Furusawa: I'd rather keep Rossi

rossiofsky · May 22, 2010

chopperman said:
The hater's will always move the goal posts. doesn't matter what he does, there will always be yet another test they need to prove his worth

+1

rossiofsky · May 22, 2010

michaelm said:
No, I did get it, but you were also being somewhat selective since when I said the nastro azzurro bike was a qasi (as in bloody near) factory bike I also said kenny roberts senior was the only rider to have done better than valentino in his rookie season in the modern era in his case on what was very definitely a full-factory bike. He was also a legend, of course. I actually think rossi possibly could have won the 2006 world championship on the lcr honda; there would certainly have been less problem with chassis availability.

Do you mean the reliability problems (while leading in Le mans and when he was at 4th place in Laguna) hadn't anything to do with it?

FACTORY · May 22, 2010

chopperman said:
Even if he came second in all those races he would have finished on 321 pts against rossi's 306. Looking at the rest of the season and his finishes i think that it's reasonable to assume he would have podium had he finished. He would have had 309 if he finished 3rd in those race's still beating rossi by 3 pts.

maybe, but it seems "if" is the biggest word out there!!!....and Rossi could have won every race as well. If Stoner stayed in the mix for the whole season as a heathly rider he could have won as well. In 2006 how many races did Hayden finish only a couple seconds off of 1st place??...If he would have won those then what would people say about his championship win???

Point is Lorenzo is a very strong rider, but last year Rossi was better. This year will be a big year for Rossi and Lorenzo.....can Lorenzo have a complete solid season and can Rossi back up his title defense???

Rossi and Lorenzo are the guys to beat every round. They are the best riders and they have the best bike package out there.

michaelm · May 22, 2010

J4rn0 said:
Sure. I may add that many think Rossi "inherited" Doohan's bike in 2000, but that wasn't the case. Rossi in his rookie year started on the new version of the NSR that had been (badly) developed by Criville during the winter ( having the same material as the factory team is not always an advantage!). It took all the first half of the season before HRC listened to him and Burgess and made the changes they were asking for. Not surprisingly, Rossi made most of the points that year in the second half of the season... So that was his first example of setting a bike in the right direction.

I am glad you remember 2000. I made this point recently and it was interpreted as detracting from rossi which I did not intend. Were there other politics with repsol? I imagine criville would not have wanted burgess very close to the repsol team with him having crewed for his bitter rival for all those years (and perhaps vice versa). I think as you say 2000 was proof that it was rossi and not just burgess; I would have thought merely reinstating the doohan bike could have been done easily and early by burgess.

I actually think nicky hayden is the only proven bike developer since rossi and doohan although he takes a little longer; lorenzo and team have proved good at setting up a bike for particular tracks on occasion though.

michaelm · May 22, 2010

rossiofsky said:
Do you mean the reliability problems (while leading in Le mans and when he was at 4th place in Laguna) hadn't anything to do with it?

No I meant if he had ridden for lcr rather than casey he wouldn't have crashed the bike as casey often did.

FACTORY · May 22, 2010

michaelm said:
No I meant if he had ridden for lcr rather than casey he wouldn't have crashed the bike as casey often did.

not with those overnight tires.....but I think he had a front tire throw a chunk in one race

rossiofsky · May 22, 2010

michaelm said:
No I meant if he had ridden for lcr rather than casey he wouldn't have crashed the bike as casey often did.

Ok, i understand your point now,

and i have to say that i Believe in the fact that Hayden is the world champ of 2006, so i dont say he won it by chance, since imo no one can win a championship by chance. The only thing that differs his championship with Rossi and Stoner is that he couldn't back it up by a few good racing years after wards.

chopperman · May 22, 2010

FACTORY said:
maybe, but it seems "if" is the biggest word out there!!!....and Rossi could have won every race as well. If Stoner stayed in the mix for the whole season as a heathly rider he could have won as well. In 2006 how many races did Hayden finish only a couple seconds off of 1st place??...If he would have won those then what would people say about his championship win???

Point is Lorenzo is a very strong rider, but last year Rossi was better. This year will be a big year for Rossi and Lorenzo.....can Lorenzo have a complete solid season and can Rossi back up his title defense???

Rossi and Lorenzo are the guys to beat every round. They are the best riders and they have the best bike package out there.

I agree 'if' means .... at the end of the day. You don't win championships if you don't keep your bike rubber side down. My point was Lorenzo's bike was/is as good as Rossi's and apart from the 3 more dnf's Lorenzo had his results prove this. Lorenzo was on course for the championship but lost the needed points due to crashing.

Welcome by the way.

Mick D · May 22, 2010

michaelm said:
I actually think nicky hayden is the only proven bike developer since rossi and doohan although he takes a little longer; lorenzo and team have proved good at setting up a bike for particular tracks on occasion though.

