German MotoGP Race Thread: Spoilers!

[Keshav]

Casey's mistake was forced by Pedro, who was super fast in his last lap. Stoner must have prepared his move beforehand, but it went wrong because Pedro increased his speed and so he crashed trying to shorten the gap for the pass on a target that was now too fast. There was no more margin.



Pernat today said that if Stoner had had a more sensible attitude in his career, he would now have a string of titles a la Valentino.

But would it still be Stoner then? That uncompromising attitude is what gives him his speed, probably.

Being sensible, that's what I loved about Kevin Schwantz.

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Uhh... oh no it wasn't.

 

[cliche guevara]

in a way this is like doohan vs criville all over.

fast australian (albeit this time its more unbelievable exit rather than corner entry) vs a spanish little guy that gets the better of him if he can fool the fast aussie.

granted i feel this current battle is far more balanced. hope i'm not reading too much into sachsenring since its always been a great track for dani,not just the past 3 years. but i'm really hoping for this season to develop into an epic 3 way battle for the championship

 

[Bunyip]

Great ride by Pedrosa. First close battle he has won. In hindsight Cs should have taken the points but then again, in the past, when he has been competitive he has always had his measure. If there really is a newer tougher DP then CS will have to alter his thinking.CS whinge about marshalls- would seem to be unfair according to Krop, ie. fast corner, no place to linger, but then again , memories of last years rossi take away will have been close to the surface. Talpas one person crusade to malign CS at every opportunity continues. Remember your comments from late last year? Forgotten already? Thought so little Thyridopteryx ephemeraeformis.



Interesting thing, Casey still seems confident about the rest of the year, so perhaps the Honda has improved in the chatter department. Points very close for the front 3, so the rest of the championship could be very exciting.



When does Jumkie return from Brokeback mountain?



Arab, leave Barry alone. There is no direct evidence of strange animal acts by Barry. If you want to, have a go at me, as I quite regularly insert 24" of myself into farm animals.

And..................I always wear protection.

 

[Keshav]

Stoner continues to bite the hand that feeds him. Traits of a spoiled ....... !

Oh please... you can do better than that.

 

[Geonerd]

Casey's ambition outweighted his talent.

Perhaps, but at least he chose a safe place to overstep.

 

[tphil]

So did Casey run out of talent, like Rossi did last year ?

 

[michaelm]

So did Casey run out of talent, like Rossi did last year ?

His talent was obviously exceeded in that corner, but not in a situation where any talent deficiency was likely to impact another rider contending for the championship when he realistically wasn't, nor where his talent was as likely to be exceeded when he formed his ambition, imo. He also unlike valentino last year was in a situation where he did need to win the race in that corner if he was to win the race, there being only 2 further corners in the race, and it was for a feasible pass in one of those corners that he was attempting to set up.

 

[michaelm]

Stoner continues to bite the hand that feeds him.

He has made it abundantly clear he is fed up, roger.

 

[inam22]

His talent was obviously exceeded in that corner, but not in a situation where any talent deficiency was likely to impact another rider contending for the championship when he realistically wasn't, nor where his talent was as likely to be exceeded when he formed his ambition, imo. He also unlike valentino last year was in a situation where he did need to win the race in that corner if he was to win the race, there being only 2 further corners in the race, and it was for a feasible pass in one of those corners that he was attempting to set up.

Pure BS , when you crash you just crash you don't plan or pick a safe place to crash so you don't take any body else down with you. It's just pure luck that he hasn't taken down anybody else with his crashes since Sete Gibernau take down.

 

[michaelm]

Pure BS

If you say so it must be so obviously.



Just for my interest, in which particulars was I wrong? Was valentino in realistic contention for the world championship last year? Was his attemped pass from so far back a feasible one in the conditions? The TV commentators on the coverage of jerez 2011 I was watching called that he was going to crash at the very start of his move. Did he not have a further large number of laps let alone corners in which he had an opportunity to overtake stoner (who was prepared to let him go anyway), rather than 2 corners? Did he not in fact take out stoner, who you may not have noticed didn't take out pedrosa?



Stoner wasn't even attempting a pass on pedrosa in that corner, and I wait to be instructed as to the geometry of a rider sliding sideways into a rider well in front of him. If all you have are theoretical consequences of his actions you haven't got much, in reality none of his crashes in the last 6 years have impacted another rider, and few if any have involved passing attempts that I can recall, and passes are the circumstance where both rider volition and judgement are most involved and the likelihood of taking out another rider is highest.



