Ducati GP9 Insight from Canepa

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Feb 23 2009, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>LMAO
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nearly 20 years old and still looks ....... fast Thanks for posting

So am I to take it ..... that you say Stoner is "not the next Doohan"!!?? ..... but is in fact "the next Alain Prost"!!?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 24 2009, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner is in fact "the next Alain Prost"!!?

I totally agree.

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goatboy @ Feb 24 2009, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I totally agree.
I followed F1 very avidly at the time and I always thought prost was better than senna .

I am sure you are not drawing an analogy between prost v senna and stoner v rossi because stoner's stature in bike racing does not approach that of senna and prost in F1 and whilst I can hope is unlikely to, but rossi is undoubtedly of similar or greater stature. However, although ayrton was renowned for getting pole position alain has more fastest laps in actual races.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Feb 24 2009, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I followed F1 very avidly at the time and I always thought prost was better than senna .

I am sure you are not drawing an analogy between prost v senna and stoner v rossi because stoner's stature in bike racing does not approach that of senna and prost in F1 and whilst I can hope is unlikely to, but rossi is undoubtedly of similar or greater stature. However, although ayrton was renowned for getting pole position alain has more fastest laps in actual races.I didn't appreciate Prost's skill until after he retired, but I strongly disagree he was better than Senna. The main reason I take an interest in Rossi is because his style reminds me of Ayrton, that raw talent that can make your eyes come out on stalks upon occasion. Prost was way too clinical for me, they didn't call him "the professor" for nothing, he lacked feel, demonstrated by his "skill" (lack of) in the wet.

I make no other comparison between Prost & Stoner other than the way I personally feel about them while they were/are racing. & (touch wood) we have a long way to go before we can successfully judge Casey's place in history. However for me right now, he's a total Prost.

This is an excellent thread guys and a very good article from Canepa. I'm starting to like the guy already, I like a racer who knows what he's talking about technically. This thread has really got me thinking as well. didnt capirossi always have the bucking problem with the ducati, but on the 990 the exta power, let him power through it? i think because he was too 'trigger happy' was the reason he didnt gel with the 800, because he was getting the engine revving too high and coming into traction control's limit, hence slowing him down. but on the suzuki he doesn't get this as there is less power. anyone else see what i'm trying to say?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Feb 24 2009, 03:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I followed F1 very avidly at the time and I always thought prost was better than senna

.
I am sure you are not drawing an analogy between prost v senna and stoner v rossi because stoner's stature in bike racing does not approach that of senna and prost in F1 and whilst I can hope is unlikely to, but rossi is undoubtedly of similar or greater stature. However, although ayrton was renowned for getting pole position alain has more fastest laps in actual races.

Were you on medication during this time? You MUST be freakin' kidding me right michaelm? Please oh please tell me what you said was merely meant to be a joke?? You don't want to get me started when it comes to comparing someone like Prost to a racer like Senna. The name Prost shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Senna. Honestly, those that truely knows racing should know that Senna is in a league of his own.... Senna really is what legends are made of. You understand? You know how sometimes people tell stories of their hero's and it seems too unreal to be true? You know, like if one was to said a racer won a race driving with no freaking brakes???? or a driver winning a race with only 2 gears in his car?? WELL....guess what Michaelm, Ayrton Senna ACUTALLY did those things. Have a nice day.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Feb 24 2009, 09:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Were you on medication during this time? You MUST be freakin' kidding me right michaelm? Please oh please tell me what you said was merely meant to be a joke?? You don't want to get me started when it comes to comparing someone like Prost to a racer like Senna. The name Prost shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Senna. Honestly, those that truely knows racing should know that Senna is in a league of his own.... Senna really is what legends are made of. You understand? You know how sometimes people tell stories of their hero's and it seems too unreal to be true? You know, like if one was to said a racer won a race driving with no freaking brakes???? or a driver winning a race with only 2 gears in his car?? WELL....guess what Michaelm, Ayrton Senna ACUTALLY did those things. Have a nice day.You jive turkey.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Feb 24 2009, 03:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I followed F1 very avidly at the time and I always thought prost was better than senna

.
I am sure you are not drawing an analogy between prost v senna and stoner v rossi because stoner's stature in bike racing does not approach that of senna and prost in F1 and whilst I can hope is unlikely to, but rossi is undoubtedly of similar or greater stature. However, although ayrton was renowned for getting pole position alain has more fastest laps in actual races.

This one is for you Michaelm. Enjoy.

