<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 8 2008, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry that was my silly answer. My actually point is that although Rossi's overtake success rate may be far better than Toni's, the number of passes attempted is very significant because as you can see the difference in actual risk to competitors has been negligable since 2005 when Elias started in motogp.
Yeah, you can't really say much about being an overall hazard with the per-pass rate. You can make a judgement about skill in overtaking, but not really about being an overall hazard. What matters at the end of the day, in terms of being hazardous, is how many people you knock off per-race or over time. A million safe passes doesn't lessen the damage caused by a few hazardous ones. Of course, a lot comes down to close calls as well, and it's hard to really come to any conclusions when you're dealing with events that only occur a handful of times over the course of years. When, how, and how often riders go down may mean more about whether they're hazardous or not than how many riders they've take down over the years. Otherwise the numbers get so distorted from ".... happens" stuff and "damn he was lucky not to wipe someone else" events that there's just not enough left to say one way or the other.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 8 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not denying that other riders felt that ELias' move was a bit marginal, but equally some riders would not have been impressed with the Jerez 05 pass. There are two sides to the tough racing debate, and we've talked that one to death in other topics in the past.
a bit marginal, for .... sake tom, they complained didn't they ? and why bring the jerez 05 into it, whats that got to do with it, only 1 rider complained there not loads like with scuds antics.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 8 2008, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, you can't really say much about being an overall hazard with the per-pass rate. You can make a judgement about skill in overtaking, but not really about being an overall hazard. What matters at the end of the day, in terms of being hazardous, is how many people you knock off per-race or over time. A million safe passes doesn't lessen the damage caused by a few hazardous ones. Of course, a lot comes down to close calls as well, and it's hard to really come to any conclusions when you're dealing with events that only occur a handful of times over the course of years. When, how, and how often riders go down may mean more about whether they're hazardous or not than how many riders they've take down over the years. Otherwise the numbers get so distorted from ".... happens" stuff and "damn he was lucky not to wipe someone else" events that there's just not enough left to say one way or the other.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 8 2008, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry that was my silly answer. My actually point is that although Rossi's overtake success rate may be far better than Toni's, the number of passes attempted is very significant because as you can see the difference in actual risk to competitors has been negligable since 2005 when Elias started in motogp.
If you reckon that Scud's risk to competitors has been negligable with 2 take-downs in 3.5 seasons, then why did you bring up Rossi's 4 take-downs in 7.5 seasons in the top flight?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jul 8 2008, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you reckon that Scud's risk to competitors has been negligable with 2 take-downs in 3.5 seasons, then why did you bring up Rossi's 4 take-downs in 7.5 seasons in the top flight?
(using your take-down numbers)
I wasn't saying toni's are negligable, but the difference between he and rossi is negligable in this area.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 8 2008, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I wasn't saying toni's are negligable, but the difference between he and rossi is negligable in this area.
no you said " marginal"
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 8 2008, 07:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Toni's pass on Rossi was mraginal. To use your own reasoning, race control took no action so it must have been acceptbale.
exactly
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 8 2008, 07:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Finally you are on board, the difference in hazard between these tow rider is like i originally said, negligable.
but again for the 3rd time now you miss the point !.
you were digging at rossi saying he complained about scud, i said so did a lot of others. i think you will find it was others that complained first and rossi just backed them up be agreeing. you implied rossi was a whiner when he also does hard moves, im saying thats not the case.
why dont you read back a little to see how this debate started before your spin, then you might understand.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 8 2008, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>but again for the 3rd time now you miss the point !.
you were digging at rossi saying he complained about scud, i said so did a lot of others. i think you will find it was others that complained first and rossi just backed them up be agreeing. you implied rossi was a whiner when he also does hard moves, im saying thats not the case.
why dont you read back a little to see how this debate started before your spin, then you might understand.
I wasn't "digging" at Rossi, i said that racers tend to complain when they lose. Even nice guys like Hayden do it. So there is no need for you to be on the defensive again. And if you could find me some quotes where other riders complained about Elias' move on Rossi before he expressed his displeasure (I can't imagine too many of them actually saw it first hand).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 8 2008, 07:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I wasn't "digging" at Rossi, i said that racers tend to complain when they lose. Even nice guys like Hayden do it. So there is no need for you to be on the defensive again. And if you could find me some quotes where other riders complained about Elias' move on Rossi before he expressed his displeasure (I can't imagine too many of them actually saw it first hand).
it was debated on this forum at the time.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 8 2008, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Toni has the best record in that department. Certainly not Randy!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 8 2008, 08:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>by you recent posts tom im starting to think you prefer a nice safe precession rather than a good close race.. stick to your F1 mate.
motogp is the bigger passion of mine, despite the people you have to mix with to share it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 8 2008, 08:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>motogp is the bigger passion of mine, despite the people you have to mix with to share it.
oooh im really hurt.
i said the above comment because twice you have bought up the jerez 05 incident which was one of the closest most exciting races in years, but you always bring it up for negative reasons imo. i have a sneaky feeling if it were any other rider than rossi involved you would look at that in a different light
