unrelated.



My family is loaded. Problem is, I am not
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I don't need to work. Problem is, if I want light, heat, internet and happy sweaty times with the wife, I better get my arse out that door and earning!
<
 
I'm just throwing this out there, but I wonder if the V-angle of Honda's engine might be pursuant to a manufacturers agreement.



We all know they are trying to reduce costs, and MotoGP seems to be leaning on the F1 model with each passing rules change. In F1, they specify a 90-degree V-angle to stop development wars, not just the power density of the engine, but also the effect of the V-angle on chassis rigidity and handling.



Who's to say that the MSMA didn't sign a side agreement, specifying 90-degrees for all V-angles. Following the stressed engine analogy from F1, maybe Honda agreed to 90-degrees (mandatory "DNA" for Ducati), if Ducati were willing to toss monocoque development? Despite Rossi's departure it does appear that Ducati will stick with the aluminum perimeter frame via a partnership with FTR (IIRC). Perhaps this is the reason Preziosi is leaving?



Just thinking aloud.
 
mylexicon said:
I'm just throwing this out there, but I wonder if the V-angle of Honda's engine might be pursuant to a manufacturers agreement.



We all know they are trying to reduce costs, and MotoGP seems to be leaning on the F1 model with each passing rules change. In F1, they specify a 90-degree V-angle to stop development wars, not just the power density of the engine, but also the effect of the V-angle on chassis rigidity and handling.



Who's to say that the MSMA didn't sign a side agreement, specifying 90-degrees for all V-angles. Following the stressed engine analogy from F1, maybe Honda agreed to 90-degrees (mandatory "DNA" for Ducati), if Ducati were willing to toss monocoque development? Despite Rossi's departure it does appear that Ducati will stick with the aluminum perimeter frame via a partnership with FTR (IIRC). Perhaps this is the reason Preziosi is leaving?



Just thinking aloud.
Click to expand...
 
mylexicon said:
I'm just throwing this out there, but I wonder if the V-angle of Honda's engine might be pursuant to a manufacturers agreement.



We all know they are trying to reduce costs, and MotoGP seems to be leaning on the F1 model with each passing rules change. In F1, they specify a 90-degree V-angle to stop development wars, not just the power density of the engine, but also the effect of the V-angle on chassis rigidity and handling.



Who's to say that the MSMA didn't sign a side agreement, specifying 90-degrees for all V-angles. Following the stressed engine analogy from F1, maybe Honda agreed to 90-degrees (mandatory "DNA" for Ducati), if Ducati were willing to toss monocoque development? Despite Rossi's departure it does appear that Ducati will stick with the aluminum perimeter frame via a partnership with FTR (IIRC). Perhaps this is the reason Preziosi is leaving?



Just thinking aloud.
Click to expand...



Nice speculation. I mean that.
 
Good to see you two playing nice
<




But I think Lex's post is more tin-foil hat than thinking cap
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(in the nicest way possible.)
 
mylexicon said:
I'm just throwing this out there, but I wonder if the V-angle of Honda's engine might be pursuant to a manufacturers agreement.



We all know they are trying to reduce costs, and MotoGP seems to be leaning on the F1 model with each passing rules change. In F1, they specify a 90-degree V-angle to stop development wars, not just the power density of the engine, but also the effect of the V-angle on chassis rigidity and handling.



Who's to say that the MSMA didn't sign a side agreement, specifying 90-degrees for all V-angles. Following the stressed engine analogy from F1, maybe Honda agreed to 90-degrees (mandatory "DNA" for Ducati), if Ducati were willing to toss monocoque development? Despite Rossi's departure it does appear that Ducati will stick with the aluminum perimeter frame via a partnership with FTR (IIRC). Perhaps this is the reason Preziosi is leaving?



Just thinking aloud.
Click to expand...



You can post thoughts like that all the time, made me think.
 
mylexicon said:
I'm just throwing this out there, but I wonder if the V-angle of Honda's engine might be pursuant to a manufacturers agreement.



We all know they are trying to reduce costs, and MotoGP seems to be leaning on the F1 model with each passing rules change. In F1, they specify a 90-degree V-angle to stop development wars, not just the power density of the engine, but also the effect of the V-angle on chassis rigidity and handling.



