Forget Bayliss vs. Rossi, who wants to see Spies vs. Rossi?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 18 2009, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>who knows and who care's. Where the .... did you guess those times. down to the 10,000th sec

now back to rock sueing peeps. Hey jumkie, you think i could slander rock and get extradited to the usa in time for Laguna. free flights


I thought the same thing! I mean yeah 1.3425? I'd be interested to know why he didn't go with 1.34.24 or 1.34.23...


As far as extradition, well we can certainly try buddy. But here is the thing, its only "slander" if it’s NOT true! You're going to need to be very creative in calling him derogatory terms and finding that you have to prove they do NOT characterize him, as you are well aware. Now if you call him say a "genius" or "smart" or "knowledgeable" than yes, you would be 'MIScharacterizing' him for sure; however, I don't think that is a sue able offense.

Mat Mladin on Spies
"People have asked me how I thought he was going to go this year -- I been asked that a lot the past few months once they started testing and his name started popping up at the top of the timesheets. And I've said he's going to win the world championship with two rounds to spare. They all look at me like I'm full of crap and there's no chance, but we'll see…"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 17 2009, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When a 3 time winner says you're great, you're great. When you win 3 of 4 races on tracks you've never raced, vs the championship runner up, you're great. You win a championship in your rookie year, you're great Just cause you move on to 'greater' greatness, doesn't diminish your greatness!
Also, Spies will be in WSBK in 2010 because he won't have won the championship by silly season 2009.


With respects, if your allotting of greatness is as described then most riders will be great in your eyes?

Greatness comes from consistent high level performances across the longevity of your career, not from one or two individual performances over a very short period of time. Certainly a rider can put in 'great' performances but that does not make the rider great and IMO Spies has not done enough at World level yet to be considered a great (I can feel the flame now )

You have also lost me a little with you 'just because you move on comment' but if you mean that just because he was great in AMA thence he will always be great then to a degree that is correct. If he was a great in one category he will alwyas be considered a great of that category, but it does not mean that he will be a great in the new category of the sport as a whole, and (IMO) nor should it.

Rossi is a great, Hailwood is a great. Roberts Sr, Rainey, Doohan, Lawson, Schwantz are greats. They achieved at the highest level of their chosen sport and achieved consistently, Spies has not .................... yet.

As for your judgement that winning races at tracks where you have not ridden before has to make one a great, well correct me by all means but didn't one Troy Bayliss win the last two races of his career at a track he had never ridden at?







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 18 2009, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mat Mladin on Spies
"People have asked me how I thought he was going to go this year -- I been asked that a lot the past few months once they started testing and his name started popping up at the top of the timesheets. And I've said he's going to win the world championship with two rounds to spare. They all look at me like I'm full of crap and there's no chance, but we'll see…"



I like Mladin (sorry everyone) simjply because he is an Aussi who calls it as he sees it, but you have to look at the comment in full context.

First, Spies had beaten Mladin for the last few years and goes to WSBK.

If Spies becomes a mid pack rider (we know the current results so don't worry yet), then where does that leave Mladin?

It makes him look ordinary.

If Spies wins the World Title and wins it as Mladin suggests (2 rounds to go) it makes Mladin look a damn genius in two ways. One, that he made the bold prediction and two the questions then start to arise about how good is Mladin given that Spies who only just beat Mladin has 'obliterated' the World riders.

I have no doubt that Mladin is a smart man and believes that Spies will win or at worst finish top 3 so why not come out with such a prediction. This sport revolves around ego and all have it in varying degrees and all need constant reinforcement as to how good they actually are on the bike. What better way than to say that you adversary who has only just scored more points will obliterate the next category to which they choose. On other words, Ben can do it that easily so undoubtedly so could I?







