Furusawa: I'd rather keep Rossi

TP70 said:

That is complete paranoia and complete ......... No serious spectator can .... on Rossi's career. I have never read what you suggest on this forum. As a Stoner fan I can not even compare Stoner with Rossi as far as careers go. But you will hear from me and others that today at this point in time Rossi has competitors that are at the same level or maybe even better than him in a particular race or possibly over a championship season such as in 2007 when Stoner out raced and out rode Rossi over a championship season. Of course Rossi went on to do the same thing back the next 2 seasons and we are yet to see who the best will be this season but no one can dispute Rossi's career which is unequalled in history.



One thing is certain, the mantle will be passed from Rossi to another rider. That may happen due to a Rossi decline or it may happen due to Rossi's retirement but sure enough it will happen. What we will then wait to see is if someone can ever beat Rossi's career. I am sure that once upon a time people discussed Ago's career and said it would never be beat.



We should all thank the likes of Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa because I have no doubt that Rossi would no longer be racing 2 wheels if they hadn't come along. Hayden in 2006 and Stoner in 2007 lit a fire under Rossi's arse that took him to a whole new level.

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Well said TP...



As for the post topic it comes down to two simple choices for Yamaha; 1. Rossi continues with Yamaha as his career wanes and he eventually retires based on his current ability AND long-term marketability - Spies would be a very good fit as teammate, or 2. Youth rules and Yamaha goes with long-term insurance of competitiveness with Jorge and Ben in the saddles.

TP70 said:

That is complete paranoia and complete ......... No serious spectator can .... on Rossi's career. I have never read what you suggest on this forum. As a Stoner fan I can not even compare Stoner with Rossi as far as careers go. But you will hear from me and others that today at this point in time Rossi has competitors that are at the same level or maybe even better than him in a particular race or possibly over a championship season such as in 2007 when Stoner out raced and out rode Rossi over a championship season. Of course Rossi went on to do the same thing back the next 2 seasons and we are yet to see who the best will be this season but no one can dispute Rossi's career which is unequalled in history.



One thing is certain, the mantle will be passed from Rossi to another rider. That may happen due to a Rossi decline or it may happen due to Rossi's retirement but sure enough it will happen. What we will then wait to see is if someone can ever beat Rossi's career. I am sure that once upon a time people discussed Ago's career and said it would never be beat.



We should all thank the likes of Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa because I have no doubt that Rossi would no longer be racing 2 wheels if they hadn't come along. Hayden in 2006 and Stoner in 2007 lit a fire under Rossi's arse that took him to a whole new level.

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I thought we were talking about who is and is not a "legend". legends are based on careers not an individual race or season imo. Some here have stated Stoner is a Legend or the next Mick Doohan who is a legend imo. Other's here TP have suggested rossi needs to ride for yet another make or even bizarrely a satellite team and win to prove he is the goat ! Hence my moving goal posts statement . It was the biaggi fans who claimed rossi only won cos he had the RC211v, Rossi changed to the M1 that biaggi could not win on and won the wc when the yam clearly was not the best bike. Rossi came 2nd in the championship on a non factory bike yet the haters claim it was as good as the Repsol ignoring the fact he was a skinny young rookie on the mad bad 500 honda that damn near killed mick doohan Pitty stoner never got to 'proove' himself on a 500.

TP70 said:

That is complete paranoia and complete ......... No serious spectator can .... on Rossi's career. I have never read what you suggest on this forum. As a Stoner fan I can not even compare Stoner with Rossi as far as careers go. But you will hear from me and others that today at this point in time Rossi has competitors that are at the same level or maybe even better than him in a particular race or possibly over a championship season such as in 2007 when Stoner out raced and out rode Rossi over a championship season. Of course Rossi went on to do the same thing back the next 2 seasons and we are yet to see who the best will be this season but no one can dispute Rossi's career which is unequalled in history.



