Ducati GP9 Insight from Canepa

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Feb 21 2009, 01:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Shifting weight away from the rear would increase the loss of traction at the rear.


yes i was thinking the same thing and what everyone else would think BUT...... why is he leaning to the front so much if the rear needs more traction? maybe other riders are thinking like you and thats why they dont get the same result's.

him leaning forward to me seems like he knows something you and other riders dont know.

im saying there must be a reason for it, do you get where im going with this?

i respect your answer and would think the same myself but i really think he is sitting more forward and lettin the TC sort the rear while keeping the throttle open, notice how the bike is sideways and leaving black tyre mark?

what im saying is this defeats your point.... HE is gettin less tracion at the rear this would also explain why he prefers the hardest compound because he is always spinning it...

its hard to type what im thinking but i believe my theory is correct, please tell me someone knows what im trying to say?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Feb 21 2009, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>its hard to type what im thinking but i believe my theory is correct, please tell me someone knows what im trying to say?

I think I know exactly what you mean, and I think you have struck on a very good point ....... see my posts above ....... I think I kinda answered it for you?


I know with dirt riding if you are sliding around a corrugated corner, riding way up front is pretty essential as it seems to let the back drift in an erratic manner but doesn't effect you the rider much. Maybe Stoner remembers this and just sees the pumping as the same feeling as a corrugated dirt track.

I've tried to find an example of what we call a corrugated road this is the nearest thing I can find:

Not a great example but basically lets just say they feel the same as what they seem to be describing as "pumping" ....... and to take them around a corner you either have to slow down and track your way through ( veerrry slow or by going fast enough to ride the tops and drift the corners by by sitting on the tank ) we have a few miles of corrugated roads here so I'm a bit surprised I can't find a better example

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 21 2009, 01:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think you have a good point here ....... and Stoner neing an ex dirt rider it might explain part of it to.

I don't think its squirming any less .... but I know from dirt riding myself ...... if you want the back to flick around a bit it helps to get way forward and just let the back do its thing ...... and with sitting right forward it actually lightens the back and lets it squirm freely, but most importantly the effect of the back squirming, on the actual rider, is less the more you sit forward toward the front (which on the dirt one tries to think of as "the stable end"). Might also explain why Stoner is said to "complain" about the front ...... it is of paramount importance in such a riding style.


well im a ex motocross rider and can see exactly what stoner is doing by shifting his weight to the front, i have been riding since i was 8 years old and your correct about cornering... sit towards the tank and put ur leg towards the front of the bike so you can get around a corner much much quicker by letting the rear end come around on itself. but stoner uses his body instead of his leg.

gimme a GP9 and i willl demonstrate

I think Stoner my have a highly developed synapse combined with understanding of what makes a gp bike hook up. I read a piece the other day about Rock drummers are often maligned for being the dummies of the band because many have self destructive tendencies (ie Bohnum,Moon etc). But studies have shown that drummers, especially jazz drummers like buddy rich and charlie watts (kieth moon was a freak at this) have highly developed synapse for the electrical impulses to get to the muscle tissue like it does to keep time with both hands and feet. Very unique attribute.

Stoner has this: as he gets imput from the DUC he responds in nano seconds to keep the beast hooking up and throwing down the heat. Stoner is keeping time with the duc and making beautiful music.


JB

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Feb 21 2009, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well im a ex motocross rider and can see exactly what stoner is doing by shifting his weight to the front, i have been riding since i was 8 years old and your correct about cornering... sit towards the tank and put ur leg towards the front of the bike so you can get around a corner much much quicker by letting the rear end come around on itself. but stoner uses his body instead of his leg.

Yes but I think he takes it a step further, I know they are a bit of an australian "phenomena" but driving/riding a corrugated dirt road is more like I was thinking ..... they are like millions of whoopdees about say up to 100mm height and say 600mm to 1m wavelength And they can go for hundreds of km's). On roads/tracks with them you go nuts if drive too slow, so you have to increase you speed to find the most smooth ride. The hard bit is slowing cos you know you have to pass through that speed that nearly shakes you apart ( in a car everything ends up on the floor )

But anyway yes riding the tank is the cure ...... but I've still seen guys have the back overtake the front even on a straight section

Maybe Ducati should send there other riders out here and ride a few hundred Km's on a few of out lovely roads here

The body positioning is interesting especially when you compare Stoner to Hayden. Haydens butt looks stuck to the seat of that Honda.

I think the secret though lies in the rear brake use and throttle control. The use of the rear brake lets him get set up for the throttle early and then his throttle control allows him to ease the power on early and smoothly so it doesn't get the TC all tied up in knots. Therefore if the TC is not cutting in and out violently it probably allows bucket loads of usable torque to get to the track.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tremulant @ Feb 21 2009, 02:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Say what you will about Stoner being a whiny cry-baby, but my hat is off to him. It's obvious that the Desmo is a tough bull to ride and he rides that monster like a French whore.


+1

Hello I may get flamed for this but, this surging may be similar to wheel hop in auto racing, where wheel spin is always better then wheel hop because the motor never looses its RPMs. Wheel hop is a vicious cycle that causes the engine to bog every time the tire gets traction, it's fixed by proper suspension setup and by staying in the top of the power band/keeping wheel speed high. It should be an interesting year. Keeping weight off the rear probably helps maintain RPMs thus keeping the power delivery more stable and manageable, keeping a GP9 in its power band must be one hell of a chore.

Great thread, cause finally someone is bringing plausible explanations to Stoners speed. I think that the positioning as well as the use of rear brake and throttle control propably all contribute to his speed, but I'm no expert so I really can't say what is the "main reason" if there is one.

