FINALLY CONFIRMED!! Ducati Welcome Lorenzo
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I am sure you are entirely correct about the Ducati side of things as you almost always are, and a previous regime tried to get Lorenzo there before eventually procuring Rossi as well.
Your version of events at Yamaha is rather more open to dispute imo, but I don't deny having prejudice myself, I am just differently prejudiced than you are. It is hard to see favouring a 37 year old rider who last won a title in 2009 over the defending world champion, and winner of their last 3 titles over the last 6 seasons, as a racing decision, and they very definitely backed Rosdi over the events of last season whilst condemning Lorenzo to the extent of not acknowledging his title for not much more than a thumbs down gesture.
The proof will be in the pudding, but as I have said elsewhere it will imo require Rossi either winning a title during his remaining tenure or him successfully mentoring, and actively riding to aid, a Lorenzo replacement to a title to justify Yamaha's choices. As I have also said, I consider the latter to be even more unlikely than the former.
Actually I do not think Yamaha "chose" Rossi over Lorenzo. Lin Jarvis is not mad. I think they have miscalculated thinking that Lorenzo would not leave them and his trusted M1, after all. Surprise...!
Now Yamaha have to hurry up and sign someone important, especially for the future. Vinales remains the most likely candidate, he could be ready to bring the fight to Marquez sooner than some people think. Anyway, beating Marquez is going to be difficult for anybody.
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Agreed on the first part ...... but they needed to offer Lorenzo bucketloads more money something having Rossi about would be dificult to do.
I dont get the whole Vinales hype ...... he never seems that good a rider to me.
Call me stupid if you like, but yes, I believe if you are Yamaha and have won 3 of the last 6 titles including the most recent one your aspirations should be to win titles rather than finish second.
My post actually said that Yamaha's choices would be justified if VR successfully mentored the next Yamaha world champion, so yes I had actually considered that was their plan. My doubts concern whether he is capable of doing so, my opinion, and my opinion only, being that he is too self obsessed for such a role, particularly as a team-mate but probably even as a team manager. Sports history is replete with great sportsmen in a variety of sports who have proved to be poor coaches. I am also not convinced the next Yamaha title winner is currently available to be signed for next year.
The one other factor could be that Yamaha have assessed that Jorge is incapable of leading the direction of their bike, something which Valentino obviously has been able to do and it would appear still can. In that case I can see some justification for going with Valentino, and for him being annoyed if this is so that he is substantially responsible for a bike on which Jorge can beat others and him, although a team approach would seem advisable in this particular sport when you are 37 and competing against a 23 year old MM. As I have said in this and the previous post if he adopts a team approach successfully for the remainder of his contract(s) I will consider Yamaha justified, but I will believe that when I see it.
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Come on guys..what is this "mentoring" BS about? Rossi is going to mentor some young hot shot to beat him while he is still racing? Not gonna happen. Not when he has another chance for another title if Lorenzo sucks at Ducati in 2017-2018. I agree with j4rno. Yamaha just miscalculated the whole thing. They thought by offering Lorenzo a great contract(as they claimed) and a best bike on the grid, Lorenzo wouldn't leave. But he did.
I think they miscalculated as well, thinking he would stay for the winning chance for good money, although he may well be getting more money at Ducati. I am sure more money from Ducati was not why he left, and if he did leave because he wanted more money or status than Rossi then he is quite likely repeating Rossi's mistake.
My point was that the only way Jarvis et al can come out of this looking good is if Rossi wins a title or helps his team-mate win one, and also agree he is not very likely to do the latter as I said. I don't think the way they treated Jorge after his championship win in any way represented equal treatment however, unless you think they wouldn't have recognised a Rossi title either.
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Lorenzo left because Yamaha mismanaged, miscalculated, and failed to sanction Rossi who is a ruthless prick which created a toxic environment and a mockery of the principles of competition; and worse, that of human decency.
I happen to know a kid who is an AMA racer and is sponsored by Lorenzo, who has spent plenty of time around Jorge, and every time I've heard him and his father speak of Lorenzo, I've come away with a sense that Lorenzo is a genuine down to earth honest person any one of us would want to associate ourselves with. Unpretentious and humble. That isn't popular in our society of reality TV stars and over the top artists and celebrities. Who here would stay at a job where your supervisor favored or never had the courage to chastise the owner's son who is a complete .......? Which members here would stay at such a work environment? I doubt any of us would.
Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)
I happen to know a kid who is an AMA racer and is sponsored by Lorenzo, who has spent plenty of time around Jorge, and every time I've heard him and his father speak of Lorenzo, I've come away with a sense that Lorenzo is a genuine down to earth honest person any one of us would want to associate ourselves with. Unpretentious and humble. That isn't popular in our society of reality TV stars and over the top artists and celebrities. Who here would stay at a job where your supervisor favored or never had the courage to chastise the owner's son who is a complete .......? Which members here would stay at such a work environment? I doubt any of us would.
Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)
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I'm sure if Lorenzo came out and told the truth he would say he never wanted to leave Yamaha and wouldn't have done so if they hadn't signed Rossi for another 2 seasons after this one,at the end of the day, who wants to work in a toxic environment where your teammate is worshipped more than you regardless of whether he delivers the title or not? and can get away with .... that no other rider can solely because he is the worlds most popular rider among the masses,Jarvis talks about equal treatment but he knows who is the goose who lays the golden eggs.
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J4rn0, you're wrong in regards to Rossi; and Lorenzo's treatment by Yamaha. Yamaha chose Rossi with their actions, very public actions! Can anybody here for a moment imagine a scenario where Yamaha would have canceled a championship celebration party for Valentino Rossi, imagine had he "won" the title at Valencia? Make no mistake, that decision to cancel was made by some human employee of Yamaha. Who? Give this person a name. Who has that kind of authority? Think about this for a moment.
Maybe you can get a "journalists" to ask this question at a press conference. It would have been great to ask Lin Jarvis today. 'Who ordered the cancelation of Jorge Lorenzo's championship celebration party? Explain in detail the rationale.' And, 'would they have done the same had Valentino Rossi emerged as the champion?'
Rossi and the Yellow Hordes would have rioted in the streets! And this is not an exaggeration. Rossi would have been the loudest voice, crying and whining about how he is disrespected. His protests would have reached the heavens. MotoGP revolves around Rossi, EVERYTHING in this sport revolves around one single man--this fact makes it tinged with a yellow .... stain.
Tell me J4rn0, can you imagine a universe where Yamaha would have canceled a Rossi championship party?! Can anybody imagine such a scenario?
You're the guy who went all CAP LOCKS ballistic because someone pointed out Rossi was inconsiderate of the fact his deliberate maneuver which resulted in a fellow competitor's crash could have resulted in injury or death like Valentino's own friend Marco Simoncelli. Why did you go ballistic? Was Simoncelli's death predictable? No. So why did you go ballistic with the suggestion? Despite being a mild version, are similar to many bopper out there. (Edit) I would as much get insight from a Muslim with a suicide vest about Islam. Manny boppers seem like religious fanatics disguise as moderate.
So, can you imagine Yamaha canceling a party for Rossi? It was a near possibility, had Jorge had a tire issue and been passed by both Hondas, or any other scenarios (les you forget 2006, Rossi came into the last race with a points lead, anything can happen). Rossi could have easily been "champ." Can you J4rn0 imagine Yamaha canceling a party to celebrate Rossi? .... no! (Edit) Every card carrying member of the Yellow Horde are similar minded religious extremists (at least in perception, obviously not violent). Many might seem normal, sound normal, look normal, seemingly put together words into sentences; but they're the type of individual that is susceptible to cults, of the type we sane people marvel at when we hear news reports of some religious extremists exposé like Heaven's Gate, or Jim Jones, or any number of extremism around the world.
Because only a person like a bopper, of which there are millions, could accept the events of Sepang and the events of Valencia and not be utterly disgusted at the brazen injustice; but quite the contrary, act as if the perpetrator was the victim. Rossi has gone ballistic and remains so until today (and his cult) over a mild penalty which deserved far more punishment, and just about everyone involved, from the fandom, to the cowardly incompetent media, to the paddock, former racers, commentators, and everything in between have failed to call out and take to task the Yellow Elephant in the room, to the contrary, they think he was wronged! Even today, they treated the press conference like it was Entertainment Tonight or Hollywood Minute, talking about Lorenzo's switch as if all this .... wasn't related to Rossi being an insufferable prick!