One thing is certain, the mantle will be passed from Rossi to another rider. That may happen due to a Rossi decline or it may happen due to Rossi's retirement but sure enough it will happen. What we will then wait to see is if someone can ever beat Rossi's career. I am sure that once upon a time people discussed Ago's career and said it would never be beat.



We should all thank the likes of Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa because I have no doubt that Rossi would no longer be racing 2 wheels if they hadn't come along. Hayden in 2006 and Stoner in 2007 lit a fire under Rossi's arse that took him to a whole new level.

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Maybe you should read more carefully before rushing to the reply button...

You just confirm my post completely when you triumphantly state the super-obvious: "One thing is certain, the mantle will be passed from Rossi to another rider." What a revelation, really.

This line of yours is the perfect summary of what I said: some people just can't wait to see Rossi decline. No worries, he will eventually decline, or retire, just be patient. Maybe he will retire still as #1, who knows -- but some people will then say that he retired because he was afraid to lose the next year. Of course... Unless he keeps winning against all younger champions until he's 80, he cannot be the "best", poor thing

chopperman said:

Rossi came 2nd in the championship on a non factory bike yet the haters claim it was as good as the Repsol ignoring the fact he was a skinny young rookie on the mad bad 500 honda that damn near killed mick doohan

Pitty stoner never got to 'proove' himself on a 500.

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The nastro azzurro bike was in fact considerably better than at least alex criville's repsol honda bike in 2000, but only because valentino was developing/sorting it rather than alex.



There are as yet no premier class legends other than valentino rossi since mick doohan's retirement. Winning any premier class world championship at any time is still pretty good though.

TP70 said:

That is complete paranoia and complete ......... No serious spectator can .... on Rossi's career. I have never read what you suggest on this forum. As a Stoner fan I can not even compare Stoner with Rossi as far as careers go. But you will hear from me and others that today at this point in time Rossi has competitors that are at the same level or maybe even better than him in a particular race or possibly over a championship season such as in 2007 when Stoner out raced and out rode Rossi over a championship season. Of course Rossi went on to do the same thing back the next 2 seasons and we are yet to see who the best will be this season but no one can dispute Rossi's career which is unequalled in history.



One thing is certain, the mantle will be passed from Rossi to another rider. That may happen due to a Rossi decline or it may happen due to Rossi's retirement but sure enough it will happen. What we will then wait to see is if someone can ever beat Rossi's career. I am sure that once upon a time people discussed Ago's career and said it would never be beat.



We should all thank the likes of Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa because I have no doubt that Rossi would no longer be racing 2 wheels if they hadn't come along. Hayden in 2006 and Stoner in 2007 lit a fire under Rossi's arse that took him to a whole new level.

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So breaking it up in little parts as a single race means a Legendary Status, then on any given race also these Riders could Legends for beating Rossi: ABE Norick, BARROS Alex, BIAGGI Max, CAPIROSSI Loris, CRIVILLE Alex, GIBERNAU Sete, McCOY Garry, ROBERTS JR Kenny, TAMADA Makoto, UKAWA Tohru. (2000 - 2003 Riders with a least a win).



Let's stretch it to Championships: Is ROBERTS JR a Legend?

chopperman said:

I thought we were talking about who is and is not a "legend". legends are based on careers not an individual race or season imo. Some here have stated Stoner is a Legend or the next Mick Doohan who is a legend imo. Other's here TP have suggested rossi needs to ride for yet another make or even bizarrely a satellite team and win to prove he is the goat ! Hence my moving goal posts statement . It was the biaggi fans who claimed rossi only won cos he had the RC211v, Rossi changed to the M1 that biaggi could not win on and won the wc when the yam clearly was not the best bike. Rossi came 2nd in the championship on a non factory bike yet the haters claim it was as good as the Repsol ignoring the fact he was a skinny young rookie on the mad bad 500 honda that damn near killed mick doohan Pitty stoner never got to 'proove' himself on a 500.

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+1.

J4rn0 said:

Maybe you should read more carefully before rushing to the reply button...