Who's to say that the MSMA didn't sign a side agreement, specifying 90-degrees for all V-angles. Following the stressed engine analogy from F1, maybe Honda agreed to 90-degrees (mandatory "DNA" for Ducati), if Ducati were willing to toss monocoque development? Despite Rossi's departure it does appear that Ducati will stick with the aluminum perimeter frame via a partnership with FTR (IIRC). Perhaps this is the reason Preziosi is leaving?



Just thinking aloud.
Click to expand...





Only hole in that argument is that Honda has no interest whatsoever in reducing costs. The MSMA (aka Honda) has been actively holding off the F1 model, which is what Dorna and IRTA would like to pursue. As a result, an agreement only to pursue certain engine angles makes no sense at all, especially in motorcycle racing, where the shape of an engine is a key element of the total vehicle dynamics package. The car in an engine is just dead weight, so engine angle is irrelevant, and can be a cost-cutting item, in a bike, it can provide a significant advantage.



As for Ducati's chassis: it's currently being built by FTR to design specs from Ducati. Suter are being handed the whole package (engine layout and chassis), given to them by the Germans. Given Suter's record in MotoGP, this does not bode well for them for the future. Especially now that Phillip Morris' patience is starting to run out.
 
thedeal said:
You can post thoughts like that all the time, made me think.
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I think 90 degree Vs are more traditional than narrow angle Vs for honda anyway, and I suspect they don't want to have a narrow angle V engine with a balance shaft in a production bike even as the basis for a WSBK contender.
 
I remember Preziosi saying something like this back in 2011: "Honda are not disclosing what their V angle is, why should we talk about it..." in response to a question by a journalist. In hindsight, it seems that he knew something.



Preziosi is primarily an engine engineer, and his mistake has been that he always tried to oversimplify the problem of the frame. He is likely to be 'invited' to collaborate with some engineer with a different bias from now on, and share with him the overall responsibility for the Ducati MotoGP project which has been his personal privilege and burden so far.
 
mylexicon said:
I'm just throwing this out there, but I wonder if the V-angle of Honda's engine might be pursuant to a manufacturers agreement.



We all know they are trying to reduce costs, and MotoGP seems to be leaning on the F1 model with each passing rules change. In F1, they specify a 90-degree V-angle to stop development wars, not just the power density of the engine, but also the effect of the V-angle on chassis rigidity and handling.



Who's to say that the MSMA didn't sign a side agreement, specifying 90-degrees for all V-angles. Following the stressed engine analogy from F1, maybe Honda agreed to 90-degrees (mandatory "DNA" for Ducati), if Ducati were willing to toss monocoque development? Despite Rossi's departure it does appear that Ducati will stick with the aluminum perimeter frame via a partnership with FTR (IIRC). Perhaps this is the reason Preziosi is leaving?



Just thinking aloud.
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Is it in the secret double naught vault sitting along side the WSBK rev limit document.
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If I buy it and don't bin it then it will be collectable. Do you have any spare kidneys? Mine are both running at capacity at present.



I have said that I am getting a Tuono once the ...... leg is gone. a V4 Honda however
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. I could become one of those kidney bandits...









Hey Krop, this looks like Honda are getting a contingency plan in place to leave motogp as per their threat and go WSBK racing.



Any chance this is the "Stoner Superbike" ?
 
Andy Roo said:
If I buy it and don't bin it then it will be collectable. Do you have any spare kidneys? Mine are both running at capacity at present.



I have said that I am getting a Tuono once the ...... leg is gone. a V4 Honda however
<
. I could become one of those kidney bandits...









Hey Krop, this looks like Honda are getting a contingency plan in place to leave motogp as per their threat and go WSBK racing.



Any chance this is the "Stoner Superbike" ?
Click to expand...



The idea, I think, is for them to build two bikes: 1. the roadgoing bike that they will race in WSBK. 2. The production racer version they will sell to teams to go racing with. The WSBK machine was originally the escape plan, but I think they see an opportunity to raise their brand profile with it, and make Honda exciting again. With the spec ECU software being called off, they will stick around.



Of course, in 2016, there will be 15 or so of those production RC213Vs in the hands of private teams. So if Dorna then decided to introduce the spec software, the grid will already be filled with decent bikes. Honda can walk, but they won't be missed.



Oh, and Stoner won't race WSBK either, especially if Dorna are running it. He's done on two wheels.
 

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