Formula 1 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Feb 26 2008, 01:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It is amazing that schumacher can just jump in the car and do this sort of time. He may be a cheating ......., but he is a cheating ....... who is an awfully good race car driver. You rather get the impression if he raced this season he would be a fair chance for title number 8, as the australian edition of the F1 magazine said recently.
It's amazing indeed. It show he's still good enough. For sure this is ''only'' testing, but I have no doubts he would still be a title contender. I dont agree that he's a ''cheating .......''. He did some controversial things in the past, true, but he isn't a cheating ........ He's one of the best ever...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Feb 26 2008, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It is amazing that schumacher can just jump in the car and do this sort of time. He may be a cheating ......., but he is a cheating ....... who is an awfully good race car driver. You rather get the impression if he raced this season he would be a fair chance for title number 8, as the australian edition of the F1 magazine said recently.

It certainly is very impressive, but he's a very experienced man. A lot of people can drive F1 cars quickly though and it is only testing. If he still had the drive, commitment and motivation to be taken seriously as a front runner he wouldn't have quit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 27 2008, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It certainly is very impressive, but he's a very experienced man. A lot of people can drive F1 cars quickly though and it is only testing. If he still had the drive, commitment and motivation to be taken seriously as a front runner he wouldn't have quit.
There was no suggestion from him about returning. It was the journalist who said he could still win.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Feb 27 2008, 07:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There was no suggestion from him about returning. It was the journalist who said he could still win.
I think the journalist isn't the only one who thinks that

My verdicts on these drivers:

Hamilton - Clearly a huge talent, but had too much pressure on him last season which got to him in the end. He has the talent, but he needs the nerve and the press must stop bothering him all the time if he's to make a lasting impression.

Raikkonen - With a championship finally under his belt it isn't surprising to see him top the pre-season tests, he should translate these into race wins but with Alonso back at Renault he may be under even more pressure this year.

Schumacher - No two ways about it: The guy's a racing legend officially. He loves racing, so it isn't surprising that he was tempted back into some sort of role at F1. Still decent even despite his seniority. I'm sure Ferrari will find his input valuable.
Nakajima – Don’t know much about him, but he must be something special to win a seat at Williams. This effort looks promising from the off, but it needs to be consistent if he is to make a mark.

Kovalainen – Good to see he made the most of his Renault drive but with a new position at McLaren, it presents a young-guns dilemma with him and Hamilton. This may turn ugly, but I hope it doesn’t.

Rosberg – He’s doing a fair job getting the Williams team back on it’s feet. He’s a potential star of the future in my reckoning. It all depends on how the team fares this season.

Alonso – Renault weren’t as fast in 07 as they were before, so it might present a problem for the former world champion. I think he’ll manage, though, he has the talent to take the car to the top.

Heidfeld – Had been underrated for a long time, it’s good to see him in a consitent team at last. That first win still eludes him, though, and there’s a lot of facial hair recently. New look, new driver perhaps?

Webber – Will his bad luck finally subside this season? He’s been plagued by it throughout his career, hopefully with the new Red Bull car reliability problems will vanish.

Vettel – Near-podium last year, and already some shockingly good performances. For such a young driver, this is a brilliant start, but can he follow through with that? First full season will determine that.

Sutil – If Force India are as good as they say they’ll be, then Sutil will finally be able to challenge for the points positions more regularly. The last thing I want to see is him fade into obscurity like other forgotten stars at the back before him.

Klien – Good to see Klien back, even if it is only testing duties. Although I don’t rate him much, he can be a consistent driver on the night. However, that only seemed to come every once in a blue moon for him. A return is unlikely.

Liuzzi – The last F3000 champion has been given poor treatment in his F1 campaign, but he’s fought well against the odds and picked up a few points along the way. I hope his testing role isn’t his swansong.

Piquet – Followed him in GP2, and he’s established himself as a talented driver. Will be watching him with anticipation this season.

Glock – Undoubtedly a great driver, but it depends more on Toyota’s progression this year. They’ve been lacking lately, and if they haven’t improved well enough then Glock could be another talent left in the lurch.

Kobayashi – Still young, has a bit to learn yet before he achieves his goal of becoming an F1 pilot. He’s made quick progress though, so he’s well on the way.

