Ducati GP9 Insight from Canepa

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Feb 28 2009, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>because like the over used and worn out cliche says, "power is nothing without control".

enough power to break traction of the tyre at max lean angle for a given situation (suspension setup etc) will usually result in
a) the rider backing off the gas to get the wheels back in line or
the back coming round and spinning up/highsiding...
exactly !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Feb 28 2009, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not a seasoned racer but TC is to help with the grip and perhaps make the throttle respons become/feel different so that you can apply as much torque to the rear tire as possible,as early as possible.Right?
So yes it cuts the power but hopefully only that power surplus that would make the rearwheel spin.
That's how i have understood it.
yup, thus making you quicker. is it only you BM that cant see this ?, laws of phisics my ..., wtf would you know about that .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Feb 28 2009, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And exactly what do you know about going fast? Traction control are not an advantage at the exit of the turn, you're right about that. But a very good TC will help riders big time around the apex at maximum lean angle. That's where you used to see who the men was. These days many are opening up the throttle so much earlier than they used to.
As for the exit it might never become better than manual throttle control but I wouldn't bet on it.

Clearley TC helps breaking (engine breaking management) which was the biggest change when the F1 cars banned TC, so the engine management does help on entry and apex speed, but the point I was making was in relation to corner exit and the fact that Casey is the only guy that can really 'ride' (term used to highlight caseys ability on the duke compared to the others' the duke out of a corner. If the Desmos TC was why he is fast then all the other riders on the Duke would be able to make it work (as it would really be the electronics making it work and not the rider) but they cant.

Also the TC still allows masses of wheel spin, for example at phillip island (2 seasons ago i think it was) Casey said that he was getting wheel spin over the start finish line (300kph) and also a balanced bike or a well set up bike is where both ends slide in unison, theses guys are just about getting wheel spin the whole lap. And they aim for a set up that allows 2 wheel drift (to an extent)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Mar 1 2009, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not a seasoned racer but TC is to help with the grip and perhaps make the throttle respons become/feel different so that you can apply as much torque to the rear tire as possible,as early as possible.Right?
So yes it cuts the power but hopefully only that power surplus that would make the rearwheel spin.
That's how i have understood it.

Thats right ....... but it does so by inhibiting power. But thats not faster, thats safer.

As I understand there would merely be a matrix of data built up from such parameters as acceleration, speed, lean( tilt lateral)( or even possibly centifugal force measured), possibly longitudinal tilt/force ( distinct from acceleration for eg. Wheelie control ). Given that I doubt that it would be usable for to rapid a reaction to control, and that the motorcycle tends to "approach" a loss of traction, one would think that any form of power cutting would be done at best as a quick cyclic prediction that an, algoritm based on the input parameters, was about to exceed what is set as a "safe" level of performance.

If the rider is:

twitchy, or over enthusiastic, with the throttle ...... he will be limitted by TC
twitchy, or over enthusiastic, with turning .......... " " "
twitchy, or over enthusiastic, with weight placement ....." " "


But if he accelerates well, leans well, and turns in well ....... the control system will not be seeing him as a "danger" and hence not limiting him ....... so then he will be as fast as he would if he had no TC whatsoever.

A team/rider who wants to be fast will gamble with safety, and set the limits of the algorithm as such.
A team that wants their costs to be less from equipment damage .... will set the limits low.
A rider who wants to just ride around safely would ask to have the limits to be set low ....... though I strongly doubt this has ever happened




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 1 2009, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yup, thus making you quicker. is it only you BM that cant see this ?, laws of phisics my ..., wtf would you know about that .

So making you slower makes you faster?

Typical Rog, reply.

I do know/have used quite a number of the laws of physics Rog.! ....( especially in linear motion, kinetic energy ( and translation of potential energy to kinetic too, I guess ), and some experience in radial motion and energy ...... that's how much I'd know Rog.! ...... care to set me a test?? ) I can supply you with a test for me ...... I wrote a few in years gone by whilst tutoring for 12 years for RMIT over here ) .

