Formula 1 2008

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Mar 5 2008, 02:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Slightly confused as your last post included the following:

So why was 88 different. If Dennis had had a no1 driver McLaren would have won. If he had done the same in 2007 they would possibly also have won. If Ferrari had signed Spoonface and Alonso at the same time, who would have won.....
In 1988 it was fairly clear from early in the season that mclaren was going to win whether or not they had team orders, or even if one of their drivers had an accident, hence there was no need to consider team orders whether or not ron was so inclined. I think team orders in the latter part of the season would pretty definitely have ensured a mclaren driver's championship last year, although hamilton should have won anyway. They have spent a lot of money since their last one in 1998. I am not defending alonso who I don't really like, although he is an excellent driver.

As you imply, maybe ron is the last of the true sportsmen.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psychic Potato @ Mar 5 2008, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I meant that Kimi may be under more pressure as a result of Alonso's switch back to Renault. Having a championship winning driver back at Renault may likely prove an extra threat to Ferrari's constuctor title defence, which will put Kimi under more pressure to keep ahead of the pack. I attempted to expand on this on Alonso, as I think he'll be able to perform to a high ability even if Renault have fallen behind for a while. But you were spot on, though.
That depends on how strong Renault will be. In testing they didn't look strong, BUT of course that's only testing, so we'll have to wait and see. Let's say renault will be strong, then Fernando will most likely be a title contender, but I don't think that will make Kimi feel ''more pressure''.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Mar 5 2008, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not just thinking of the Silverstone drive through, nor whether his Ferrari championships were "deserved". As I said, he almost always had the talent to make the difference - no need for underhandedness.

Was more thinking of things such as the 1996 Barcelona race in the rain where you could hear the TC (outlawed at that time) on the telly, or the Ferrari attitude to Irvine after Schuey stacked it at Silverstone in 99 - when else have you seen a team come out for a tyre change with only three new wheels. AFAICT Ferrari wanted their huge cost signing to be the one to win the WC for them. Also the occasions where Schuey's team mate deliberately slowed to allow him more points. This has not been within the spirit of the rules for many years (since you had to drive the same car from the start to the finish, rather than nick your team-mates car if yours failed as was done back in the 60s), but only Ferrari managed to require this type of "team orders" to be dealt with within the rule book.
I don't think so. That's ridiculous!!
Ferrari wanted to win the title that season, whether it was Irvine or MS didn't matter. Obviously MS couldn't win it anymore, but when he came back at the end of the season he DID help Irvine in..I think it was Malaysia..to win the title. He blocked the Mclaren drivers and drove a very good race to help Irvine. Mika just did a very good job that season, and Irvine simply wasn't champion's material. Had Michael not crashed in Silverstone, he would have had 8 titles without any doubt (but that's not the point).
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 5 2008, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That depends on how strong Renault will be. In testing they didn't look strong, BUT of course that's only testing, so we'll have to wait and see. Let's say renault will be strong, then Fernando will most likely be a title contender, but I don't think that will make Kimi feel ''more pressure''.

Yeah, you're right. Kimi's far too cool to simply crack like that. Only thing that stopped him in the past was an unreliable car, so he's more or less sorted for this year. If I'm wrong about Renault bouncing bach with Alonso, I reckon it'll still be a four car race between the Ferrari and McLarens if Kovalainen's up to the task.

That said, I did tip Massa for the title last year and had it rather wrong, so don't hold me to that.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psychic Potato @ Mar 5 2008, 05:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, you're right. Kimi's far too cool to simply crack like that. Only thing that stopped him in the past was an unreliable car, so he's more or less sorted for this year. If I'm wrong about Renault bouncing bach with Alonso, I reckon it'll still be a four car race between the Ferrari and McLarens if Kovalainen's up to the task.

That said, I did tip Massa for the title last year and had it rather wrong, so don't hold me to that.

