Factory 2-MotoGP's newest category

JG251

3715421395280678

I'm a little confused. Did Ducati set there times at the last two test with the open ECU or there own?

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They set the times with the 2014 spec software, which essentially was their own software in spec disguise. Now, however, they don't even have to pretend to be using spec software, as the rules allow them to use proprietary code. 

JG251

3715421395280678

I'm a little confused. Did Ducati set there times at the last two test with the open ECU or there own?

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At Sepang there were cries of “conspiracy!” when Magneti Marelli

delivered a major new software upgrade to the Open teams, just days

before Dovizioso and Crutchlow were due to test the GP14 under Open spec

for the first time. And when both riders lapped very close to the

Factory-spec lap times, there were gasps up and down pit lane: wow, the

new software must be amazingly good.



 


But neither the Ducati riders nor any other Open riders used the 2014

software at Sepang. They had the new software loaded into their ECUs,

but only running in background mode, while the bikes were controlled by

the final version of the 2013 Open software.


 


Matt Oxley

povol

3715411395280175

Ducati is much more of a threat than they were, and if they become a real threat, they still get concessions that the factory teams dont


 


If Yamaha could switch to open at will, doesnt that mean Honda could as well.

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If Ducati becomes a real threat they'll have to compete under the standard factory rules eventually; one win or 2 second places or three podiums doesn't mean being a real threat to Honda; Honda bosses are on record saying they would never accept to compete under Open rules using the Open software. They love their rules and developing their own software.... Honda's idea is that they dictate the rules imposing an increasing level of technological sophistication, and the others have to play catch up.

I agree with Hondas philososphy, MotoGP is a technology race, those with the greatest ideas and engineering solutions should win, problem is this translates to those with the biggest bank balance mostly win.  

barbedwirebiker

3715461395300330

I agree with Hondas philososphy, MotoGP is a technology race, those with the greatest ideas and engineering solutions should win, problem is this translates to those with the biggest bank balance mostly win.  

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The rules Honda is imposing are not necessarily encouraging the best ideas and engineering solutions, -- a rule book is not excellent just because it requires excellence in engineering to be implemented.


5 engines, 20 liters, proprietary electronics of course pose tough challenges to engineers (and are exciting only for them), but are arbitrary conditions that automatically exclude other potentially great ideas and solutions that don't fit that bill. 


 


With less limitations we could have the same performance with lower costs -- you see, it all depends on our ideas about what technical excellence is.


Not to speak of the frequent changes in the rules and formula, which only serve the purpose of giving a huge advantage to the biggest and richest manufacturers, like Honda, while screwing all others and keeping potential newcomers away.


The only joy in all this is when all this scheming backfires on the schemers, as in 2007 with the 800cc formula.


But those are exceptions.

J4rn0

3715471395306467

The rules Honda is imposing are not necessarily encouraging the best ideas and engineering solutions, -- a rule book is not excellent just because it requires excellence in engineering to be implemented.


5 engines, 20 liters, proprietary electronics of course pose tough challenges to engineers (and are exciting only for them), but are arbitrary conditions that automatically exclude other potentially great ideas and solutions that don't fit that bill. 


 


With less limitations we could have the same performance with lower costs -- you see, it all depends on our ideas about what technical excellence is.


Not to speak of the frequent changes in the rules and formula, which only serve the purpose of giving a huge advantage to the biggest and richest manufacturers, like Honda, while screwing all others and keeping potential newcomers away.


The only joy in all this is when all this scheming backfires on the schemers, as in 2007 with the 800cc formula.


But those are exceptions.

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I totally agree, my point was lost in my delivery. Under the current closed in regulations Hondas cash reigns supreme.  I'm all for an open rulebook and see what comes of it. Minimalism in the regulations will encourage brand new solutions.  

povol

3715441395284884




 


But neither the Ducati riders nor any other Open riders used the 2014

software at Sepang. They had the new software loaded into their ECUs,

but only running in background mode, while the bikes were controlled by

the final version of the 2013 Open software.


 


Matt Oxley

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I stand corrected.

J4rn0

3715451395291518

If Ducati becomes a real threat they'll have to compete under the standard factory rules eventually; one win or 2 second places or three podiums doesn't mean being a real threat to Honda; Honda bosses are on record saying they would never accept to compete under Open rules using the Open software. They love their rules and developing their own software.... Honda's idea is that they dictate the rules imposing an increasing level of technological sophistication, and the others have to play catch up.