Does anybody think Lorenzo leaves Yamaha if Rossi doesn't exist? .... no. Yet this is the absolute primary reason he is leaving, everything else is tangentially related.
Edited: tried to soften up the harshness wilst still making my point. I'm sure I still sound like an ....... though.
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I highly doubt it. Lorenzo was hired in 2008 for the exact same reason, and the very first time he tried to forge a relationship with Rossi, he was told to .... off. Do you honestly believe with Vinales it would be any different?
No, no-one gets to test for a team before signing with them. Rossi secretly sat on a 2003 Yamaha in their garage before signing with them, but that's as far as most get.
Apologies if already posted - more 'supposition' from journalists
Analysis: Why Lorenzo will fare better than Rossi at Ducati
Valentino Rossi’s dalliance with Ducati may have been famously disastrous, but there’s good reason to think Jorge Lorenzo won’t experience similar difficulties when he joins the Italian squad in 2017.
Clearly, Ducati is a very different place now to when Rossi struggled to a meagre three podium finishes over the course of two seasons aboard a bike that proved infinitely tougher to tame than he had counted on.
Since Gigi Dall'Igna's arrival at the Bologna marque in time for the 2014 season however, the team has been on a steady upward curve – to the stage where that first race victory since the Casey Stoner era now feels like an inevitability rather than some vague distant hope.
Indeed, the strong performances of the two Andreas, Dovizioso and Iannone, so far in 2016 will have surely played a part in Lorenzo's momentous decision to end his long-standing Yamaha partnership in favour of a spell in red overalls.
Another motivation could well be a desire to do what Rossi couldn't – win races and championships for Ducati – especially after the Italian eloquently opined in Qatar that his teammate's "balls" were of insufficient size to countenance such a move.
One man who knows all too well just what Ducati was like back then is Juan Martinez, who served as Nicky Hayden's crew chief during the US rider's Ducati tenure – which overlapped with Rossi's barren stint in 2011-12.
And the Spaniard explains just what made Rossi endure such a difficult time after his dizzying success at Yamaha in the years beforehand.
"If we look at the results, Valentino found a Ducati bike that had won three of the final five races of 2010," Martinez told Motorsport.com.
"From there it was a bike to which he couldn't adapt, and to which Ducati made a lot of changes.
"Conceptually it was also very different; it didn't have a perimetral chassis [the same type used by Yamaha and Honda] like now.
"The engine was very wide and it wasn't designed for this type of chassis, so when they started introducing the perimetral [version], ergonomically it became very hard to ride.
"Those changes led to the rider focussing more on modifying the bike rather than trying to understand it."
"Valentino's time was wasted"
The knock-on effect of the changes since effected by Dall'Igna is that Lorenzo will be able to focus on the job in hand – winning races and bringing Ducati its first world title since 2007 – instead of constantly grappling with a deficient bike, like Rossi was forced to.
Said Martinez: "It's important for the rider to understand that he doesn't need to do anything differently to what led to his titles: focus on being a rider, go as fast as possible and let the engineers do their work.
"This, in Valentino's time, was lost. He wasted energy, with the best of intentions, but without results.
"They used the rider for something more than what he had been hired for, which was riding the bike and not trying to be an engineer."
He added: "We have to wait to see if Lorenzo finds a bike that has never won or one that has won at least a race this year.
"The most important thing is that Lorenzo is convinced that the Ducati is his bike and that it can win."
Whether Lorenzo's gamble pays off is something only time will tell. But those who think the three-time premier class champion is going to end up with his tail between his legs like Rossi five years ago ought to think again.
Interview by German Garcia Casanova
Translated by Pablo Elizalde
Contains some interesting comments from Juan Martinez regarding the time of VR/JB at Ducati given some conversations we ahve in this place from time to time
Analysis: Why Lorenzo will fare better than Rossi at Ducati
Valentino Rossi’s dalliance with Ducati may have been famously disastrous, but there’s good reason to think Jorge Lorenzo won’t experience similar difficulties when he joins the Italian squad in 2017.