I wont..you weren't the only one who thought that!! Massa is a very good driver imo, and he will do a good job again this season, but so will Kimi. It's gonna be a nice battle to watch. You would think Raikkonen will have more confidence now, after winning the WDC. So he'll probably have a better start to the season than he had in 2007.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 5 2008, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think so. That's ridiculous!!
Ferrari wanted to win the title that season, whether it was Irvine or MS didn't matter. Obviously MS couldn't win it anymore, but when he came back at the end of the season he DID help Irvine in..I think it was Malaysia..to win the title. He blocked the Mclaren drivers and drove a very good race to help Irvine. Mika just did a very good job that season, and Irvine simply wasn't champion's material. Had Michael not crashed in Silverstone, he would have had 8 titles without any doubt (but that's not the point).
As ridiculous as the chances that the longest serving team in the paddock forgot that F1 cars have 4 wheels at a crucial race? There are two pit crew per wheel - they were both asleep/brain-dead? Over time you see genuine fuckups repeated by other teams - not tightening wheel nuts, dropping wheel nuts etc, but I've yet to see anyone else think an F1 car has only 3 wheels. Without the 28 second delay "looking for the wheel", Irvine would have placed 4th and Hakkinen 6th, rather than Hakkinen being 5th and Irvine 7th. This would have left Irvine in the lead of the WC by 2 pts rather then behind by 2 pts. How on earth can you say that Irvine "simply wasn't championship material" - even after the fiasco he was 2nd, behind Hakkinen by only 2 points.

BTW, I was blaming Ferrari for this, not MS.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Mar 5 2008, 11:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As ridiculous as the chances that the longest serving team in the paddock forgot that F1 cars have 4 wheels at a crucial race? There are two pit crew per wheel - they were both asleep/brain-dead? Over time you see genuine fuckups repeated by other teams - not tightening wheel nuts, dropping wheel nuts etc, but I've yet to see anyone else think an F1 car has only 3 wheels. Without the 28 second delay "looking for the wheel", Irvine would have placed 4th and Hakkinen 6th, rather than Hakkinen being 5th and Irvine 7th. This would have left Irvine in the lead of the WC by 2 pts rather then behind by 2 pts. How on earth can you say that Irvine "simply wasn't championship material" - even after the fiasco he was 2nd, behind Hakkinen by only 2 points.

BTW, I was blaming Ferrari for this, not MS.

1. Irvine did a good job at Ferrari, no question about it, but he was never champion's material. He ended in 2nd place because he obviously did a good job that year, BUT more importantly he was driving the best car. So yeah, he did a good job, but he had the best car, and he still lost out. Schumacher would have won without a doubt. So yeah, Irvine was good..but IMO he was never champion's material, HIS car was champion's material. I don't want to downgrade his achievements, because he did do a good job, BUT If HE was champion's material another top team would have hired him. Just look at his achievements at Ferrari (other than 99). I don't think it was that impressive. Michael finished 3rd in 96 and Eddie finished 10th, in 97 MS was excluded from the WDC, but he challenged for the title all season, while Eddie finished 7th. So no..imo, he never was champion's material.

2. I know you were blaming Ferrari for this, but do you really think they would want to wait another year (or years) to clinch the title??? I don't believe this..maybe Ferrari did some weird stuff in the past, but I really don't think they would just let someone else win, just so that ''golden boy'' MS could take the first title after so many years. I'm not buying it, they are more professional than that. They are there to win, not to lose on purpose..but you can have your opinion of course. I just don't share it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 6 2008, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Irvine did a good job at Ferrari, no question about it, but he was never champion's material. He ended in 2nd place because he obviously did a good job that year, BUT more importantly he was driving the best car. So yeah, he did a good job, but he had the best car, and he still lost out. Schumacher would have won without a doubt. So yeah, Irvine was good..but IMO he was never champion's material, HIS car was champion's material. I don't want to downgrade his achievements, because he did do a good job, BUT If HE was champion's material another top team would have hired him. Just look at his achievements at Ferrari (other than 99). I don't think it was that impressive. Michael finished 3rd in 96 and Eddie finished 10th, in 97 MS was excluded from the WDC, but he challenged for the title all season, while Eddie finished 7th. So no..imo, he never was champion's material.

2. I know you were blaming Ferrari for this, but do you really think they would want to wait another year (or years) to clinch the title??? I don't believe this..maybe Ferrari did some weird stuff in the past, but I really don't think they would just let someone else win, just so that ''golden boy'' MS could take the first title after so many years. I'm not buying it, they are more professional than that. They are there to win, not to lose on purpose..but you can have your opinion of course. I just don't share it.
I repect yamaka's opinion on most things, but I am more with you on this. I wouldn't say Irvine wasn't championship material, he was a fast enough driver but my view at the time was that the events of that season demonstrated schumacher's car development ability, which his worst detractors would have to admit was close to unparalleled, and which ferrari are still employing. Irvine was right on the pace before schumacher's crash, gradually dropped of front-running pace, then returned to that pace when ms came back and developed the car again. I also recall ms blocking for eddie in at least one race. I do recall some sentiment that he could have come back earlier; there was a story that he returned to soccer playing before he returned to ferrari driving.