You just confirm my post completely when you triumphantly state the super-obvious: "One thing is certain, the mantle will be passed from Rossi to another rider." What a revelation, really.

This line of yours is the perfect summary of what I said: some people just can't wait to see Rossi decline. No worries, he will eventually decline, or retire, just be patient. Maybe he will retire still as #1, who knows -- but some people will then say that he retired because he was afraid to lose the next year. Of course... Unless he keeps winning against all younger champions until he's 80, he cannot be the "best", poor thing

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+2.

michaelm said:

The nastro azzurro bike was in fact considerably better than at least alex criville's repsol honda bike in 2000, but only because valentino was developing/sorting it rather than alex.

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Sounds like Lorenzo’s complains to me! Or at least Rossi’s haters based on Lorenzo’s complains!

michaelm said:

There are as yet no premier class legends other than valentino rossi since mick doohan's retirement. Winning any premier class world championship at any time is still pretty good though.

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No doubt winning a Championship is very good!

michaelm said:

The nastro azzurro bike was in fact considerably better than at least alex criville's repsol honda bike in 2000, but only because valentino was developing/sorting it rather than alex.



There are as yet no premier class legends other than valentino rossi since mick doohan's retirement. Winning any premier class world championship at any time is still pretty good though.

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Not at the beginning of the 2000 season: the Nastro Azzurro NSR was intially thesame as the Repsol, which means it was bad. Criville had developed the NSR500 along the wrong lines during the winter, and that had made the bike all but unrideable. Then for the first half of the season HRC were not listening at all to rookie Rossi, they were following only Criville's leads. OOnly when they saw that Rossi was doing better than Criville anyway, they began listening more to him making the changes he had been asking all along, and so Rossi finished the season in 2nd place.

Which made Burgess comment that had HRC listened to young rookie Rossi since the beginning, he would probably have won the 2000 title. Burgess' words, not mine

michaelm said:

The nastro azzurro bike was in fact considerably better than at least alex criville's repsol honda bike in 2000, but only because valentino was developing/sorting it rather than alex.



There are as yet no premier class legends other than valentino rossi since mick doohan's retirement. Winning any premier class world championship at any time is still pretty good though.

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I think you missed my point mike whether it was a full factory bike or not is besides the point really. We don't really know like we don't really know how different the tech 3 bikes are to the factory outfit. People will claim it was better just because he did well on it. If Rossi went to tech 3 and won the detractors would only say that was a full factory bike. If he wins it's because he has some unfair advantage, if he loses its because he is past it.

chopperman said:

I think you missed my point mike

whether it was a full factory bike or not is besides the point really. We don't really know like we don't really know how different the tech 3 bikes are to the factory outfit. People will claim it was better just because he did well on it. If Rossi went to tech 3 and won the detractors would only say that was a full factory bike. If he wins it's because he has some unfair advantage, if he loses its because he is past it.

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No, I did get it, but you were also being somewhat selective since when I said the nastro azzurro bike was a qasi (as in bloody near) factory bike I also said kenny roberts senior was the only rider to have done better than valentino in his rookie season in the modern era in his case on what was very definitely a full-factory bike. He was also a legend, of course. I actually think rossi possibly could have won the 2006 world championship on the lcr honda; there would certainly have been less problem with chassis availability.

J4rn0 said:

I wonder where you have been last year...?!

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Was Lorenzo a serious title threat last year? Why was it highly publicized that in Lorenzo's one year contract with Yamaha he would get equal treatment as Rossi? Why was it such a big deal? Leading us to believe that this was not the case last year. Why was it soon after that Rossi began making his threats? Simply put, the way I see it is Lorenzo is asking for equal treatment and Rossi is asking for un-equal teatment.



I believe that Lorenzo is a serious title contender this year. I am also enjoying the fact that, at least on paper, Lorenzo's bike is the same as Rossi's. Thats the beauty of the situation. No excuses for Lorenzo or Rossi. May the best team win. It's a situation that we have all been begging for, the two best riders on the same stuff going head to head.

