Formula 1 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Mar 26 2008, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well, from a "business/professional" point of view, who needs loyalty? Sure it's unethical for most people, but profession wise (no matter in what profession you are), you need a team/business/company that can bring you greater income/profits/success. You need it and you go look for it. Being a formula 1 driver, as a profession, is not charity, hence you go where the money or the greater success is at. well of course, that's me talking about things from a very basic point of view. Given the human/ethics/environment factor...it's a whole different story.
I agree, the loyalty thing is being completely overblown imo. At the end of the day it's a very ruthless sport/business/industry, and succeeding in it tends to mean stabbing people who've shown loyalty to you in the back sometimes. Theres really no room for loyalty in racing because it changes so quickly. I'm sure if McLaren had two or three poor seasons in a row, Lewis would go to Ferrari, for example.

I don't think he'll go to Ferrari next year, I just think he's playing the media speculation to his advantage, trying to get Renault to improve. He may go in 2010 though, as I think 2009 will be Kimi's last year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 26 2008, 11:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2009 will be Kimi's last year.

we're thinking the same thing

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Mar 26 2008, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yes you are right. but we have to remember that in this context, ferrari isn't the one going for nando, rather, it is the other way around. and with the current form of renault, nando obviously needs a stronger team if he wants to go back to his winning ways. so he needs to "dance with the music" until he has acquired the right to demand number 1 status as he deemed fit.
What a nice way to put it

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Mar 26 2008, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. what really is the condition of a number 1 - number 2 driver system within a team? coz if we're talking about mere ranking, then, does it really matter? to have great drivers means greater chances of winning both championships; to have not so great drivers would mean the opposite.

2. but, if we're talking about number 1 as - champion material, and number 2 as - not so great, so-so driver relatively ...then, my take on things are:
winning both championships would depend on where the other drivers are ending up. doesn't really make things easier, nor does it make it harder.

3. if the case is like what's happening to kimi and massa right now (kimi winning, massa dnf), then it doesn't really help ferrari that much. most esp not with the constructor's championship.
1. Yes, I understand what you're saying, but they could also steal points from each other, and if there's another great team, for example McLaren, they might end up winning the title (WDC) because Kimi and Fernando ''steal'' points from each other.

2. True, it depends on where the other driver finishes. That's why I think having a really great driver in your team, someone like MS for example (or FA/KR) and another driver who's also good, but not great, like Barrichello, David Coulthard, and yes..also Felipe Massa, increases the chances of winning the WCC. Ferrari did it last year, MS and RB did it for many years in a row, and DC also did a good job ''playing 2nd fiddle (sorry, I dont want to sounds harsh, but thats just the way it was) to Mika Hakkinen and even to Kimi Raikkonen. That's why I think, having a great driver (nr.1) and a good driver (nr.2) in a team increases the chances of winning both titles. That's how it has been at Ferrari the last years, and many people say it's not fair, or whatever..but it's what works, so why change it??

3. Well it worked last season, BUT..it seems FM has some trouble driving without TC. I hope, for his sake, it will get better from now on, or else Ferrari indeed will be screwed. Because they can't afford to loose points like that. Let's hope FM will do better, if not, I think a young, talented guy like Vettel could take over. That's my opinion anyway. I think he's a future star as well, only 20 years of age!!! He could go to Ferrari, and gradually take over the Nr.1 spot from Kimi, because I don't think Kimi will stay in F1 too long, maybe 3 more years I think. So giving the seat to someone young seems like a good idea.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 26 2008, 07:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You obviously don't have any confidence in this statement otherwise you wouldn't be slightly bothered by the idea of him being in the team. Alonso clearly would be a threat to Kimi, but i don't think this would be a great move for him because he definitely wouldn't get the preferential treatment that allows him to thrive.

I guess the use of an emotican indicating that I wasn't serious completely alluded you. As I said before previously, 2007 showed how much I doubt his loyalty to a team. If he were to go to Ferrari whats to say he wont do the same thing and start moaning because he doesn't get GOD like treatment.