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Yep, they are on record, and if they mean what they say, next year will be their last in Moto GP. I guess when they start signing riders to new contracts, we will know their intentions if they only sign them for 1 year.

rezonator636

3715431395284243

They set the times with the 2014 spec software, which essentially was their own software in spec disguise. Now, however, they don't even have to pretend to be using spec software, as the rules allow them to use proprietary code. 

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Thx for the reply Rez and Pov! 

<span style="background-color:rgb(247,247,247);<span style="font-size:12px;Here is what I don't get about you Dr. Pov, you were so vocal about the "farce" of introducing artificial grid filler in the form of the CRT, as a contrived championship, prompting your infamous 'boycott of GP', yet today the wholesale rolling rulebook of "Open class" has become infinitely more of a charade, and you are swallowing it whole.  Why? What is your explanation for this being legit?


 


Still too chickenshit to answer Dr. Pov.  Perhaps you can asks your colleague Migs to help you with this one, to small brains might add up to one.  Maybe you could solicit Kropaganda for some help.  Btw, good timing on your Qatar even thread.  Its a good thing you opened it just moments before bikes were on track.  Otherwise you might have "proved" something or other.

Jumkie

3715711395376934

<span style="background-color:rgb(247,247,247);<span style="font-size:12px;Here is what I don't get about you Dr. Pov, you were so vocal about the "farce" of introducing artificial grid filler in the form of the CRT, as a contrived championship, prompting your infamous 'boycott of GP', yet today the wholesale rolling rulebook of "Open class" has become infinitely more of a charade, and you are swallowing it whole.  Why? What is your explanation for this being legit?


 


Still too chickenshit to answer Dr. Pov.  Perhaps you can asks your colleague Migs to help you with this one, to small brains might add up to one.  Maybe you could solicit Kropaganda for some help.  Btw, good timing on your Qatar even thread.  Its a good thing you opened it just moments before bikes were on track.  Otherwise you might have "proved" something or other.

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I choose not to talk to midgets when they are drunk.If you are sober now, i will answer. To start with, everyone who has been on this board  for more than a couple of years knows that  you are full of ...., that my threat  to boycott Moto GP was based on them eliminating factory teams to go to a full CRT grid. If i didnt have a reasonable expectation of seeing records broke, there was no reason for me to pay 1000 dollars for a GP weekend to see something i had seen years earlier.That did not happen I said it then, i will say it again today, IF MOTO GP TAKES A LEAP BACKWARDS IN PERFORMANCE < I WILL NOT SPEND MY HARD EARNED MONEY TO WATCH PERFORMANCE I PAID TO SEE 10 YEARS  AGO. I put  that in caps because you seem to be comprehension deficient. Hopefully, its the alchohol,  not that you are just that ....... stupid.Secondly, please show me in this thread where i have given any credence to the new rules, i dare you.

Interesting thread.


 


My gripe with Factory 2 is the same gripe I had with CRT--the tier system is unnecessary. The competitors can be consolidated into one seamless system, without need for arbitrary tier classification.


 


HRC are probably complicit in the rules revolution because they don't care about MotoGP any more. F1 has ratified decent rules, and Honda wants to play. Budget slashing in MotoGP is a good thing for them now.

F1 has become supremely boring, and MotoGP with 20 liters and 5 engines is (hopefully was?) on the same route. The hopeful note is because now, looking at the Open bikes doing better than expected in FP at Qatar, one wonders -- why on earth cannot all bikes race with the Open formula, so that we have 10 or more potential aspirants to the podium? CRT was crippled from birth, Open apparently isn't (or is only in Honda's own interpretation).

As most expected, Honda folded like a cheap tent on leaving GP


 


Livio Suppo


 


"One thing is to have a single software for everybody, frozen, which

means nobody can do anything. And this we were against. But another

thing is to have the single software for everybody, but with the

possibility for each manufacturer to continue developing it," Suppo told

the official MotoGP website.




"Of course this will mean that we will not have any more secrets, any

advantage in case you find something special. But we leave the door open

to the possibility to develop technology. This is what we always

insisted was the key point for Honda.




"Each manufacturer will be able to provide suggestions to develop things by himself, as far as he will share with the others."

hawkdriver

3714771394863854

Jum you could have said the same for the entire Rossi era according to some of you, never mind that he did for motogp what Jordan did for basketball. People were tuning in and enjoying the talent and competition, that's what fills the stands, same goes for all sports. CS could have had it the same way if he wasn't always so negative about everything. Bring on the next champ, besides we all know you have to be on a factory bike to win the championship right, so who cares what they call all the other bikes.