Another aspect of schumacher's career is that despite his austere reputation he was always loved by his crew, and his pit crew was always the best in F1 at both benetton and ferrari. After each win the first thing he always did was acknowledge and thank his crew. I remember an article close to the time in which it was said that despite eddie outwardly appearing to be more affable he didn't inspire the same devotion in his crew. This doesn't excuse losing a wheel of course.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 5 2008, 11:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Irvine did a good job at Ferrari, no question about it, but he was never champion's material. He ended in 2nd place because he obviously did a good job that year, BUT more importantly he was driving the best car. So yeah, he did a good job, but he had the best car, and he still lost out. Schumacher would have won without a doubt. So yeah, Irvine was good..but IMO he was never champion's material, HIS car was champion's material. I don't want to downgrade his achievements, because he did do a good job, BUT If HE was champion's material another top team would have hired him. Just look at his achievements at Ferrari (other than 99). I don't think it was that impressive. Michael finished 3rd in 96 and Eddie finished 10th, in 97 MS was excluded from the WDC, but he challenged for the title all season, while Eddie finished 7th. So no..imo, he never was champion's material.

2. I know you were blaming Ferrari for this, but do you really think they would want to wait another year (or years) to clinch the title??? I don't believe this..maybe Ferrari did some weird stuff in the past, but I really don't think they would just let someone else win, just so that ''golden boy'' MS could take the first title after so many years. I'm not buying it, they are more professional than that. They are there to win, not to lose on purpose..but you can have your opinion of course. I just don't share it.
1. If the wheel debacle had not happened then Irvine would have won the 99 season by 2 pts. As far as improving season on season, that's fairly normal in F1. Also the Ferrari wasn't the best car out there in 96, 97 or 98 and used to break down a lot - Irvine retired 10 times in 96 and whilst I'm sure a couple were crashes, I do remember the Ferrari being very unreliable. MS just got lucky that it was more often his team mate's car that failed than his. Irvine only retired 6 times in 97, 3 times in 98 and once in 99. I think this may have affected his championship standings in those years more than a little.

2. Maybe as well as having the fact that he must be the number one driver written in his contract, it also said that he (MS) must be the one to end Ferraris WC drought.
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Whatever happen, the wheel incident was very bizzarre, to say the least.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 6 2008, 12:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I repect yamaka's opinion on most things, but I am more with you on this. I wouldn't say Irvine wasn't championship material, he was a fast enough driver but my view at the time was that the events of that season demonstrated schumacher's car development ability, which his worst detractors would have to admit was close to unparalleled, and which ferrari are still employing. Irvine was right on the pace before schumacher's crash, gradually dropped of front-running pace, then returned to that pace when ms came back and developed the car again. I also recall ms blocking for eddie in at least one race. I do recall some sentiment that he could have come back earlier; there was a story that he returned to soccer playing before he returned to ferrari driving.

Another aspect of schumacher's career is that despite his austere reputation he was always loved by his crew, and his pit crew was always the best in F1 at both benetton and ferrari. After each win the first thing he always did was acknowledge and thank his crew. I remember an article close to the time in which it was said that despite eddie outwardly appearing to be more affable he didn't inspire the same devotion in his crew. This doesn't excuse losing a wheel of course.
1. I understand what you're saying, but being ''a fast enough driver'' isn't all you need to be champion's material. Eddie definitely did a good job at ferrari, but he never stood a chance with MS, and that wasn't because he was supposedly the 2nd driver, MS was simply better (but I guess we all know that). It's also hard to judge who's champion's material, because all drivers who are in F1 can obviously drive well and they have reason to be there..add to that that the driver in question has the best car on the grid (Eddie in 99) then its not strange to see him almost take the title. That's just how F1 works.