Unlike yourself, I havent ..... ( to quote Rog. in one of his sooky PM's ) ... " studied performance engineering at Kingston uni" ..... ( but I did like Bob Marley music a while ago ), ...... but I have got into the odd Electromechanical "thing" or two

Go for it Rog! ...... I'm up for a bit of a "dig out the old memories" ATM.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (is200 @ Mar 1 2009, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Clearley TC helps breaking (engine breaking management) which was the biggest change when the F1 cars banned TC,

I'm not sure thats TC, I think thats just general engine management. I was always under the impression that any form of TC or "TC based ABS" to assist with decelerating a GP bike would be downright dangerous, especially when riding 300mm from another guy doing say 250km/h

Engine management stuff creates a very predictable outcome for acceleration and decelleration of the engine.
TC creates a semi intelligent outcome that can affect acceleration dependent on variable and non-stable ( simillar to unpredictable but not quite ) parameters. ( Because of this it is usually only a "limit" operating system ).
So TC will ( hopefully should ) always be totally independent of any decelerating or braking that is performed by the rider ....... its just too dangerous to have an unpredictable amount of decelleration.

You don't need to get rid of Traction Control for good racing.
Everyone talks about how good the racing is in WSBK and SS, and all those bikes have Traction Control set up for racing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 25 2009, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In any case why do you bother to watch it if it ..... you?
Because unlike you we enjoy the hell out of MGP but do not believe the status quo is the best that the racing can be. We believe in moving forward and attempting to refine and hone the product. You like analogies - think Porsche 911 - you're still happy driving the whale tale turbo of the 80s and we've moved on to a current GT2.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (is200 @ Feb 27 2009, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Traction control works by cutting power...

You go faster by getting as much power down onto the track as possible.
Traction control does "work" by cutting power but the "result" is getting as much power down onto the track as possible. The coefficient of friction between tyre and asphalt is the limiting factor not the power available.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 1 2009, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I do know/have used quite a number of the laws of physics...
Apparently you forgot the one which would explain to you that there is a finite amount of grip available between tyre and asphalt and that at certain points on a race track current power available to a MGP bike exceeds the amount of grip available. The bike which can provide ample but not excessive power at these points will produce a faster lap. TC provides the means to consistently deliver optimal power. Another thought for ya... 500hp would not make a bike any faster where ideal grip is compromised.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2009, 01:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm pretty sure that violates the laws of physics ......... so how does that work then?Don't tell me, you've been a physicists for years & you've never...etc

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 1 2009, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thats right ....... but it does so by inhibiting power. But thats not faster, thats safer.

As I understand there would merely be a matrix of data built up from such parameters as acceleration, speed, lean( tilt lateral)( or even possibly centifugal force measured), possibly longitudinal tilt/force ( distinct from acceleration for eg. Wheelie control ). Given that I doubt that it would be usable for to rapid a reaction to control, and that the motorcycle tends to "approach" a loss of traction, one would think that any form of power cutting would be done at best as a quick cyclic prediction that an, algoritm based on the input parameters, was about to exceed what is set as a "safe" level of performance.

If the rider is:

twitchy, or over enthusiastic, with the throttle ...... he will be limitted by TC
twitchy, or over enthusiastic, with turning .......... " " "
twitchy, or over enthusiastic, with weight placement ....." " "


But if he accelerates well, leans well, and turns in well ....... the control system will not be seeing him as a "danger" and hence not limiting him ....... so then he will be as fast as he would if he had no TC whatsoever.

A team/rider who wants to be fast will gamble with safety, and set the limits of the algorithm as such.
A team that wants their costs to be less from equipment damage .... will set the limits low.
A rider who wants to just ride around safely would ask to have the limits to be set low ....... though I strongly doubt this has ever happened






So making you slower makes you faster?

Typical Rog, reply.

I do know/have used quite a number of the laws of physics Rog.! ....( especially in linear motion, kinetic energy ( and translation of potential energy to kinetic too, I guess ), and some experience in radial motion and energy ...... that's how much I'd know Rog.! ...... care to set me a test?? ) I can supply you with a test for me ...... I wrote a few in years gone by whilst tutoring for 12 years for RMIT over here ) .