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I tend to think of Rossi more like the Hulk Hogan of motogp, he did for the sport what the great yellow lycra shod Hogan did for WWE. Both undoubtedly very popular with the kids.

Jordan actually quit basketball.

povol

3715751395400903

I choose not to talk to midgets when they are drunk.If you are sober now, i will answer. To start with, everyone who has been on this board  for more than a couple of years knows that  you are full of ...., that my threat  to boycott Moto GP was based on them eliminating factory teams to go to a full CRT grid. If i didnt have a reasonable expectation of seeing records broke, there was no reason for me to pay 1000 dollars for a GP weekend to see something i had seen years earlier.That did not happen I said it then, i will say it again today, IF MOTO GP TAKES A LEAP BACKWARDS IN PERFORMANCE < I WILL NOT SPEND MY HARD EARNED MONEY TO WATCH PERFORMANCE I PAID TO SEE 10 YEARS  AGO. I put  that in caps because you seem to be comprehension deficient. Hopefully, its the alchohol,  not that you are just that ....... stupid.Secondly, please show me in this thread where i have given any credence to the new rules, i dare you.

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Its what I like about you Pov, you keep me entertained.  I can see why you swallow Dorna's ........ rules whole, as you employ the same tactics of 'moving the goal posts".  Now revising your 'stand on principle' as you see fit to keep up with the times.  Look Pov, I'm not angry at you for remaining an avid fan of the sport even after your shallow protest that you were never going to honor.  Its clear we are both addicted to the sport, the difference is that I don't fool myself about it. I haven't stopped watching regardless of my awareness the outcomes are rigged by the regulations imposed.  I'm just saying at very least be honest about it and call the premiere class for what its become, a farce rather than carrying on like its all legit. Rather than revising your protest parameters every time I press you.  Pov, three categories in one, and four or five if you count the Honda proddies (hell the Ducs have their own shadow category) and the last residuals of CRTs (sitting in positions 19-23 after PF3) should be a recognized category too.  I see you qualified it by saying "new" rules, so the "old" (2 weeks ago) were credible then according to you.  The arbitrary rules (new and old) you love so much and use to justify your frowning over HRC (oops did you forget about that which you have repeated, no need for me to go searching for a quote) are the ones you consider legit.  We've had this conversation before Pov.  Your boycott was contingent on leaps forward in performance.  You think these arbitrary rules produce some absolute advancement of performance? These rules don't come from heaven like mana, yet you seem to think the arbitrary rules produce some devine pinnacle of achievement.  Newflash: these rules limit performance!  You don't get this do you. You seem to think they inherently create the ultimate performance.  This is the concept you keep missing, as the restrictions by design limit performance!  You are witnessing this reality on the track right now, but you don't detect or recognize it professor.  Why are the Open class prototypes challenging the Factory Option prototypes?  Its because the same prototypes have different arbitrary designations whereby some are restricted while the other is less restricted.  Do you understand the implications here?  Perhaps you hadn't realized it before, but for godsakes try and analyze what accounts for the performance on the track.  


 


Anyway Pov, I know you will never admit it and keep weaseling you way out of your ridiculous boycott, but if performance is your litmus test (at one time you said technology, but I guess you have taken Dorna's lead and changed your latest parameter) here is a fun fact. The best lap at the season opener was attained back in 2008, as was the circuit record. So you have failed to honor your boycott: 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013 to present; since the performance has not yet set a new record.  You see the predicament you put yourself in professor?  Lorenzo who set the best lap in 2008 is today circulating slower, this is a leap backwards professor.  Unless the records have been broken at every circuit at the latest possible occasion within reasonable conditions, then you have accepted a leap backward in performance professor.  It was not a leap forward as your boycott perimeters demand!


 


Oh, come on, I know you will redefine the parameters just like Dorna, you will need to expand the definitions of "leap forward" and "performance" etc., so you can commence weaseling, moving the goalposts, rationalizing, justifying your new stand on principle below:

J4rn0

3715471395306467

The rules Honda is imposing are not necessarily encouraging the best ideas and engineering solutions, -- a rule book is not excellent just because it requires excellence in engineering to be implemented.


5 engines, 20 liters, proprietary electronics of course pose tough challenges to engineers (and are exciting only for them), but are arbitrary conditions that automatically exclude other potentially great ideas and solutions that don't fit that bill. 