Barrichello – How the mighty have fallen. To be fair, it was more Honda’s fault than Barrichello’s. If they’re not back on track this year I fear we could lose him from the grid.

Wurz – Comeback last year was so-so. He can shine on occasions, but he’s never been a consistent driver. This is a problem he needs to address if he’s to consider another return.

Coulthard – All has been quiet on the Coul front lately, he’s not dropped back or made progress, but he’s quietly put in a decent effort. Not sure how long he’ll remain yet.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psychic Potato @ Mar 3 2008, 03:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My verdicts on these drivers:

Kobayashi – Still young, has a bit to learn yet before he achieves his goal of becoming an F1 pilot. He’s made quick progress though, so he’s well on the way.
Isn't he one of the usual suspects?

I think your thumbnail sketches of the field are pretty accurate. I think reining back the aero would have been more likely to increase overtaking than banning tc, although that may be a good idea too.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Feb 27 2008, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's amazing indeed. It show he's still good enough. For sure this is ''only'' testing, but I have no doubts he would still be a title contender. I dont agree that he's a ''cheating .......''. He did some controversial things in the past, true, but he isn't a cheating ........ He's one of the best ever...
Sorry I didn't see this post before. I am actually a huge schumacher fan, and saw his first race for ferrari live. I was attempting some humour in replying to yamacka 46, who I think from a previous discussion does consider schumacher to be something of a cheating ......., particularly with reference to his benetton days.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psychic Potato @ Mar 3 2008, 03:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Raikkonen - With a championship finally under his belt it isn't surprising to see him top the pre-season tests, he should translate these into race wins but with Alonso back at Renault he may be under even more pressure this year.

More pressure? How do you work that one out?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 3 2008, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry I didn't see this post before. I am actually a huge schumacher fan, and saw his first race for ferrari live. I was attempting some humour in replying to yamacka 46, who I think from a previous discussion does consider schumacher to be something of a cheating ......., particularly with reference to his benetton days.
The humour worked for me

Having said that, one of the reasons Schumacher's shenanigans on track used to annoy me is that if he had just driven fair and square in every race then the chances were very good that he'd win due to ability. It always seemed a shame that a man of his talent needed to cheapen his championships with dirty driving and rule infractions. In doing so, Schumacher, together with Ferrari, brought the sport into disrepute IMO.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/7273741.stm

Hmmm... Playstation eh?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Mar 3 2008, 10:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The humour worked for me

Having said that, one of the reasons Schumacher's shenanigans on track used to annoy me is that if he had just driven fair and square in every race then the chances were very good that he'd win due to ability. It always seemed a shame that a man of his talent needed to cheapen his championships with dirty driving and rule infractions. In doing so, Schumacher, together with Ferrari, brought the sport into disrepute IMO.
I think the 5 ferrari championships were actually won fair and square; the last lap pitstop was an exploitation of the rules but is something most of the other teams, and certainly ron dennis, would probably have done in the same circumstances had they thought of it. Some of the behaviour in the years before and after the 5 championships is harder to defend as you have pointed out previously.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 4 2008, 12:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the 5 ferrari championships were actually won fair and square; the last lap pitstop was an exploitation of the rules but is something most of the other teams, and certainly ron dennis, would probably have done in the same circumstances had they thought of it. Some of the behaviour in the years before and after the 5 championships is harder to defend as you have pointed out previously.

Yes, but it was ultimately their knack for discovering these loopholes wich played a key factor in their winning of the championships. In many cases they never needed to do it, either. Take Austria '02, for example, the decision to make Barrichello let Schu take the win was totally uncalled for, he would still have won the championship by a huge margin. They tried the same trick 3 years earlier with Salo/Irvine but that didn't pay off, so it may be why they tried it again.

I still think team orders exist in some roundabout form, I've heard drivers being nagged over the radio to let through their team-mate as they're lapping faster. I'll admit it's a bit of a grey area though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psychic Potato @ Mar 4 2008, 10:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, but it was ultimately their knack for discovering these loopholes wich played a key factor in their winning of the championships. In many cases they never needed to do it, either. Take Austria '02, for example, the decision to make Barrichello let Schu take the win was totally uncalled for, he would still have won the championship by a huge margin. They tried the same trick 3 years earlier with Salo/Irvine but that didn't pay off, so it may be why they tried it again.