No-one thinks that valentino deliberately took out stoner at jerez, it was a racing incident as stoner said, but valentino himself has said even recently that it was an injudicious move. It actually wasn't from quite as far back as I recalled (perhaps inflamed by the TV commentators) when I replayed it recently, but it was still unnecessary at that particular time and place and with a high chance of not coming off.

 

[inam22]

Where did i mention Rossi in my post

, i don't know why you have to bring Rossi to defend CS in your every post. All i have said in my post that when some body crashes they don't plan to crash and if they don't take anybody else down with them then it's just pure luck.

 

[michaelm]

Where did i mention Rossi in my post

, i don't know why you have to bring Rossi to defend CS in your every post. All i have said in my post that when some body crashes they don't plan to crash and if they don't take anybody else down with them then it's just pure luck.

My post which you criticised was in reply to a post likening stoner's crash at sachsenring to the jerez crash last year, which has also been a theme for several other posters on this thread, and not something I initiated.



You can choose when you make a pass. My point was that stoner has not attempted many injudicious passes, which valentino obviously hasn't even more so over a much longer period of time, and the safety record of both riders, stoner's over 6 years, and valentino's over a much longer period is imo somewhat related to skill rather than luck.

 

[inam22]

You can choose when you make a pass. My point was that stoner has not attempted many injudicious passes, which valentino obviously hasn't even more so over a much longer period of time, and the safety record of both riders, stoner's over 6 years, and valentino's over a much longer period is imo somewhat related to skill rather than luck.

Sure skill is the main factor for both riders for not crashing but my point is when you crash and you don't take anybody else down with you that's just pure luck and there is no skill involve in crashing.

 

[bluegreen]

Some of you are really getting it wrong.



Let me break it down.



Rossi is awesome because when he has the right machine under him (M1, RC211V or a Duck in the water) and he sees a chance to make a pass when the race is on the line in almost impossible conditions he goes for it. He has balls. Sometimes it worked out (Catalunya 09), sometimes he ...... it up (Gibbers), sometimes he ...... it up and it still worked out (Laguna Corkscrew), but with the race on the line, his blood ran hot and he just went for it.



Casey did the exact same thing this weekend. It didn't work out, but the guy went for it and I respect that. He wanted to win. He wasn't thinking about the Championship, the points, or his wife's sweet .... He was thinking about the win. That's cool with me.





Sometimes I feel like I'm reading Gulliver's Travels on here...

 

[Mental Anarchist]

Sure skill is the main factor for both riders for not crashing but my point is when you crash and you don't take anybody else down with you that's just pure luck and there is no skill involve in crashing.

Crashing is definitely a skill. Or at least crashing and not getting hurt is a skill. You watch the great riders. When they crash they rarely get hurt because there reflexes and ability to think in that millisecond allows them to minimise damage. Just watch Stoners crash. As soon as he goes down look at him pull his hand out of danger and then get flat so as to slide properly. What about Rossi? In all the years of racing and all the falls he has had, 1 bad injury. That is not luck. That is skill in my opinion.

 

[Goatboy]

Why was Stoner so surprised by the reaction of the marshals? "I saw them helping other riders back onto the track in that corner.  There was nothing wrong with my bike, and even the handlebars were still straight.  I was hoping to at least score some points, but they wouldn't give me a hand. The engine had turned off automatically - another great feature necessitated by Dorna's engine limits per rider - and they told me they couldn't help me.  They help different riders on different tracks.  And it's not the first time it happened here; in 2006 they prevented me from racing, saying I had a cranial trauma, but that wasn't true. I just had some pain, and the CAT scan revealed nothing, but they wouldn't let me race." 



http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201207087521/Stoner-angry-with-the-marshals.html#ixzz20CQLIGZw



Tell me that's not a persecution complex!

 

[chopperman]

My post which you criticised was in reply to a post likening stoner's crash at sachsenring to the jerez crash last year, which has also been a theme for several other posters on this thread, and not something I initiated.



You can choose when you make a pass. My point was that stoner has not attempted many injudicious passes, which valentino obviously hasn't even more so over a much longer period of time, and the safety record of both riders, stoner's over 6 years, and valentino's over a much longer period is imo somewhat related to skill rather than luck.