SackWack said:

Was Lorenzo a serious title threat last year? Why was it highly publicized that in Lorenzo's one year contract with Yamaha he would get equal treatment as Rossi? Why was it such a big deal? Leading us to believe that this was not the case last year. Why was it soon after that Rossi began making his threats? Simply put, the way I see it is Lorenzo is asking for equal treatment and Rossi is asking for un-equal teatment.



I believe that Lorenzo is a serious title contender this year. I am also enjoying the fact that, at least on paper, Lorenzo's bike is the same as Rossi's. Thats the beauty of the situation. No excuses for Lorenzo or Rossi. May the best team win. It's a situation that we have all been begging for, the two best riders on the same stuff going head to head.

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Damn right he was a title threat, Bearing in mine he had 4 dnf's and still came 2nd in the championship. They were on equal equipment in 08 but not sharing data which is only right when both are chasing the championship. Lorenzo was asking to be #1 rider and that aint going to happen when rossi is there. Why ? because of the work time and championships he has given the team compared to lorenzo.

Below is what was widely reported in 2009 after Lorenzo signed another year with Yamaha

While Yamaha resisted becoming involved in a financial bidding war for Lorenzo, there does seem to have been some concessions from the Japanese factory to help clinch the deal.



“I have to thank Lin Jarvis, and also Furusawa, because they promised me that I would have the same motorcycle as Valentino for the second half of this year and all of next year,” he revealed. “That was a very important point in making my decision.”

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SackWack said:

Below is what was widely reported in 2009 after Lorenzo signed another year with Yamaha

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As far as im aware in 09 Lorenzo did have the same bike as Rossi except for some personal preference bits. In 08 there may have been some difference because Lorenzo was still on Michelin.

chopperman said:

As far as im aware in 09 Lorenzo did have the same bike as Rossi except for some personal preference bits. In 08 there may have been some difference because Lorenzo was still on Michelin.

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I can dig up more articles and quotes if you like. Should I dig up the ones where Rossi says he is thinking about Ducati, or the ones where he states two number one riders is not possible on the same team? As far as what was reported, and quoted from Lorenzo, Yamaha agreed to equal treatment so that Lorenzo would sign for 2010. This in my mind implies that until the contract was signed in 09' he wasn't getting the same treatment as Rossi.



Regardless, hopefully there are no excuses come the end of this season and it's a straight up dogfight battle to the end.

SackWack said:

Below is what was widely reported in 2009 after Lorenzo signed another year with Yamaha

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If you take a look at the points & wins scored by the two riders in the second half of 2009 season (when according to your article Jorge got an equal bike) you will see that Rossi scored more points & wins



(I am taking Saschenring as the start of 2nd half of the season). Even excluding that will not matter much



2009 season 2nd half points : VR -155, JL-119 (VR score 30%more points than JL in the second half)

2009 season 2nd half race wins: VR -3, JL-2



Now how can you say Rossi didn't beat lorenzo on an equal bike ...

SackWack said:

I can dig up more articles and quotes if you like. Should I dig up the ones where Rossi says he is thinking about Ducati, or the ones where he states two number one riders is not possible on the same team? As far as what was reported, and quoted from Lorenzo, Yamaha agreed to equal treatment so that Lorenzo would sign for 2010. This in my mind implies that until the contract was signed in 09' he wasn't getting the same treatment as Rossi.



Regardless, hopefully there are no excuses come the end of this season and it's a straight up dogfight battle to the end.

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Why dig up an article about rossi and ducati, whats that got to do with what were talking about.?

I think you read too much into some of these articles. I think the results and lap times tell you there on the same bike. Lorenzo wanted #1 rider money. He has the bike and from what ive seen he has a very good team and between them there producing terrific results so data sharing is not an issue. It may have been at the start of 09 when lorenzo then switched to stones and his team-mate had already had a season on them, but not now.