I still think team orders exist in some roundabout form, I've heard drivers being nagged over the radio to let through their team-mate as they're lapping faster. I'll admit it's a bit of a grey area though.
I actually think the barichello pass is more easily defensible than the pitstop loophole. I was bemused at the time as there had always been team orders in most forms of motor racing whilst I had ever watched it. Ron dennis threw away a world championship last year by not having them, or not being able to make them. The fact that the man with the black hat, schumacher was involved and was up front about it was in my opinion the major cause of controversy. I think schumacher wanted to make it obvious that barichello deserved the win; it is very easy to arrange such things less obviously. As for massive margins, competitors are always one crash away from not winning a world championship until they have actually won; ask mick doohan.

People are very happy to critisize Ferrari and Schumacher for "cheating" all the time, but i find this illogical. If the team and driver to not push the boundary of every possible advantage then they are potentially given away an advantage, something which is foolish when trying to achieve the ultimate prize in motor-racing. Naturally when a boundary is pushed it will occasionally be overstepped and that is a risk that the driver/team takes, as they will have to deal with the consequences. The real issue is when the officials have made questionable decisions in favour of one team or another, and this of course should not be allowed. But surely the blame or complaint should be with the people allowing this to happen, the FIA needs to be looked at here, not the greatest driver/team combination in the histroy of the sport.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psychic Potato @ Mar 3 2008, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Raikkonen - With a championship finally under his belt it isn't surprising to see him top the pre-season tests, he should translate these into race wins but with Alonso back at Renault he may be under even more pressure this year.

2. Alonso – Renault weren’t as fast in 07 as they were before, so it might present a problem for the former world champion. I think he’ll manage, though, he has the talent to take the car to the top.
1. Why will there be more pressure on Kimi then? Do you think we'll see 05/06 all over again?? Or do you think with Nando away from Mclaren, they will focus more on Lewis, which will make it even harder for Kimi?? I don't really get what you mean. Could you explain it to me.

2. I'm not sure what to think of Renault. I do think they'll be stronger this season, and with Fernando back, they should do well. I read that FA said they were still too slow. I guess time will tell. I personally think FA will be able to challenge for wins, maybe not from the start on, but definitely after some races.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 3 2008, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry I didn't see this post before. I am actually a huge schumacher fan, and saw his first race for ferrari live. I was attempting some humour in replying to yamacka 46, who I think from a previous discussion does consider schumacher to be something of a cheating ......., particularly with reference to his benetton days.
Well I don't get that to be honest. When did Schumacher cheat?? Are people talking about the whole TC thing? Or about Adelaide 94?? Both maybe??
I do agree that Michael has done some controversial things in his F1 career, but I don't think he's a cheater. He always wanted to win, he never settled for less, and at occasions he did the ''wrong'' thing, but I don't think it makes him a cheater. He won his 7 titles because he was THE BEST one, and because he worked hard to achieve it. That's how I see it anyway.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psychic Potato @ Mar 4 2008, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, but it was ultimately their knack for discovering these loopholes wich played a key factor in their winning of the championships. In many cases they never needed to do it, either. Take Austria '02, for example, the decision to make Barrichello let Schu take the win was totally uncalled for, he would still have won the championship by a huge margin. They tried the same trick 3 years earlier with Salo/Irvine but that didn't pay off, so it may be why they tried it again.
Yes, definitely.
Ferrari didn't need to do that. It was unnecessary for sure. Michael would have won the title either way. Ferrari was too strong that season, so I never really understood it. I guess they wanted to seal the deal asap at all cost..but yeah, I agree, they didn't need to do it.

I can understand why they use team orders though. Of course it would be ideal for the fans to see two drivers battle it out till the end, and see who's stronger without the team interfering, but we have to look at it from their point of view as well. They (the team) want to win the title, and if, on some occasions, they need team orders to get it done, they will do it. Not only Ferrari..also other teams.