Clearly, Ducati is a very different place now to when Rossi struggled to a meagre three podium finishes over the course of two seasons aboard a bike that proved infinitely tougher to tame than he had counted on.
Since Gigi Dall'Igna's arrival at the Bologna marque in time for the 2014 season however, the team has been on a steady upward curve – to the stage where that first race victory since the Casey Stoner era now feels like an inevitability rather than some vague distant hope.
Indeed, the strong performances of the two Andreas, Dovizioso and Iannone, so far in 2016 will have surely played a part in Lorenzo's momentous decision to end his long-standing Yamaha partnership in favour of a spell in red overalls.
Another motivation could well be a desire to do what Rossi couldn't – win races and championships for Ducati – especially after the Italian eloquently opined in Qatar that his teammate's "balls" were of insufficient size to countenance such a move.
One man who knows all too well just what Ducati was like back then is Juan Martinez, who served as Nicky Hayden's crew chief during the US rider's Ducati tenure – which overlapped with Rossi's barren stint in 2011-12.
And the Spaniard explains just what made Rossi endure such a difficult time after his dizzying success at Yamaha in the years beforehand.
"If we look at the results, Valentino found a Ducati bike that had won three of the final five races of 2010," Martinez told Motorsport.com.
"From there it was a bike to which he couldn't adapt, and to which Ducati made a lot of changes.
"Conceptually it was also very different; it didn't have a perimetral chassis [the same type used by Yamaha and Honda] like now.
"The engine was very wide and it wasn't designed for this type of chassis, so when they started introducing the perimetral [version], ergonomically it became very hard to ride.
"Those changes led to the rider focussing more on modifying the bike rather than trying to understand it."
"Valentino's time was wasted"
The knock-on effect of the changes since effected by Dall'Igna is that Lorenzo will be able to focus on the job in hand – winning races and bringing Ducati its first world title since 2007 – instead of constantly grappling with a deficient bike, like Rossi was forced to.
Said Martinez: "It's important for the rider to understand that he doesn't need to do anything differently to what led to his titles: focus on being a rider, go as fast as possible and let the engineers do their work.
"This, in Valentino's time, was lost. He wasted energy, with the best of intentions, but without results.
"They used the rider for something more than what he had been hired for, which was riding the bike and not trying to be an engineer."
He added: "We have to wait to see if Lorenzo finds a bike that has never won or one that has won at least a race this year.
"The most important thing is that Lorenzo is convinced that the Ducati is his bike and that it can win."
Whether Lorenzo's gamble pays off is something only time will tell. But those who think the three-time premier class champion is going to end up with his tail between his legs like Rossi five years ago ought to think again.
Interview by German Garcia Casanova
Translated by Pablo Elizalde
Contains some interesting comments from Juan Martinez regarding the time of VR/JB at Ducati given some conversations we ahve in this place from time to time
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When Jarvis speaks of equal treatment, he refers to equal machines and updates, and direct support by the factory. Lorenzo also confirmed that Yamaha always gave him equal treatment. There's no doubt about that.
That's the technical side. The marketing aspect is a different one though, and it is there that Rossi has clout because of the huge following worldwide (which seems to make everybody so mad at him here). But that doesn't earn him any preferential technical treatment in the Yamaha garage.
Rather, it may have been important in earning him a renewal of his contract at 37, -- maybe as much as his good results in the last two seasons (which are equally important, and remarkable to anybody who cares to give a fair assessment of Rossi as a rider). Not many here, I know; that's why I apply TL;DR automatically to all boring Rossi-bashing (or Rossi-worshipping) rants. Life is too short for that kind of "debate". ;-)
This said, I have no doubt that someone at Yamaha might have been tempted to leave Rossi at home after the mediatic mess he created at the end of last season; but it also makes huge sense for them to try and keep him with the brand until the end of his career. Rossi helps in selling bikes, folks, and that's at least half of the reasons these corporations invest tens of millions every season in racing.