As for the statement about Kimi last year, do you mean Kimi last year with Ferrari or as a whole?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 26 2008, 04:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree, the loyalty thing is being completely overblown imo. At the end of the day it's a very ruthless sport/business/industry, and succeeding in it tends to mean stabbing people who've shown loyalty to you in the back sometimes. Theres really no room for loyalty in racing because it changes so quickly. I'm sure if McLaren had two or three poor seasons in a row, Lewis would go to Ferrari, for example.

I don't think he'll go to Ferrari next year, I just think he's playing the media speculation to his advantage, trying to get Renault to improve. He may go in 2010 though, as I think 2009 will be Kimi's last year.
Yeah, I don't think we will actually see Kimi and Fernando in one team. He could go to Ferrari in the future. I also don't think Raikkonen will be in F1 much longer. 2 years for sure, and maybe..maybe another year. Depends on what will happen. Maybe Raikkonen will win the next two years, and feels like winning another title..?? Personally I don't think Kimi cares about records. He's in F1 now, and he wants to do well as long as he's still around.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 26 2008, 03:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I don't think we will actually see Kimi and Fernando in one team. He could go to Ferrari in the future. I also don't think Raikkonen will be in F1 much longer. 2 years for sure, and maybe..maybe another year. Depends on what will happen. Maybe Raikkonen will win the next two years, and feels like winning another title..?? Personally I don't think Kimi cares about records. He's in F1 now, and he wants to do well as long as he's still around.
I just don't get the feeling Kimi will stay that long. I think he'll just take his boat to Ibiza and we won't see him for a while. I'd like to see him stay because it adds strength to the championship but I just get the feeling he won't.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 26 2008, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What a nice way to put it


1. Yes, I understand what you're saying, but they could also steal points from each other, and if there's another great team, for example McLaren, they might end up winning the title (WDC) because Kimi and Fernando ''steal'' points from each other.

2. True, it depends on where the other driver finishes. That's why I think having a really great driver in your team, someone like MS for example (or FA/KR) and another driver who's also good, but not great, like Barrichello, David Coulthard, and yes..also Felipe Massa, increases the chances of winning the WCC. Ferrari did it last year, MS and RB did it for many years in a row, and DC also did a good job ''playing 2nd fiddle (sorry, I dont want to sounds harsh, but thats just the way it was) to Mika Hakkinen and even to Kimi Raikkonen. That's why I think, having a great driver (nr.1) and a good driver (nr.2) in a team increases the chances of winning both titles. That's how it has been at Ferrari the last years, and many people say it's not fair, or whatever..but it's what works, so why change it??

3. Well it worked last season, BUT..it seems FM has some trouble driving without TC. I hope, for his sake, it will get better from now on, or else Ferrari indeed will be screwed. Because they can't afford to loose points like that. Let's hope FM will do better, if not, I think a young, talented guy like Vettel could take over. That's my opinion anyway. I think he's a future star as well, only 20 years of age!!! He could go to Ferrari, and gradually take over the Nr.1 spot from Kimi, because I don't think Kimi will stay in F1 too long, maybe 3 more years I think. So giving the seat to someone young seems like a good idea.

may be i was being very idealistic about things as i was thinking if a team has two great drivers, then the most usual scenario would be a 1-2 finish for them. yes they would take points from each other, but if they keep other drivers finish no higher than third, then the championship would just be between them, and the constructor's championship is safe with them...but as i've said, it's me being too idealistic.