I meant that Kimi may be under more pressure as a result of Alonso's switch back to Renault. Having a championship winning driver back at Renault may likely prove an extra threat to Ferrari's constuctor title defence, which will put Kimi under more pressure to keep ahead of the pack. I attempted to expand on this on Alonso, as I think he'll be able to perform to a high ability even if Renault have fallen behind for a while. But you were spot on, though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 4 2008, 12:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the 5 ferrari championships were actually won fair and square; the last lap pitstop was an exploitation of the rules but is something most of the other teams, and certainly ron dennis, would probably have done in the same circumstances had they thought of it. Some of the behaviour in the years before and after the 5 championships is harder to defend as you have pointed out previously.
Not just thinking of the Silverstone drive through, nor whether his Ferrari championships were "deserved". As I said, he almost always had the talent to make the difference - no need for underhandedness.

Was more thinking of things such as the 1996 Barcelona race in the rain where you could hear the TC (outlawed at that time) on the telly, or the Ferrari attitude to Irvine after Schuey stacked it at Silverstone in 99 - when else have you seen a team come out for a tyre change with only three new wheels. AFAICT Ferrari wanted their huge cost signing to be the one to win the WC for them. Also the occasions where Schuey's team mate deliberately slowed to allow him more points. This has not been within the spirit of the rules for many years (since you had to drive the same car from the start to the finish, rather than nick your team-mates car if yours failed as was done back in the 60s), but only Ferrari managed to require this type of "team orders" to be dealt with within the rule book.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 4 2008, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I actually think the barichello pass is more easily defensible than the pitstop loophole. I was bemused at the time as there had always been team orders in most forms of motor racing whilst I had ever watched it. Ron dennis threw away a world championship last year by not having them, or not being able to make them.
Sadly, the corollary to your argument is that you would never get two drivers capable of winning the world championship in the same team - or one is forcibly convinced that they are not "capable".

Only having had one lead driver would have lead to the 1988 season being a complete walkover by either Prost or Senna (arguably two of the very best drivers in F1 that season) - between them they won 15 of the 16 races, partially because the McLaren MP4 was so dominant. Because McLaren have always maintained the concept of equal machinery for both drivers, that season was a cracker. If Spoonface or Alonso had been at McLaren then and had their demands to be no1 driver met, then that season would have been a damp squib as no other marque was capable of challenging.

Team orders may have been sensible when a team had F-all cash (in todays terms) and could only afford one decent driver - this meant that the second car was effectively a backup car in case the car of the main driver failed. But this was only the case when F1 was a "gentleman racer" game, not to be confused with today's offering.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Mar 5 2008, 01:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sadly, the corollary to your argument is that you would never get two drivers capable of winning the world championship in the same team - or one is forcibly convinced that they are not "capable".

Only having had one lead driver would have lead to the 1988 season being a complete walkover by either Prost or Senna (arguably two of the very best drivers in F1 that season) - between them they won 15 of the 16 races, partially because the McLaren MP4 was so dominant. Because McLaren have always maintained the concept of equal machinery for both drivers, that season was a cracker. If Spoonface or Alonso had been at McLaren then and had their demands to be no1 driver met, then that season would have been a damp squib as no other marque was capable of challenging.

Team orders may have been sensible when a team had F-all cash (in todays terms) and could only afford one decent driver - this meant that the second car was effectively a backup car in case the car of the main driver failed. But this was only the case when F1 was a "gentleman racer" game, not to be confused with today's offering.
I did consider 1988 when I posted; this was a different situation because there was no threat from a driver from another team, and either prost or senna but only them could win, in which case it should of course be open slather short of the drivers taking each other out. That said I don't think frank williams had team orders even in the heyday of williams; I don't remember carlos reutemann and alan jones being very co-operative as team-mates .
EDIT I looked it up ; reutemann was apparently given team orders and disobeyed them earlier in the 1981 season, jones then said he wouldn't help him in the last race at las vegas.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 5 2008, 02:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I did consider 1988 when I posted; this was a different situation because there was no threat from a driver from another team, and either prost or senna but only them could win, in which case it should of course be open slather short of the drivers taking each other out. That said I don't think frank williams had team orders even in the heyday of williams; I don't remember carlos reutemann and alan jones being very co-operative as team-mates .
Slightly confused as your last post included the following:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm)<div class='quotemain'>there had always been team orders in most forms of motor racing whilst I had ever watched it. Ron dennis threw away a world championship last year by not having them, or not being able to make them.
So why was 88 different. If Dennis had had a no1 driver McLaren would have won. If he had done the same in 2007 they would possibly also have won. If Ferrari had signed Spoonface and Alonso at the same time, who would have won.....