Unlike yourself, I havent ..... ( to quote Rog. in one of his sooky PM's ) ... " studied performance engineering at Kingston uni" ..... ( but I did like Bob Marley music a while ago ), ...... but I have got into the odd Electromechanical "thing" or two

Go for it Rog! ...... I'm up for a bit of a "dig out the old memories" ATM.
you keep blowing your own trumpet berry, know one here takes you seriously. Like the time you told us you were an engineer for a company that designs and builds traction control hahaha. maybe the teaboy at most and your posts on the subject prove this. You can believe what you want, i have nothing to prove to a gimp like you.

getting back to your theory's on tc and speed. You now mention saftey. So you think Tc was introduced for saftey No it was for speed and faster lap times. obvious to most because we followed gp before the wizz kid electronics so have seen the changes unlike you who started in mid 07 in true fanboy style.
The day i agree with anything you say i will worry. go back to sweeping the streets and making the tea.

Oh hows the fishing ? i went friday night and was getting 1 whiting an hour, unbelievable for these parts lately. You sit on your ... dreaming, im a doer not a dreamer barry.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 1 2009, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>you keep blowing your own trumpet berry, know one here takes you seriously. Like the time you told us you were an engineer for a company that designs and builds traction control hahaha.


more fairy tales and ........

where did I ever say such a thing?

I think I know the bit that pissed you off though ..... ie. I said I worked at a lab, Rog. and helped a guy set up our gear ( he was hiring it ) to test the F50 gearbox controller/diff controller ........ and I did Rog. What have you done ..... apart from it looks like you caught a whiting

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Mar 1 2009, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Because unlike you we enjoy the hell out of MGP but do not believe the status quo is the best that the racing can be. We believe in moving forward and attempting to refine and hone the product. You like analogies - think Porsche 911 - you're still happy driving the whale tale turbo of the 80s and we've moved on to a current GT2.
Then why do you guys whinge about the way it is going? Why do you want to rewind the clock on it? ........ !


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Mar 1 2009, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Traction control does "work" by cutting power but the "result" is getting as much power down onto the track as possible. The coefficient of friction between tyre and asphalt is the limiting factor not the power available.

Just the Coefficient of friction between the road and tyre? That alone!? Theres a bit more to it than that

I still don't get why you think cutting power can make things faster ........ show me! ........ the only case it would make you faster would have been if you were about to crash and the TC stopped it.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Mar 1 2009, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Apparently you forgot the one which would explain to you that there is a finite amount of grip available between tyre and asphalt and that at certain points on a race track current power available to a MGP bike exceeds the amount of grip available. The bike which can provide ample but not excessive power at these points will produce a faster lap. TC provides the means to consistently deliver optimal power. Another thought for ya... 500hp would not make a bike any faster where ideal grip is compromised.
You are then also saying that every rider would be exactly the same in the corners then! .....

D'ah!! you didn't understand a thing I wrote! nor I suspect have any idea of what TC does/is intended to do.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goatboy @ Mar 1 2009, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't tell me, you've been a physicists for years & you've never...etc

No .... .... but many professions rely on physics

I was trained a Mechanical Engineer but worked mainly in electromechanical stuff. Testing and activities around testing in metrology ( there's a new one for you! go on Rog. I know you are thinking stars and meteors you better look that one up ). Most engineering pursuits don't have their basis in hospitality do they?

Barry, its just that we don't give a .... about your credentials, or lack thereof. We don't give a .... about what you have or have not done in the course of your vocation. We care about what you have written here, on this forum alone, and I gotta say it ain't impressive dude. Here's hoping your work associates are dumber than we are, 'cause there ain't many buyers here for your particular brand of know-it-all ........ delivered with an extra helping of obviously unjustified egotism, smugness and wannabe intellectualism.

Do I have to be polite and say IMHO after a rant like that?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 1 2009, 12:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Then why do you guys whinge about the way it is going? Why do you want to rewind the clock on it? ........ !

Just the Coefficient of friction between the road and tyre? That alone!? Theres a bit more to it than that

I still don't get why you think cutting power can make things faster ........ show me! ........ the only case it would make you faster would have been if you were about to crash and the TC stopped it.