Hmmm... no props in your mind for Capper or the Tornado?

chopperman · May 22, 2010

Mick D said:
Hmmm... no props in your mind for Capper or the Tornado?

Capi definitely, colin maybe. I know he was the main Michelin man but im not aware of anything else that makes him special in that department.

michaelm · May 22, 2010

chopperman said:
Capi definitely, colin maybe. I know he was the main Michelin man but im not aware of anything else that makes him special in that department.

Actually I would credit loris as well, although I am not sure how much ducati have involved their motogp riders until recently

VHMP01 · May 22, 2010

FACTORY said:
Lorenzo's best move he can make is to just stay at Yamaha whether he wins the title or not to really get into Rossi's head . If he wins the title and Yamaha still picks Rossi to be the #1 rider, Lorenzo should stay, knowing he can beat him on that bike. If he does not win it this year, and he stays with Yamaha, it will just piss off Rossi. It is a win/win for Lorenzo for 2010 and in the long term

How can winning a Title piss anyone off? I think if Rossi wins 2010 and Lorenzo stays at Yamaha, Rossi will say: “You know what; I’ll eat my words and you can stay, but… I beat you at it… Again!” I see no headaches for Rossi with another Title! It also would not be the first time a Rider has to eat his words!

FACTORY · May 22, 2010

VHMP01 said:
How can winning a Title piss anyone off? I think if Rossi wins 2010 and Lorenzo stays at Yamaha, Rossi will say: You know what; Ill eat my words and you can stay, but… I beat you at it… Again! I see no headaches for Rossi with another Title! It also would not be the first time a Rider has to eat his words!

I am talking about Lorenzo not winning the title, coming in a close second and still staying at Yamaha another year to continue battling Rossi. I was getting at the Rossi ultimatum of "if I stay , then Lorenzo goes." That will upset Rossi that his demands of only one top rider on the Yamaha team were not honored/fulfilled. Rossi has lost before but he was still always the favorite and now Lorenzo is slowly changing this idea. Rossi probably feelis it is a matter of time before Lorenzo takes a title...and he looks very strong on the Yamaha, so of course Rossi wants to take that option away from Lorenzo if he can. If Lorenzo goes to another team/bike, Rossi is hoping that will by him another year of being at the top. The rules are making it harder to dominate and win, so he wants to get it while he can......chasing 123 wins is much harder on a one line, follow the leader, engine limit, fuel limit, spec tire limit premier class. Those wins get spread out between Stoner, Lorenzo,and Pedrosa......Rossi had a big piece of the "win pie" in 2008 agaist these guys, in 2009 that piece got smaller. He used to get 20 wins in 2 seasons, but looking at last year's riders and totals, it could take Rossi over 3 1/2 seasons with he can only get 6 wins in a season. That is a long time, and with rules changing in a big way every couple of years, Rossi has no idea how that will impact him.

So to summarize....Rossi does not want Lorenzo at Yamaha period (title or no title for either of them) and wants to gain as many wins as quickly as he can to break Ago's record while the M1 is still the best bike out there.

J4rn0 · May 22, 2010

michaelm said:
I am glad you remember 2000. I made this point recently and it was interpreted as detracting from rossi which I did not intend. Were there other politics with repsol? I imagine criville would not have wanted burgess very close to the repsol team with him having crewed for his bitter rival for all those years (and perhaps vice versa). I think as you say 2000 was proof that it was rossi and not just burgess; I would have thought merely reinstating the doohan bike could have been done easily and early by burgess.

I actually think nicky hayden is the only proven bike developer since rossi and doohan although he takes a little longer; lorenzo and team have proved good at setting up a bike for particular tracks on occasion though.

Unfortunately no, because it was the engine that had been developed the wrong way, so it wasn't something one could fix by simply reverting to an old setup.

Agree about Hayden -- I may say, knowing now that Stoner may be gone Ducati are giving full attention to him and the results show.

Lorenzo simply has a riding style that goes very well with the M1's character. And he is a great talent of course. We cannot know about his development capabilities until he goes somewhere where development is required

J4rn0 · May 22, 2010

FACTORY said:
...............

Rossi and Lorenzo are the guys to beat every round. They are the best riders and they have the best bike package out there.

Hello Factory.

I would not dismiss Stoner this early. He was unlucky at Qatar and Jerez and Le Mans have never been Ducati tracks (improvements are very visible though). The others also will inevitably have DNFs and problems, and Stoner with a little luck could be back in top three very quickly. Stoner can and will win races this year too... One does not need a crystal ball to see that.