 


With less limitations we could have the same performance with lower costs -- you see, it all depends on our ideas about what technical excellence is.


Not to speak of the frequent changes in the rules and formula, which only serve the purpose of giving a huge advantage to the biggest and richest manufacturers, like Honda, while screwing all others and keeping potential newcomers away.


The only joy in all this is when all this scheming backfires on the schemers, as in 2007 with the 800cc formula.


But those are exceptions.

Click to expand...

 


Is what I've been trying to get Professor Povol to understand for years.  


 


Regarding the restrictions set by arbitrary regulation, the bandwagon that you are witnessing throughout the Net over Aleix Espargaro is devoid of proper analysis.  So is the notion of other Open teams being competitive with the "Factory Option" bikes because people are still filtering the lap times with the<u> old paradigm of CRT vs Factory.</u>  We are NOT witnessing CRTs vs Factory prototypes of old, we are witnessing: Factory Prototypes (restricted) vs Factory Prototypes (unrestricted).  The assumption that the Marelli standard ECU is unsophisticated was based on a faulty supposition.  The top 15 bikes today (with the exception of Nicky Hayden's butt slow production racer) were ALL Factory Prototype machines!  Aleix is basically on an M1 minus restrictions, so I'm supposed to be impressed that he is beating other M1s choked with restrictions, not to mention 3 days of testing? Make no mistake, the extra fuel is having its effect!  Rossi said today, its not just the extra sustained power and acceleration but the extra fuel seems to be positively effecting the bikes on the turns too (as if that hasn't become obvious).  And even then, Aleix will eventually be eclipsed as the factory option bikes still have better riders and will eventually dial in their electronics (or Dorna will introduced a new set of crisis management rigging rules).  The only non-Factory prototype in the top 15 was Hayden, amongst the restricted and unrestricted prototypes, if anything that was the performance of the day!  You want to compare apples with apples?  Put Nicky and Redding on a full factory spec prototype RCV THEN add 24L of fuel, unseal the engine, and add a nice extra tire allotment. You don't think Redding and Pol would resume battling as they did in Moto2? That is what Aleix is riding, but the Yamaha M1 version of such a scenario.  Oh but Honda would never dare to let that happen.  I'd even bet money they are considering lowering the performance of their own satellites to give their "factory" squad the advantage.  Its not like they haven't before, and its been document.


 


What would we say last year when Aleix would nip and beat "prototypes" (even though they were just Ducatis)?  We'd say, wow, a CRT beat a Factory Prototype today. (Ignoring even still that the ART was a defacto Aprilia factory bike, but regardless, our assumption was still, hey, a CRT beat a prototype).  Today that paradigm still exist, but its the proddies and CRTesk machines down the order below 15th vs the prototypes, of which the Forward Yamaha and all Ducatis are: proper and true Factory Prototypes with less restrictions than ever.

Aren't ALL "rules" by definition arbitrary?


 


Did the 'factories' not 'restrict' themselves?


 


The current schmoozle cannot be laid at any one set of feet.

Mick D

3715931395470709

Aren't ALL "rules" by definition arbitrary?


 


Did the 'factories' not 'restrict' themselves?


 


The current schmoozle cannot be laid at any one set of feet.

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I would lay blame at Carmelo's hind paws.  Everybody else can only lobby, he is 'The Decider'.  


 


(Yes, factories did 'shoot themselves on the foot; and restricted themselves by lobbying for less fuel.  Carmelo obliged the "cost saving" restrictions by codifying them into the rule book.  Then he changed it slightly two weeks ago.)

povol

3715851395445413

As most expected, Honda folded like a cheap tent on leaving GP


 


Livio Suppo


 


"One thing is to have a single software for everybody, frozen, which

means nobody can do anything. And this we were against. But another

thing is to have the single software for everybody, but with the

possibility for each manufacturer to continue developing it," Suppo told

the official MotoGP website.




"Of course this will mean that we will not have any more secrets, any

advantage in case you find something special. But we leave the door open

to the possibility to develop technology. This is what we always

insisted was the key point for Honda.




"Each manufacturer will be able to provide suggestions to develop things by himself, as far as he will share with the others."

Click to expand...

 


Yup, this is news! Although I'll believe it completely only when Nakamoto says it.


 


Anyway, really -- Honda will contribute to an Open Source MotoGP ECU? Hurrah!