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Craig3089 @ Feb 24 2009, 10:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is an excellent thread guys and a very good article from Canepa. I'm starting to like the guy already, I like a racer who knows what he's talking about technically. This thread has really got me thinking as well. didnt capirossi always have the bucking problem with the ducati, but on the 990 the exta power, let him power through it? i think because he was too 'trigger happy' was the reason he didnt gel with the 800, because he was getting the engine revving too high and coming into traction control's limit, hence slowing him down. but on the suzuki he doesn't get this as there is less power. anyone else see what i'm trying to say?
Yes i do.
He also could ride the 990 like a 990 and the big size of that bike didn't seem to give him any problem.With the ducati 800 he had to ride it more like a 250 and keep the speed up everywhere,but it was too bulky for that.I'm not sure there is all that difference in torque or hp between the suzuki and ducati so that it would make that much difference in the way you ride it.But with a combination of a very different chassi maybe or a very big difference in powerdelivery.I'm just guessing.

By the way,what really got me interrested in Canepa's article is that he sais that you need to be smooth with the throttle,and not the other way around.I also believe that the way Stoner shifts the weight makes a big difference as have been said earlier in this thread.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goatboy @ Feb 24 2009, 07:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I didn't appreciate Prost's skill until after he retired, but I strongly disagree he was better than Senna. The main reason I take an interest in Rossi is because his style reminds me of Ayrton, that raw talent that can make your eyes come out on stalks upon occasion. Prost was way too clinical for me, they didn't call him "the professor" for nothing, he lacked feel, demonstrated by his "skill" (lack of) in the wet.

I make no other comparison between Prost & Stoner other than the way I personally feel about them while they were/are racing. & (touch wood) we have a long way to go before we can successfully judge Casey's place in history. However for me right now, he's a total Prost.
I was mainly having fun, as were you, which at least one other did not seem to realise. I actually like arguing by analogy. I did realise exactly what you were implying, that senna had and rossi has similar amazing raw talent, which is of course true. My point if there was one is that casey arguably showed some senna like characteristics in 2008 with the blazing pole laps, whilst rossi showed some prostian (?or post prostian ) characteristics in working out a way to be faster on race day.

I think rossi combines the best attributes of senna and prost in that he can be clinical as well. Prost's criticism of senna with which I agree to some extent was that he took too many risks, although I don't believe his ultimate demise was at all related to this.

To start my record skipping (from my, at this point, 1 other post) I would love to see Rossi see if he can get any of the Desmosedici 800's sorted as well as Stoner ever did. I think those Ducatis are just cantankerous evil brats that pay dividends if you are just the right brand of Motorcycling demi-god. The fact is, the motogp grid is populated by the 17 (it would be no large rhetorical feat to argue) best riders in the world, and to this day only ONE has gotten that thing to work. My experience at Laguna Seca 08 was a fantastic one, and the most interesting observation I made was the difference between the two (that day) front runners, and the also-rans. All the riders are god-damn quick, but Rossi and Stoner were gods, its like watching real-life magic. That extra .4 mph (or whatever) they corner at makes them look like they are going twice as fast. Done Groveling

On the issue of traction control, it is quite clear to me that it does not make you go faster directly, rather it is a small buffer zone at the end of the ragged edge of traction that must be ridden on to go fast. Stoner rides with perfect corner lines and consistency while straddling that elusive edge of grip, but once you go over that line, you are into the traction control zone, that helps you abstain from catapulting into the oblivion of high-side, but slows you down in the turn. What traction control REALLY helps with is allowing the rider just a smidgen more freedom/confidence to nudge right up to that line, maybe sniff the other side now and again, and maybe to save a couple bucks in carbon fiber fairings and brake discs along the way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MotoGpDylwah @ Feb 25 2009, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To start my record skipping (from my, at this point, 1 other post) I would love to see Rossi see if he can get any of the Desmosedici 800's sorted as well as Stoner ever did. I think those Ducatis are just cantankerous evil brats that pay dividends if you are just the right brand of Motorcycling demi-god. The fact is, the motogp grid is populated by the 17 (it would be no large rhetorical feat to argue) best riders in the world, and to this day only ONE has gotten that thing to work. My experience at Laguna Seca 08 was a fantastic one, and the most interesting observation I made was the difference between the two (that day) front runners, and the also-rans. All the riders are god-damn quick, but Rossi and Stoner were gods, its like watching real-life magic. That extra .4 mph (or whatever) they corner at makes them look like they are going twice as fast. Done Groveling

On the issue of traction control, it is quite clear to me that it does not make you go faster directly, rather it is a small buffer zone at the end of the ragged edge of traction that must be ridden on to go fast. Stoner rides with perfect corner lines and consistency while straddling that elusive edge of grip, but once you go over that line, you are into the traction control zone, that helps you abstain from catapulting into the oblivion of high-side, but slows you down in the turn. What traction control REALLY helps with is allowing the rider just a smidgen more freedom/confidence to nudge right up to that line, maybe sniff the other side now and again, and maybe to save a couple bucks in carbon fiber fairings and brake discs along the way.