FACTORY · May 22, 2010

FACTORY said:
The rules are making it harder to dominate and win, so he wants to get it while he can......chasing 123 wins is much harder on a one line, follow the leader, engine limit, fuel limit, spec tire limit premier class. Those wins get spread out between Stoner, Lorenzo,and Pedrosa......Rossi had a big piece of the "win pie" in 2008 agaist these guys, in 2009 that piece got smaller. He used to get 20 wins in 2 seasons, but looking at last year's riders and totals, it could take Rossi over 3 1/2 seasons with he can only get 6 wins in a season. That is a long time, and with rules changing in a big way every couple of years, Rossi has no idea how that will impact him.

J4rn0 said:
Hello Factory.

I would not dismiss Stoner this early. He was unlucky at Qatar and Jerez and Le Mans have never been Ducati tracks (improvements are very visible though). The others also will inevitably have DNFs and problems, and Stoner with a little luck could be back in top three very quickly. Stoner can and will win races this year too... One does not need a crystal ball to see that.

I never said Stoner did not get wins.....if you read my post I said the wins get spread out with him and Perdosa as well. You said "with a little luck Stoner can be back in the top 3".....but Lorenzo is already there. That is my point, Lorenzo right now is a stronger package. He is not fighting his bike and set ups, and is strong week in, week out.

J4rn0 · May 22, 2010

FACTORY said:
I never said Stoner did not get wins.....if you read my post I said the wins get spread out with him and Perdosa as well. You said "with a little luck Stoner can be back in the top 3".....but Lorenzo is already there. That is my point, Lorenzo right now is a stronger package. He is not fighting his bike and set ups, and is strong week in, week out.

It is not an impossible scenario, but it is really too early to tell... Only 2 races. Anything can happen starting tomorrow, and then there are 15 more races to go. A long way.

My feeling is that Stoner belongs right there where Rossi and Lorenzo are.I wouldn't be suprised if he 'll be third in points by the time the 5th race comes along...

Casey has won 20 races since 2007, against 6 by Pedrosa. He's not going to share the leftovers with him...

VHMP01 · May 22, 2010

FACTORY said:
I am talking about Lorenzo not winning the title, coming in a close second and still staying at Yamaha another year to continue battling Rossi. I was getting at the Rossi ultimatum of "if I stay , then Lorenzo goes." That will upset Rossi that his demands of only one top rider on the Yamaha team were not honored/fulfilled. Rossi has lost before but he was still always the favorite and now Lorenzo is slowly changing this idea. Rossi probably feelis it is a matter of time before Lorenzo takes a title...and he looks very strong on the Yamaha, so of course Rossi wants to take that option away from Lorenzo if he can. If Lorenzo goes to another team/bike, Rossi is hoping that will by him another year of being at the top. The rules are making it harder to dominate and win, so he wants to get it while he can......chasing 123 wins is much harder on a one line, follow the leader, engine limit, fuel limit, spec tire limit premier class. Those wins get spread out between Stoner, Lorenzo,and Pedrosa......Rossi had a big piece of the "win pie" in 2008 agaist these guys, in 2009 that piece got smaller. He used to get 20 wins in 2 seasons, but looking at last year's riders and totals, it could take Rossi over 3 1/2 seasons with he can only get 6 wins in a season. That is a long time, and with rules changing in a big way every couple of years, Rossi has no idea how that will impact him.

So to summarize....Rossi does not want Lorenzo at Yamaha period (title or no title for either of them) and wants to gain as many wins as quickly as he can to break Ago's record while the M1 is still the best bike out there.

I am pretty sure that if Rossi has Lorenzo’s number, it does not really matter if he stays at Yamaha. Meaning that if Rossi wins 2010 it would not be against a Rookie, or even a 2 year Novice, but a full 3 years expertise Rider, on the same ‘best’ bike, with total Factory support, much younger, and would have been beaten 3 times by then! It means Lorenzo should start trying something else in 2011 in my opinion, or psychologically he would start eroding! As 12 years of Riders before him… If I were Rossi I would not mind eating my words at all!

michaelm · May 22, 2010

J4rn0 said:
Unfortunately no, because it was the engine that had been developed the wrong way, so it wasn't something one could fix by simply reverting to an old setup.

This was more or less my point although I did not know what development had made the bike so bad. Presumably suzuki and yamaha had actually improved their bikes comparative to the last doohan bike as well.

chopperman · May 23, 2010

michaelm said:
This was more or less my point although I did not know what development had made the bike so bad. Presumably suzuki and yamaha had actually improved their bikes comparative to the last doohan bike as well.

Non of the Honda's were that good, so even if Rossi's bike was in actual fact a re painted Factory bike that wasn't saying much.

check out the championship standing for that year

My link

Furusawa: I'd rather keep Rossi

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