In 09 Lorenzo finished 2nd in the championship even with 4 retirements, the other riders who also had 4 retirements or non starts were dovi and stoner. Stoner finishing 4th in the wc and dovi 6th. That shows you what a bike lorenzo has and what a rider he is.

Rossi finished on 306 pts with 1 retirements

Lorenzo finished on 261 pts with 4 retirements



261+ 75 = 336 so as you see apart from the crashes lorenzo did better than rossi.

Im not surprised rossi is not to keen to have a team-mate like that. After all there all after the same thing . Rossi is no doubt better at bringing in the bucks than lorenzo at the moment, It make business sence for yam to favor rossi but its ........ to imply lorenzos bike is not as good as rossi's.



Edit



I notice your now saying "treatment" and not bike. Where did that lorenzo quote originate from that you posted sacky ?

VHMP01 said:

So breaking it up in little parts as a single race means a Legendary Status, then on any given race also these Riders could Legends for beating Rossi: ABE Norick, BARROS Alex, BIAGGI Max, CAPIROSSI Loris, CRIVILLE Alex, GIBERNAU Sete, McCOY Garry, ROBERTS JR Kenny, TAMADA Makoto, UKAWA Tohru. (2000 - 2003 Riders with a least a win).



Let's stretch it to Championships: Is ROBERTS JR a Legend?

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V, please point out to me where I said or even hinted that winning 1 race or 1 championship is considered Legendary? You do yourself such an injustice by reading into my post with such bias.



J4rn0, sorry if I missed your point but glad we are on the same page then. I still don't think there are people here waiting for Rossi to fail in someway. After all there are .... all people on this forum anymore. Why is probably a good topic for a thread.

TP70 said:

V, please point out to me where I said or even hinted that winning 1 race or 1 championship is considered Legendary? You do yourself such an injustice by reading into my post with such bias.



J4rn0, sorry if I missed your point but glad we are on the same page then. I still don't think there are people here waiting for Rossi to fail in someway. After all there are .... all people on this forum anymore. Why is probably a good topic for a thread.

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Oh there's plenty. You surely remember all the negativity about Rossi after he lost the championship in 07 for the second time in a row. All the Rossi is an old man, and rossi only wins if bla bla bla. Sure some of those detractors no longer seem to post anymore but there's still plenty of them still here !

Funny, theres a saying " your only as good as your last race"

...., even the italian press turned on him.

chopperman said:

Oh there's plenty. You surely remember all the negativity about Rossi after he lost the championship in 07 for the second time in a row. All the Rossi is an old man, and rossi only wins if bla bla bla. Sure some of those detractors no longer seem to post anymore but there's still plenty of them still here !

Funny, theres a saying " your only as good as your last race"

...., even the italian press turned on him.

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Man that was vociferous - but then that's the nature of the sporting press in Italy, they have always been renowned for it, and it's the biggest battle the Azzurri face off the field this summer.



In fact, the sporting press as a whole is all about building up and knocking down.



Jeez, I really remember this - it was precipitated by Sete's move at the last corner at Sachsenring, then later the tax shenanigans which coincided with the '06 annus horribilis. Rossi was finished according to the critics, and by '07 he was sunk never to resurface. The detractors were out in force on this forum - I was lurking at the time. Like you Rog, I remember who they were, and I agree, some of them are glaringly conspicuous in their absence.

chopperman said:

Oh there's plenty. You surely remember all the negativity about Rossi after he lost the championship in 07 for the second time in a row. All the Rossi is an old man, and rossi only wins if bla bla bla. Sure some of those detractors no longer seem to post anymore but there's still plenty of them still here !

Funny, theres a saying " your only as good as your last race"

...., even the italian press turned on him.

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Yes the old 'tall poppy' syndrome went international with vr and remains very strong, I do find it amazing how some hate rossi even more than his fans like him, then again some will always despise successful people.........



Rog is right, it doesn't matter that rossi has beaten the best for years or if he continues to, some will just hate him........their mindless attempts at discrediting vr however, are a source of great entertainment for me!! IMO you might get more sense in a psych ward