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Mar 18 2009, 09:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As for your judgement that winning races at tracks where you have not ridden before has to make one a great, well correct me by all means but didn't one Troy Bayliss win the last two races of his career at a track he had never ridden at?
Nobody else had ever ridden at Portimao and Troy was no rookie. If Spies beats Haga and the rest at one of the most raced World circuits (Valencia) then how could he not be great? The others have 10 years of experience on the track. See this speedTV report for a better rationalization http://www.speedtv.com/article_print_view/951451

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Mar 18 2009, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I like Mladin (sorry everyone) simjply because he is an Aussi who calls it as he sees it, but you have to look at the comment in full context.

First, Spies had beaten Mladin for the last few years and goes to WSBK.

If Spies becomes a mid pack rider (we know the current results so don't worry yet), then where does that leave Mladin?

It makes him look ordinary.

If Spies wins the World Title and wins it as Mladin suggests (2 rounds to go) it makes Mladin look a damn genius in two ways. One, that he made the bold prediction and two the questions then start to arise about how good is Mladin given that Spies who only just beat Mladin has 'obliterated' the World riders.

I have no doubt that Mladin is a smart man and believes that Spies will win or at worst finish top 3 so why not come out with such a prediction. This sport revolves around ego and all have it in varying degrees and all need constant reinforcement as to how good they actually are on the bike. What better way than to say that you adversary who has only just scored more points will obliterate the next category to which they choose. On other words, Ben can do it that easily so undoubtedly so could I?

Garry

Maladin has raced and been around racing his whole life. He has also raced against many of the people now in superbike. He knows Spies and his capabilities and what he can achieve on a Superbike. He applies this logic to an unbiased decision and comes out with Spies will win with two rounds to go. He not saying this as fact, he is saying this as a prediction. Also, if he thought that Spies would struggle then he would make it known because he doesn't like him. One thing is for sure, he is not surprised to see spies name at the top.

Apply all the logic you want. Then go watch on raceday and make your own conclusions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 18 2009, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nobody else had ever ridden at Portimao and Troy was no rookie. If Spies beats Haga and the rest at one of the most raced World circuits (Valencia) then how could he not be great? The others have 10 years of experience on the track. See this speedTV report for a better rationalization http://www.speedtv.com/article_print_view/951451


IMO a person is not and cannot be a great in any category (in this case of WSBK) after 6 races. I will readily agree that the performances are fantastic, sublime, call them what you want and yes they may well be great performances, but that does not make him a WSBK great yet.

Your point that Bayliss had years of experience before winning the last two races at the new circuit is still (IMO again) not valid where you then rate Spies so highly for winning at circuits where he has no experience. Bayliss did not have any race experience on that bike, in that category on that circuit so was flying as 'blind' as Spies is and will be, yet you seem to not rate Bayliss' efforts as high.

I think to date that Spies has been exceptional and as I have said in another thread somewhere it is his all round efforts from testing through to his speed at learning the tracks and onto his race craft that has been impressive. He has won three from four so far and I don't see others stepping up to challenge the top there yet (Spies, Haga, Biaggi), although there will be some performances throughout the European season. The jury is not out on whether he should be there, but I woudl say that the jury is still out on whether he is a WSBK great.

And again I woudl say that I will be very surprised if he is in WSBK in 2010 as I fully expect him in MotoGP on a Yamaha.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Mar 18 2009, 10:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maladin has raced and been around racing his whole life. He has also raced against many of the people now in superbike. He knows Spies and his capabilities and what he can achieve on a Superbike. He applies this logic to an unbiased decision and comes out with Spies will win with two rounds to go. He not saying this as fact, he is saying this as a prediction. Also, if he thought that Spies would struggle then he would make it known because he doesn't like him. One thing is for sure, he is not surprised to see spies name at the top.

Apply all the logic you want. Then go watch on raceday and make your own conclusions.



I have.

Mladin has a large ego, he wants it known that he is the best and if the person that beat him last year can smash the World field, then Mladin (by extension) could well be considered as likely to have done the same thing.

Nowhere do I think that Mladin is making this bold prediction simply for 'lip service' and I have no doubt that he genuinely beleives it to be the likely scenario based on his knowledge of Spies. But he also has little or no knowledge of the other riders in contention in the championship to use as a cross reference point







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Mar 18 2009, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Bayliss did not have any race experience on that bike, in that category on that circuit so was flying as 'blind' as Spies is and will be, yet you seem to not rate Bayliss' efforts as high.