2. Very very true. He loved his crew, and his crew loved him even more. He was always gracious towards them and he never said negative things about them. IMO that makes him even a greater champ. He had this ability to make the crew even more motivated, and that's why he achieved so much in his career (not by cheating as some may claim).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Mar 6 2008, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. If the wheel debacle had not happened then Irvine would have won the 99 season by 2 pts. As far as improving season on season, that's fairly normal in F1. Also the Ferrari wasn't the best car out there in 96, 97 or 98 and used to break down a lot - Irvine retired 10 times in 96 and whilst I'm sure a couple were crashes, I do remember the Ferrari being very unreliable. MS just got lucky that it was more often his team mate's car that failed than his. Irvine only retired 6 times in 97, 3 times in 98 and once in 99. I think this may have affected his championship standings in those years more than a little.

2. Maybe as well as having the fact that he must be the number one driver written in his contract, it also said that he (MS) must be the one to end Ferraris WC drought.
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Whatever happen, the wheel incident was very bizzarre, to say the least.
1. Yes, Ferrari wasn't the best team those years. 96 was a disaster..yet MS managed to win 3 races and end 3rd in the standings. I actually think those years showed how good MS was. Other ''average'' drivers wouldn't be able to pull it off, but a great champ like him could. In 97 they got better and better as the season progressed, but still Williams had the best car, and not by a small margin!! 98 was a McLaren year, winning both titles.

2. It WAS bizarre. No question about it..I still can't really believe it
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But no matter how bizarre it was, I can't believe they'd actually jeopardized their chances of clinching the title.

All this F1 talking makes me wanna watch them race.
Only a week now!!!
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I think he's staying on just to see Lewis' success. He's brought him all the way through the ranks, I doubt he'd want to abandon ship now when he's probably going to win the title in the next two or three years.

He looks young, but he goes back along way, I remember a while back reading to my suprise that he worked as a mechanic on Rindt's car at Cooper in the 60's. So he's no spring chicken
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 11 2008, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think he's staying on just to see Lewis' success. He's brought him all the way through the ranks, I doubt he'd want to abandon ship now when he's probably going to win the title in the next two or three years.
Yes, I think so too. If it wasn't for Lewis he might have decided to leave.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 11 2008, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He looks young, but he goes back along way, I remember a while back reading to my suprise that he worked as a mechanic on Rindt's car at Cooper in the 60's. So he's no spring chicken
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Apparently not..I guess it's not Ron anymore, but ''grandpa Ron''
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 11 2008, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>btw, had no idea he was already 60
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he looked younger to me.

he looked younger in the 2006 season...then he looked older so drastically last year, esp when the drivers rift and the spy sagaa broke out..then, seeing his recent photos, he aged again...stress can take its toll so much and so fast
 
Just a quick note to UK viewers, we can watch the practice sessions on itv-f1.com now!
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I'm staying up, sleep can wait
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 13 2008, 06:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just a quick note to UK viewers, we can watch the practice sessions on itv-f1.com now!
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I'm staying up, sleep can wait
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Only the UK viewers???
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What about me then? I will probably watch the live timing somewhere, or maybe look for a stream. OMG, I'm sooooo excited...bring it onnnnnn!!!!!!!!
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 13 2008, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Only the UK viewers???
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What about me then? I will probably watch the live timing somewhere, or maybe look for a stream. OMG, I'm sooooo excited...bring it onnnnnn!!!!!!!!
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You might be able to watch the itv one with a UK proxy, but I'm not sure. Theres usually a few channels on sopcast or TVU that broadcast practice sessions, but it might be in another language.I'll see what I can find.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 13 2008, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You might be able to watch the itv one with a UK proxy, but I'm not sure. Theres usually a few channels on sopcast or TVU that broadcast practice sessions, but it might be in another language.I'll see what I can find.
Oh ok..
Erm..proxy???
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I have no idea what you're talking about..I just wanna watch it
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Go to www.proxy.org and use on of the British proxies on there and it might work. I read somewhere that RTL are streaming them on their site too, but I think that was Germany, not Holland.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 13 2008, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Go to www.proxy.org and use on of the British proxies on there and it might work. I read somewhere that RTL are streaming them on their site too, but I think that was Germany, not Holland.
Ok, thanks, I will do that then
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Let's hope it will work!!! Yeah RTL is probably the German one!
 
One bad side though, you'll have to listen to James Allen. Which is a tad like listening to a ten-year old schoolboy with a crush
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