You are then also saying that every rider would be exactly the same in the corners then! .....

D'ah!! you didn't understand a thing I wrote! nor I suspect have any idea of what TC does/is intended to do.
Where I agree with you is on the argument that tc/electronics uniquely benefit casey stoner; ducati may have been early adopters and definitely exploited the rules for the new formula (which they opposed) best in 2007, but as I have said before there are quite a large number of software engineers in the world and I am sure yamaha et al are well up with current technology by now; yamaha seem to manage quite well with electronics for their superbike with which I have no problem.

There has to be some limit though in my opinion or the rider will have no role at all; the logical extension of the track position aware stuff is to have the race engineers control the bikes from the pits.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Mar 1 2009, 11:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Barry, its just that we don't give a .... about your credentials, or lack thereof. We don't give a .... about what you have or have not done in the course of your vocation. We care about what you have written here, on this forum alone, and I gotta say it ain't impressive dude. Here's hoping your work associates are dumber than we are, 'cause there ain't many buyers here for your particular brand of know-it-all ........ delivered with an extra helping of obviously unjustified egotism, smugness and wannabe intellectualism.

Do I have to be polite and say IMHO after a rant like that?


I was just giving you facts ..... they don't fit the fairytale and out come the sooks

Don't read it if you don't want ...... or can't handle it

One more try,then I'm gonna give it a rest, dude.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 1 2009, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Then why do you guys whinge about the way it is going? Why do you want to rewind the clock on it? ........ !

Who is "you guys" - if you're replying to my post I clearly state a desire to move forward not backwards. There is no correlation between wanting to improve an already good product and whining (remember the 911 analogy?).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Just the Coefficient of friction between the road and tyre? That alone!? Theres a bit more to it than that

I still don't get why you think cutting power can make things faster ........ show me! ........ the only case it would make you faster would have been if you were about to crash and the TC stopped it.
You're even thicker than I thought - do you work for a family member by any chance?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>You are then also saying that every rider would be exactly the same in the corners then! .....
Man, you are truly denser than a lead weight, optimal power delivery is different for each bike and rider - your lack of understanding is phenomenal... nuff said.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 1 2009, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Where I agree with you is on the argument that tc/electronics uniquely benefit casey stoner; ducati may have been early adopters and definitely exploited the rules for the new formula (which they opposed) best in 2007, but as I have said before there are quite a large number of software engineers in the world and I am sure yamaha et al are well up with current technology by now; yamaha seem to manage quite well with electronics for their superbike with which I have no problem.

There has to be some limit though in my opinion or the rider will have no role at all; the logical extension of the track postion aware stuff is to have the race engineers control the bikes from the pits.

But as I tried to point out ..... there is already a limit. The team can chose to lessen the point at which TC will "safen" things up. If a rider is gutsy he will make sure they will raise the limit a bit.

There isn't much difference between that and twisting the throttle a bit more. The end result is .... if a rider is game then he will push the limits ...... its just that in this day and age ..... the limits are not just how much throttle, or how much brake or how late he brakes. These days the setup and equipment matter ...... just like they always have in MGP.

And I don't think TC benefits SToner by the way. How do you figure that?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 1 2009, 01:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And I don't think TC benefits SToner by the way. How do you figure that?
I may not have expressed it well, what I meant was that I agree with you that tc doesn't benefit stoner disproportionately, and that I think most probably have similar electronics now anyway.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Mar 1 2009, 11:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>One more try,then I'm gonna give it a rest, dude.

One more try at what!? you've given me absolutely no detail or argument, just sooked and got pissy with me ..... to the point I only understand you do not agree with what I wrote about.

If you want to try and convince me ...... put forward your explanation of how cutting power can possibly make you faster .... don't sook at me !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 2 2009, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I may not have expressed it well, what I meant was that I agree with you that tc doesn't benefit stoner disproportionately, and that I think most probably have similar electronics now anyway.

They have for years ..... indeed as we already discussed ad-nauseum .... Rossi was running the same Magnetti Marelli gear Stoner had in 07 ...... matter of fact he was the one who's image appears on their web page.