Nowhere do I think that Mladin is making this bold prediction simply for 'lip service' and I have no doubt that he genuinely beleives it to be the likely scenario based on his knowledge of Spies. But he also has little or no knowledge of the other riders in contention in the championship to use as a cross reference point

And again I woudl say that I will be very surprised if he is in WSBK in 2010 as I fully expect him in MotoGP on a Yamaha.
Bayliss had no race experience on the 1098 before Portimao?
Mladin has little or no knowledge of the other riders in contention?
Ben will agree to leave a world series before a confirmed championship win, to then be no better than the 4 best rider after crushing in AMA for 2 more years after a title win? On a satelite Yamaha?
Are we even watching the same sport?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 18 2009, 06:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>

I thought the same thing! I mean yeah 1.3425? I'd be interested to know why he didn't go with 1.34.24 or 1.34.23...


As far as extradition, well we can certainly try buddy. But here is the thing, its only "slander" if it’s NOT true! You're going to need to be very creative in calling him derogatory terms and finding that you have to prove they do NOT characterize him, as you are well aware. Now if you call him say a "genius" or "smart" or "knowledgeable" than yes, you would be 'MIScharacterizing' him for sure; however, I don't think that is a sue able offense.


I love this place!

What will the wind speed be at Qatar at 9.30 AM on race day?

What will the track temperature be on the 8th minute of first qualifying?

Or to be really picky, is Hopper .... or .....?

Pete

I have friends that are lawyers you know........................

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 18 2009, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ben will agree to leave a world series before a confirmed championship win, to then be no better than the 4 best rider after crushing in AMA for 2 more years after a title win? On a satelite Yamaha?
Are we even watching the same sport?
He seems a cool customer and does not necessarily go the most travelled route with these decisions ie knocking back the opportunity to substitute for capirossi when he was injured last year, possibly knocking back a factory suzuki motogp ride for this year.

I think he has enough confidence if he is ahead or well in contention to sign up for motogp without having confirmed the wsbk championship. It is rumoured on another site that he has a performance based contract that gets him into motogp next year. It is also not impossible that a factory yamaha ride might become available next year, and what he does next year may also be influenced by what yamaha want him to do. Imo if he is not in motogp next year it will only be because he does not see a motogp championship as the ultimate achievement.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 18 2009, 07:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Imo if he is not in motogp next year it will only be because he does not see a motogp championship as the ultimate achievement.

Or maybe he'll just wait around in world superbike til rossi leaves or he gets a ride w/ full factor support, so he can actually have a possibility of winning

...and by full factory support i dont mean suzuki, unless sukuki can prove that they have what it takes this season

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 18 2009, 11:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Imo if he is not in motogp next year it will only be because he does not see a motogp championship as the ultimate achievement.
Suzuki low balled him, he had major US commitments, and the race was looking to be wet.
He's still young and has plenty of time to challenge for the MotoGP title. Yamaha wants to shine in WSBK and need him. CE wont' go back to SBK and has at least 2 seasons in him. JT will get his .... sorted and his passport is helpful.

Maybe Hopper could replace him Spies 2010? I think Ben is patient and his mother is strategic. 2011 is more probable as Rossi may be retired.

Why go just to compete with Rossi and Stoner and Hayden and Lorenzo and Pedrosa and Capirossi and Vermulen and Dovizioso and Elias? At least let one of them leave!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 18 2009, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Bayliss had no race experience on the 1098 before Portimao?

My full quote was on that bike in that category on that circuit and that is a 100% fact. I do not say that Bayliss hd no race experience on the 1098 as we know that is BS.

He had not raced the 1098 in WSBK on that circuit, just as Spies has not raced the R1 on PI or at Qatar or at any of the WSBK circuits.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 18 2009, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mladin has little or no knowledge of the other riders in contention?