He helps selling TV contracts as well, and Dorna knows it and tries to keep him in the circus as long as it is useful for them. But at the end of the day Valentino Rossi the rider has to go out on the track on equal footing with his teammates and other factory riders, tame one of those bikes and win or lose on his own, risking his own .... That always deserves respect in my book.
The possibility of Valentino Rossi winning a 10th title was (and still is) very desirable not only for himself, but for his employers as well. There is no denying it. The mediatic and marketing return would have been enormous, no other rider could come close. But as much as it was desirable for him and Yamaha, for the same reasons it was (and is) very undesirable for his teammate, for Honda and for Marquez.
Life is not so easy even when you are the (aging) golden goose. Fame brings powerful friends but also powerful enemies. The sum may be zero. Amen.
That's the technical side. The marketing aspect is a different one though, and it is there that Rossi has clout because of the huge following worldwide (which seems to make everybody so mad at him here). But that doesn't earn him any preferential technical treatment in the Yamaha garage.
Rather, it may have been important in earning him a renewal of his contract at 37, -- maybe as much as his good results in the last two seasons (which are equally important, and remarkable to anybody who cares to give a fair assessment of Rossi as a rider). Not many here, I know; that's why I apply TL;DR automatically to all boring Rossi-bashing (or Rossi-worshipping) rants. Life is too short for that kind of "debate". ;-)
This said, I have no doubt that someone at Yamaha might have been tempted to leave Rossi at home after the mediatic mess he created at the end of last season; but it also makes huge sense for them to try and keep him with the brand until the end of his career. Rossi helps in selling bikes, folks, and that's at least half of the reasons these corporations invest tens of millions every season in racing.
He helps selling TV contracts as well, and Dorna knows it and tries to keep him in the circus as long as it is useful for them. But at the end of the day Valentino Rossi the rider has to go out on the track on equal footing with his teammates and other factory riders, tame one of those bikes and win or lose on his own, risking his own .... That always deserves respect in my book.
The possibility of Valentino Rossi winning a 10th title was (and still is) very desirable not only for himself, but for his employers as well. There is no denying it. The mediatic and marketing return would have been enormous, no other rider could come close. But as much as it was desirable for him and Yamaha, for the same reasons it was (and is) very undesirable for his teammate, for Honda and for Marquez.
Life is not so easy even when you are the (aging) golden goose. Fame brings powerful friends but also powerful enemies. The sum may be zero. Amen.
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It is here that I see a huge influence J4.
No doubt that if Rossi were to win a 10th, DORNA will make big dollars, but look at the merchandise including bikes that can then be sold as commemorative items for that 10th title.
I may well be wrong, may even be seen as a Rossi basher but my conspiratorial thoughts are that the lure of the 10th title has helped him secure the support for DORNA, Yamaha and the sundry sponsors that will all get a sensational ROI if/when it occurs (my mind says it will - in 2017, just that my conspiracy laden mind says that things will conspire to make sure of it)
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I've actually agreed with a lot of what you have said in the last few posts, and agree that Rossi's marketing ability is probably now a more influential factor than his riding ability to Yamaha. I mentioned in a thread some time ago that Rossi is now in effect a "Pay rider"
However, he has been shown to get preferential treatment in the garage the whole time he and Lorenzo have been team mates. Everything from keeping the wall up in 2009 to more recently, Yamaha cancelling most of their end of year celebrations last year to no upset Valentino Rossi, when they didn't care about upsetting or disrespecting the rider who had just won them the World Title.
That is preferential treatment, cut and dried.
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I have no problem recognising Rossi's achievements, and don't attribute them to advantages other than the same as those that riders of similar stature such as Mick Doohan had, and arguably earned, which has always been part of the game and not the result of any conspiracy, and by no means the particular province of Valentino Rossi.
What I believe, and you seem to deny, is that far from Valentino Rossi being demonised the major narrative of the last decade or two is basically every significant rival of his being demonised to a far greater extent, in which on the evidence of late season 2015 Valentino was far from an innocent and disinterested party.
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No doubt Rossi has been ruthlessly fighting all of his rivals by all means, but as end result of all that it's impossible not to see that the one being "demonized" now is just... him. You will call it payback, but if demonizing is something wrong, it shouldn't be justified in any case.