This is very interesting indeed though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hawkdriver @ Feb 21 2009, 08:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hello I may get flamed for this but, this surging may be similar to wheel hop in auto racing, where wheel spin is always better then wheel hop because the motor never looses its RPMs. Wheel hop is a vicious cycle that causes the engine to bog every time the tire gets traction, it's fixed by proper suspension setup and by staying in the top of the power band/keeping wheel speed high. It should be an interesting year. Keeping weight off the rear probably helps maintain RPMs thus keeping the power delivery more stable and manageable, keeping a GP9 in its power band must be one hell of a chore.

nice first post and welcome to the forum...

^ its a posibility, the TC might be limiting the engine to keep it from breaking traction just as the engine starts to gain revs, thereby causing the surging/pumping.


and BMachine... corrugated roads are a dirt road phenomenon, not an aussie one. they are found wherever vehicles travel on gravel roads and not just in oz. the worst part about them for me was finding the rock that used to be under the road surface and now isnt! that and the odd dip that grows into a hole so deep its more a well/spring.

Stoner has always been bagged here for being too reliant on TC and using too much TC...
I actually think the exact opposite is the case on corner exit.
By trailing the rear brake I think Stoner is bleeding in the power sooner, so he has more power available exactly when he needs it. He is then riding the bike to the limit of where the TC is engaging. Sure he might bang open the throttle omn exit, but probably there has been a lot of preparation before he does that, and he only dioes that once he knows the rear is hooked up, or spinning freely under control of the TC. Not in the area between those two points.
I think part of the problem NH and other Ducati riders are having is the rear breaking loose and then hooking up on the limit of the point where TC engages.
They probably have to either stay out of that area, or go past that area and let the TC engage fully and contol the power.

I think Stoners body position, and physical stature also help, but I think he is extremely good at riding the bike on the limit of the TC system, making maximum use of the power and torque without getting in to the zone where the TC is fighting the rear end for traction.

For whatever you can say about Stoner, he is king on the Ducati.
I still don't think the Ducati is as fast as the Yamahas or Repsol Hondas, but Stoner is the difference.

Although Casey's body position as the key to his speed is a tempting theory, I believe the answer is a lot more complex than one factor. You don't think other Duc riders haven't gone over Casey's riding style with a fine toothed comb? You think other competitors don't watch the likes of Phelps, Renaldo, or Tiger? But they ain't able to emulate are they? This is because there is elite then there is the elite of the elite and even the second tier cannot hope to emulate the best. Stoner's ability is a mental and physiological gift that we won't understand unless we cut into that brain and see how it is wired differently to everyone else. So, basically, don't overanalise - enjoy the show 'cause this mental masturbation isn't gonna solve anything!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Feb 21 2009, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You don't think other Duc riders haven't gone over Casey's riding style with a fine toothed comb?

I think the point that folk were touching on here was that aside from the obvious killer instinct, or want to win, that Casey displays ....... his riding style is very different to any other Duc. riders we have seen.

To be honest, if the other Ducati guys are attempting to emulate Stoners riding style, in any way, they don't look very successful to date. Not one of them looks like Stoner when riding. What we were discussing here is how he looks different and the possible effects of that different style.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Feb 21 2009, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Although Casey's body position as the key to his speed is a tempting theory, I believe the answer is a lot more complex than one factor. You don't think other Duc riders haven't gone over Casey's riding style with a fine toothed comb? You think other competitors don't watch the likes of Phelps, Renaldo, or Tiger? But they ain't able to emulate are they? This is because there is elite then there is the elite of the elite and even the second tier cannot hope to emulate the best. Stoner's ability is a mental and physiological gift that we won't understand unless we cut into that brain and see how it is wired differently to everyone else. So, basically, don't overanalise - enjoy the show 'cause this mental masturbation isn't gonna solve anything!

Interesting point. Back in the late 80's I met former Mclaren driver Stefan Johansson when he had moved to Indy Cars. I asked him about his former teammate Alain Prost and his famed braking abilities. Prost was rumoured to brake extremely late AND keep on the brakes all the way into and sometimes just past the apex of the corner. He would then nail the throttle and be out of the corner like a rocket. Essentially he was carrying his straight line speed into the corner using the the brakes (instead of the throttle) to find his threshold. Think about the skill that takes corner after corner and lap after lap. Anyway, Johansson confirmed Prost's method and said whenever he tried it he almost killed himself. He said most other F1 drivers who tried it couldn't replicate it either.

The point is that they may KNOW what he does but simply can't replicate it.

The more I learn about the Ducati, the more I'm amazed at Stoner.

And the harder I laugh at those who's rationalizations about the bike related to his success continues to be dispelled.

LMAO
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I am watching the MotoGP.coms video on testing. The shot of all the bikes going around the exact same corner defies words. Rossi powers through the corner perfectly. Stoner just slides into the corner and transitions to braking then acceleration out like he is playing. No change in lean angle at all and he is right down through the entire frame. You can see the weight transfer load up the front and the tire bite in...great. The Suzuki has no problem with the corner as CV and Capper power though with no drama. Honda, no problem. Sete, not Stoneresque (new word) but decent and no bucking. Then Hayden comes bouncing around the same corner like he is ready to to .... himself. He is not leaned anywhere near as far as Stoner probably from self preservation. The bike starts to roll in 5 degrees intervals as he powers to the apex. Bizarre. The engine is revving up and down in exactly the same cycle as the bike. If it was the bike pulling the motor it would be slightly behind but it isn't. It's almost like he has too much traction on the rear. If you re-watch the races at the beginning of last year Stoner was having all the problems that Hayden is having right now. That is why I say wait until next test. If it was the bike it should be solved. If it is Hayden then the guy is in for a hard year.