Mladin has not raced against Biaggi, Haga etc so cannot judge them within that level (WSBK) of competition. He has raced against some former world WSBK champions (Hodgson)


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 18 2009, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ben will agree to leave a world series before a confirmed championship win, to then be no better than the 4 best rider after crushing in AMA for 2 more years after a title win? On a satelite Yamaha?

You assume that he will be on the satellite Yamaha with no factory support.

I expect that he will either be #2 in Fiat to replace Lorenzo who it is rumored wants to be #1 in a team in 2010 (and IMO after two years he should be aiming that way).

When Spies first signed with Yamaha it was stated (reported) that his contract was for 2 years with Yamaha with the first year WSBK, no mention was made of year 2.

Besides, with Yamaha being very competitive in MotoGP throughout 2008 and expected to be as competitive in 2009 he would graduate to a very respectable package should he go the Yamaha route. Nowhere is it stated that he will leave WSBK mid-2009 to go to MotoGP.

Why would he not sign to go MotoGP prior to winning a WSBK title if MotoGP is where he wants to be and a worthwhile competitive ride is offered?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 18 2009, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are we even watching the same sport?

I dare say we are, just that I may not be as blinded by potential or country allegiances as your appear to be (IMO).






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Mar 19 2009, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why go just to compete with Rossi and Stoner and Hayden and Lorenzo and Pedrosa and Capirossi and Vermulen and Dovizioso and Elias? At least let one of them leave!


Interesting assumption and somewhat against the grain of what many have said of Spies which is that he is super competitive.

EDIT in Italics:
Hadn't thought of that possibility though either as IMO it isn't what I woudl expect of a competitive racer and personally, Spies doesn't strike me as being concerned enough to consider it (ie. he wants to race the best)


I would expect that he would would all top runners in the category in which he was competing as then it removes the 'if X was here he wouldnt win' type of commentary that does appear (and will continue time immemorial).







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Mar 19 2009, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You assume that he will be on the satellite Yamaha with no factory support.

I expect that he will either be #2 in Fiat to replace Lorenzo who it is rumored wants to be #1 in a team in 2010 (and IMO after two years he should be aiming that way).

According to crashnet repsol honda have just declared their complete faith in dani and that they will stick with him as long as it takes. This must make lorenzo going to hrc as lead rider next year almost a certainty .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 19 2009, 01:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>According to crashnet repsol honda have just declared their complete faith in dani and that they will stick with him as long as it takes. This must make lorenzo going to hrc as lead rider next year almost a certainty .

Its waht generally happens.

Someone comes out and expresses their full support and faith in teh current rider/coach/manager and within a short time that rider/coach/manager joins the unemployment queue.

But I did and do find teh Respol comments very interesting and timely (suspect the injury has a lot to do with it)





Gaz

he'll be kinda old by then for starting in moto-gp





<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Mar 15 2009, 05:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wait a minute, didnt they race last season? Come to think of it didn't Rossi race Bayliss in GP already?


Give Spies some time on a Super, he's looking good, and lets not forget, he's doing it on a 1000cc four, not a 1200. I think the guy has a very bright future, and once he's got the WSBK title, he'll move to GP, and be worth watching.

Pete

re ama s-bike - you are forgetting that spies and mladin wre the only 2 riders on anything like worksbikes - he's good, but let's not crown him just yet - there's still a lot of season to get through. the last ama champ who moved to moto-gp isn't exactly a superstar either


quote name='michaelm' date='Mar 18 2009, 06:51 PM' post='180251']
He seems a cool customer and does not necessarily go the most travelled route with these decisions ie knocking back the opportunity to substitute for capirossi when he was injured last year, possibly knocking back a factory suzuki motogp ride for this year.

I think he has enough confidence if he is ahead or well in contention to sign up for motogp without having confirmed the wsbk championship. It is rumoured on another site that he has a performance based contract that gets him into motogp next year. It is also not impossible that a factory yamaha ride might become available next year, and what he does next year may also be influenced by what yamaha want him to do. Imo if he is not in motogp next year it will only be because he does not see a motogp championship as the ultimate achievement.
[/quote]