and as for number 3, we can't really say it worked last season as mclaren was stripped off with constructors points. given that situation, i don't think we could really conclude.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 26 2008, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I just don't get the feeling Kimi will stay that long. I think he'll just take his boat to Ibiza and we won't see him for a while. I'd like to see him stay because it adds strength to the championship but I just get the feeling he won't.
Yeah, I never thought he would stay long. I'm surprised he's still around actually
Well I'm not surprised, because it was obvious he wanted to win the title first. He accomplished that, so he won't be in f1 for 16 years, like MS.
I wish he would stay for a long time too, but I don't think he's the type..he will probably go to Ibiza like you said!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 26 2008, 03:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree, the loyalty thing is being completely overblown imo. At the end of the day it's a very ruthless sport/business/industry, and succeeding in it tends to mean stabbing people who've shown loyalty to you in the back sometimes. Theres really no room for loyalty in racing because it changes so quickly. I'm sure if McLaren had two or three poor seasons in a row, Lewis would go to Ferrari, for example.
I agree in general, any driver should be entitled to go wherever he feels is best for him once his contract is up, particularly as the teams mostly seem to show little loyalty to the drivers in the modern era. I think aggressively publicly criticising your current team whilst still contracted to them, and even if reports are to be believed effectively trying to blackmail them, are more questionable and some might say unprofessional. Of course if mclaren really were favouring hamilton and alonso perceived that the chance of 3 or more successive championships and unquestioned ranking with the greats was unfairly being taken away from him I suppose it is to some extent understandable.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 26 2008, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree in general, any driver should be entitled to go wherever he feels is best for him once his contract is up, particularly as the teams mostly seem to show little loyalty to the drivers in the modern era. I think aggressively publicly criticising your current team whilst still contracted to them, and even if reports are to be believed effectively trying to blackmail them, are more questionable and some might say unprofessional. Of course if mclaren really were favouring hamilton and alonso perceived that the chance of 3 or more successive championships and unquestioned ranking with the greats was unfairly being taken away from him I suppose it is to some extent understandable.
Yes..they should go wherever they want. But I just don't think they should start complaing after 2 races after re-joining a team. That's what I think anyway. FA can go wherever he wants, but now he's a Renault driver, he should focus on getting good results with them, what he will or won't do after this season remains to be seen, but no need to say he wants to go to Ferrari. Not this early in the season anyway. Of course we don't know what he exactly said, because the media often blows things out of proportion, so I also don't know what to believe.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 26 2008, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>From Ferrari's point of view it wouldn't make any sense to give Fernando a seat, at least not yet.

I disagree (oh yes ). We can question Fernandos loyalty all day long and make an example of him having a bad year, but Ferrari and the people who matter know what he is capable of and as long as the terms of a potnetial partnership were clarified in advance i wouldn't expect there to be a problem. The 2007 fiasco was very much a result of the surprise that was Hamilton, and anyone who says they were expecting that was foolish to do so or is lying. Kimi makes no secret about the fact that he will consider leaving the sport in the not too distant future, and then what are Ferrari supposed to do? Alonso is still young and is undoubtedly one of the best drivers on the grid, i think he has more loyalty to the sport than Kimi does so could be a good lonmg term prospect for Ferrari. And in the short term Ferrari can reduce their chance of losing by eliminating the competition, they can't lose the title to a man driving their car...................

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Mar 26 2008, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well, from a "business/professional" point of view, who needs loyalty? Sure it's unethical for most people, but profession wise (no matter in what profession you are), you need a team/business/company that can bring you greater income/profits/success. You need it and you go look for it. Being a formula 1 driver, as a profession, is not charity, hence you go where the money or the greater success is at. well of course, that's me talking about things from a very basic point of view. Given the human/ethics/environment factor...it's a whole different story.

There are no issues with Loyalty as far as i am concerned. Nobody in F1 is there to do anyone else a favour, they are doing a job and will work with the people who give them the best chance of succeeding. The teams and drivers understand that and Loyalty in some cases is a weakness.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 27 2008, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I disagree (oh yes ). We can question Fernandos loyalty all day long and make an example of him having a bad year, but Ferrari and the people who matter know what he is capable of and as long as the terms of a potnetial partnership were clarified in advance i wouldn't expect there to be a problem. The 2007 fiasco was very much a result of the surprise that was Hamilton, and anyone who says they were expecting that was foolish to do so or is lying. Kimi makes no secret about the fact that he will consider leaving the sport in the not too distant future, and then what are Ferrari supposed to do? Alonso is still young and is undoubtedly one of the best drivers on the grid, i think he has more loyalty to the sport than Kimi does so could be a good lonmg term prospect for Ferrari. And in the short term Ferrari can reduce their chance of losing by eliminating the competition, they can't lose the title to a man driving their car...................
Are you talking about Fernando going to Ferrari when Kimi leaves?? That would be good for Ferrari, I agree. I don't think they NEED to have both Kimi and Fernando at the same time, that's all I'm saying. Why change a winning team??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 27 2008, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you talking about Fernando going to Ferrari when Kimi leaves?? That would be good for Ferrari, I agree. I don't think they NEED to have both Kimi and Fernando at the same time, that's all I'm saying. Why change a winning team??