Welcome dude.
I think you a re spot on re the TC situation.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MotoGpDylwah @ Feb 25 2009, 09:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>On the issue of traction control, it is quite clear to me that it does not make you go faster directly, rather it is a small buffer zone at the end of the ragged edge of traction that must be ridden on to go fast. Stoner rides with perfect corner lines and consistency while straddling that elusive edge of grip, but once you go over that line, you are into the traction control zone, that helps you abstain from catapulting into the oblivion of high-side, but slows you down in the turn. What traction control REALLY helps with is allowing the rider just a smidgen more freedom/confidence to nudge right up to that line, maybe sniff the other side now and again, and maybe to save a couple bucks in carbon fiber fairings and brake discs along the way.

Welcome to the form.
I largely agree with you, but you leave a question unaswered: Is this a positive thing?

I suspect this is an important part of the prosession racing these days. The riders make hardly any mistakes despite the fact that they are riding on the edge. As a result the race become very static, and boring.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Feb 25 2009, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I suspect this is an important part of the prosession racing these days. The riders make hardly any mistakes despite the fact that they are riding on the edge. As a result the race become very static, and boring.

I think the trouble is that some don't agree with this.

If the racing is so boring ...... why do you follow Mgp?

The riders still make lots of mistakes ...... do you have figures for comparitive no.s of mistakes for this mythical "best" bygone era? ( I put it to you that there may be more mistakes ...... especially in the riders below say posn. 3 .....?

Again all I can suggest is that if you( and I guess I mean collective you for all those who profess this to be the case) find the racing static and boring ...... why do you bother watching MGP if thats what you get out of it?

The procession argument is also stupid .... its a race ...... what you propose as a place swapping bar to bar event for every race is not what I ever remember of MGP. Its a rarity and its again subjective ( to personal taste ) as to whether its a good thing or not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 25 2009, 06:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the trouble is that some don't agree with this.

If the racing is so boring ...... why do you follow Mgp?

The riders still make lots of mistakes ...... do you have figures for comparitive no.s of mistakes for this mythical "best" bygone era? ( I put it to you that there may be more mistakes ...... especially in the riders below say posn. 3 .....?

Again all I can suggest is that if you( and I guess I mean collective you for all those who profess this to be the case) find the racing static and boring ...... why do you bother watching MGP if thats what you get out of it?

The procession argument is also stupid .... its a race ...... what you propose as a place swapping bar to bar event for every race is not what I ever remember of MGP. Its a rarity and its again subjective ( to personal taste ) as to whether its a good thing or not.

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Feb 26 2009, 12:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>6186ityTheFool.jpg]

And even moreso yourself ....... I'm enjoying the current MGP ........ you profess that its .... .... and yet you keep watching/following it .......

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 25 2009, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And even moreso yourself ....... I'm enjoying the current MGP ........ you profess that its .... .... and yet you keep watching/following it .......

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 25 2009, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The procession argument is also stupid .... its a race ...... what you propose as a place swapping bar to bar event for every race is not what I ever remember of MGP. Its a rarity and its again subjective ( to personal taste ) as to whether its a good thing or not.
who says that? what makes a race?
1 guy riding circles aint a race...
2 guys riding a circle with a mile between them, still aint a race...
18 riders riding circles with no position swaps is not a race... its a parade >.<

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slide @ Feb 26 2009, 12:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>who says that? what makes a race?
1 guy riding circles aint a race...
2 guys riding a circle with a mile between them, still aint a race...
18 riders riding circles with no position swaps is not a race... its a parade >.<

......... Its a race. You are whinging about the margin of the win ..... you want "closeness" .... watch that "anglo-roman wrestling" thats got a couple of blokes getting close with each other and swapping places

Was Usain Bolts runs in China a race? It was good to see the boring old record smashed in my book. Thats also what I like seeing in MGP.

In any case why do you bother to watch it if it ..... you?