At the end of the day both crashes were mistakes, if not they would not have crashed ! Rossi tried to pass from too far back, probably encouraged by the amount of successful passes just prior to the crash taking out stoner.

Stoner trying to pass his team mate with a huge lean angle on an off camber bumpy track notorious for unforced errors. Both riders ambitions out weight their talents at those particular moments because both ended up in the gravel. Stoner was not totally blameless at jerez, after all he did leave the door open inviting a pass. It was just a pity like stoner rossi lost the front but due to a wet track in rossi's case.

It was lucky Stoner didn't take out pedro because pedro was the faster rider so stoner did not actually get alongside unlike the rossi crash.

 

[chopperman]

Crashing is definitely a skill. Or at least crashing and not getting hurt is a skill. You watch the great riders. When they crash they rarely get hurt because there reflexes and ability to think in that millisecond allows them to minimise damage. Just watch Stoners crash. As soon as he goes down look at him pull his hand out of danger and then get flat so as to slide properly. What about Rossi? In all the years of racing and all the falls he has had, 1 bad injury. That is not luck. That is skill in my opinion.

What a load of bollocks ! Sure in a low-side you learn to tuck your limbs in but normally when you crash your just along for the ride.

 

[michaelm]

Some of you are really getting it wrong.



Let me break it down.



Rossi is awesome because when he has the right machine under him (M1, RC211V or a Duck in the water) and he sees a chance to make a pass when the race is on the line in almost impossible conditions he goes for it. He has balls. Sometimes it worked out (Catalunya 09), sometimes he ...... it up (Gibbers), sometimes he ...... it up and it still worked out (Laguna Corkscrew), but with the race on the line, his blood ran hot and he just went for it.



Casey did the exact same thing this weekend. It didn't work out, but the guy went for it and I respect that. He wanted to win. He wasn't thinking about the Championship, the points, or his wife's sweet .... He was thinking about the win. That's cool with me.





Sometimes I feel like I'm reading Gulliver's Travels on here...

Absolutely correct, including about Laguna Seca 2008.



As MA says there is possibly some skill after you crash if not a lot, but there is certainly a choice about when you push hard risking a crash, and imo anyway factors which operate include the proximity of other riders, position on the track, speed, race situation and more arguably championship situation. For the bautista thing last week if it had been an entirely deliberate considered move then he was quite culpable it being the first corner with other riders necessarily in close proximity and him having no chance of making that corner braking where he did, and if people can't see that almost anyone would be upset after such an occurrence, as lorenzo was last week and stoner was last year, particularly if in close contention for the championship, while dani had little or no cause for complaint, then I don't think the problem is mine.



The bautista thing was far more egregious particularly in retrospect, with my fanboyism and the TV commentators possibly exaggerating the gravity of rossi's error, but I still don't think it was a very feasible move even for valentino in the conditions, not withstanding all the brilliant moves feasible for him which may not have been feasible for others in the past. As I have often said, he is probably statistically the safest rider in history, and the jerez thing probably only takes his count of attempted unfeasible moves in his career up to 2 or 2.5 in total, but this does not mean it didn't happen, whether or not stoner was ungracious with a one-liner in response to it.

 

[michaelm]

At the end of the day both crashes were mistakes, if not they would not have crashed ! Rossi tried to pass from too far back, probably encouraged by the amount of successful passes just prior to the crash taking out stoner.

Stoner trying to pass his team mate with a huge lean angle on an off camber bumpy track notorious for unforced errors. Both riders ambitions out weight their talents at those particular moments because both ended up in the gravel. Stoner was not totally blameless at jerez, after all he did leave the door open inviting a pass. It was just a pity like stoner rossi lost the front but due to a wet track in rossi's case.

It was lucky Stoner didn't take out pedro because pedro was the faster rider so stoner did not actually get alongside unlike the rossi crash.

I may have to go back and look at it again, I only saw it the once live, but my take was that dani rode a brilliant last lap and stoner crashed trying to stay close enough to make a pass in the following corner or corners rather than while actually attempting a pass, which he wouldn't be trying to accomplish at a time he was at such an extreme lean angle. It would also seem difficult to lose the bike in a sufficiently forward direction rather than mainly laterally as he did at such an angle and where he was on the track, and hence for his error to have impacted dani from as far behind him as he was when he went down.