like i said, secure Alonso now while he's available and he wont be a threat in another team. Also, Massa is a potato

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 27 2008, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Massa is a potato



i like massa but i still laughed reading this

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 27 2008, 02:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>like i said, secure Alonso now while he's available and he wont be a threat in another team. Also, Massa is a potato
It doesn't look like FA is going to be a threat, at least not this season. If he's not going to Ferrari next season, then he will stay at Renault most likely. I still see no reason for Ferrari to give him a seat..not yet anyway! It could be a different story next season IF Renault has a better car. At the moment they should be thankful when teams in front of them don't finish, so they can score a point.

About Massa..he's good on his day, but it seems he can only win from pole, and things need to go exactly according to plan if he wants to destroy his opponents. He's a good 2nd driver, and I don't say that to be harsh on him. Last season wasn't good for his confidence, and these 2 first races obviously didn't help at all. I really hope he will do well next race, for his sake, and for Ferrari's sake. He won in Bahrain last year, maybe he can repeat it??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 27 2008, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. It doesn't look like FA is going to be a threat, at least not this season. If he's not going to Ferrari next season, then he will stay at Renault most likely. I still see no reason for Ferrari to give him a seat..not yet anyway! It could be a different story next season IF Renault has a better car. At the moment they should be thankful when teams in front of them don't finish, so they can score a point.

2. About Massa..he's good on his day, but it seems he can only win from pole, and things need to go exactly according to plan if he wants to destroy his opponents. He's a good 2nd driver, and I don't say that to be harsh on him. Last season wasn't good for his confidence, and these 2 first races obviously didn't help at all. I really hope he will do well next race, for his sake, and for Ferrari's sake. He won in Bahrain last year, maybe he can repeat it??

1. I don't think he is a threat this season but next year Renault will have had time to climb, or he may even move to another competative team. Ferrari don't NEED him of course, but they would be stronger than without him for sure.

2. Most drivers at this level will win when all the parts fall perfectly into place, the championships go to those who make the best job out of the bad days. I don't think Massa had a bad year at all last year but he needs to get better. I expect multiple race wins from Felippe this season (I would imagine his bosses do to) but if he keeps making mistakes he will not only harm himself, but also Ferrari and potentially even kimi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 27 2008, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. I don't think he is a threat this season but next year Renault will have had time to climb, or he may even move to another competative team. Ferrari don't NEED him of course, but they would be stronger than without him for sure.

2. Most drivers at this level will win when all the parts fall perfectly into place, the championships go to those who make the best job out of the bad days. I don't think Massa had a bad year at all last year but he needs to get better. I expect multiple race wins from Felippe this season (I would imagine his bosses do to) but if he keeps making mistakes he will not only harm himself, but also Ferrari and potentially even kimi.
1. We don't know if Renault will be a lot better next season, but I wouldn't bet against it. I consider Fernando the best driver in F1 at the moment, but I woulnd't say it's certain Ferrari would be stronger with him than without him. I guess McLaren was also stronger with him last season then.

2. Massa didn't have a bad year at all last season. I definitely agree, but in the end Raikkonen won the title (also with his help in Brazil of course) and he didn't. That doesn't necessarily mean Kimi is the number one driver at Ferrari now, but Massa needs to step up his game, or else he will become the number two driver (mentally..because I don't think Ferrari will favour Kimi over Massa without any reason). I also expect Massa to win races this season, he did so last season, and also in 06, I don't see any reason why he will stop doing so in 08. The TC ban shouldn't affect him that much IMO.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 27 2008, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I woulnd't say it's certain Ferrari would be stronger with him than without him. I guess McLaren was also stronger with him last season then.

They would have stronger driver lineup for sure, the results would depend on how well that was managed and i have faith in the red team.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 28 2008, 10:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. They would have stronger driver lineup for sure, the results would depend on how well that was managed

2. and i have faith in the red team.
1. They would have the strongest drivers line-up for sure, after all they are the only champions in F1 at the moment.

2. That makes two of us then