Ducati GP9 Insight from Canepa

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 2 2009, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I just watched the '04 review and some here claims that TC was fully operational from '03? was it?
None mentioned, but you really don't have the slightest clue.
i think curve is to blame for that stuff

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 2 2009, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I just watched the '04 review and some here claims that TC was fully operational from '03? was it?
None mentioned, but you really don't have the slightest clue.


SO because they didn't mention it ..... it didn't exist?

What else didn't they mention?

What sort of clip-ons Rossi uses?

What chain Rossi used?

What oil did Rossi have in his forks?



I can't believe they didn't give a full and upfront rundown of TC .... I mean lets face it ..... it was important back then too! ....... Stoner must have at least been planning and designing it in "shop" at school! mustn't he! ( this bit isn't even speculation .... its satire )

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 2 2009, 12:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>its polish satire


but finally some normal english post from you mate

and your right if it isnt told, it doesnt mean it isnt there, but it does mean its advantage was marginal...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (is200 @ Mar 1 2009, 07:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Clearley TC helps breaking (engine breaking management) which was the biggest change when the F1 cars banned TC, so the engine management does help on entry and apex speed, but the point I was making was in relation to corner exit and the fact that Casey is the only guy that can really 'ride' (term used to highlight caseys ability on the duke compared to the others' the duke out of a corner. If the Desmos TC was why he is fast then all the other riders on the Duke would be able to make it work (as it would really be the electronics making it work and not the rider) but they cant.
Well, electronic slipper cluthc are the technical term used for the electronic aid used for corner entry but we probably end up calling them all the electronic driver aid package as it is really all parts of one integrated package these days. But that was a side track.
Apex have every thing to do with exit speed. In the early days of the four strokes and all the way up to '05 this was much more defined as the TC really didn't do much at all in the dry.
Those that were first on the gas were fastest out of the corner, simple as that. They all have more than enough power and any advantage you gain at the apex is something you bring with you all the wey to the next braking point. Exactly where TC stop being a real factor doesn't matter as long as it does the job at full and near full lean angle.
I've never been much of a fan of all out "stoner uses lots of tc", but I know for a fact that he is very early on the gas and that you can hear the TC kick in ever so often. I suspect it's more of a combination:
Ducati were early out with a TC that could help side ways slide/spin and stoner where the only one to rely on this and he use it in the high lean angle area. Or more likely, it is his safety net in that area. To get a good drive out he use more manual throttle control. Ducati could easily change TC's spin dependence based on lean angle changes and thereby alowing a sensetive TC at apex and an unsensetive one at the exit of the same turn.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Also the TC still allows masses of wheel spin, for example at phillip island (2 seasons ago i think it was) Casey said that he was getting wheel spin over the start finish line (300kph) and also a balanced bike or a well set up bike is where both ends slide in unison, theses guys are just about getting wheel spin the whole lap. And they aim for a set up that allows 2 wheel drift (to an extent)
I agree in this allthough the TC's spin sensitivity are adjustable now, even in WSBK as seen in race 1 yesterday.
It's no small feature Stoner are doing even though I suspect most here think that I'm talking .... about him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 2 2009, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>but I know for a fact that he is very early on the gas and that you can hear the TC kick in ever so often.

I think nobody can sit at home without live and fast telemetry and declare it as "fact".

How can you tell this? how can you tell TC is kicking in?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 2 2009, 03:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How can you tell this? how can you tell TC is kicking in?

dam come on barry you can here the tc cut the power when the bikes come out of the bends from mid corner/exit almost till the bike is upright

its a very raspy sound....

very good examples.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C58rIv9YrI...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh39iwyA9WE...feature=related

surley you hear that? you hear it mid corner and on exit, sounds alot like the bike is missfiring

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Mar 2 2009, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>dam come on barry you can here the tc cut the power when the bikes come out of the bends from mid corner/exit almost till the bike is upright

its a very raspy sound....

very good examples.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C58rIv9YrI...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh39iwyA9WE...feature=related

surley you hear that? you hear it mid corner and on exit, sounds alot like the bike is missfiring

love that clip! .... the sound.

I hear it ...... its just that we can't say for sure thats TC. I have a bike that makes a simillar sound ( though I suspect it could be due mainly to being a carburetored bike and a bit "rudumentary" ) ..... but it hasn't got TC, its a tad more muffled than that too and sounds about half the revs but it does run "ragged" on coast at certain revs. So yeah I'm not sure thats what you are hearing.

1 reason I kinda doubt that is the sound is that folks here are assuming that they cut spark ...... thats a pretty drastic idea, and I imagine would be a pretty rough way of modulating power. Maybe too rough for the kind of stability that would be needed mid corner. There is a sound later where the power suddenly takes off ..... this I more think could be TC. I think that ragged sound could be just "ragged" running under stable throttle conditions. Hell I had a two stroke Husky enduro bike that did exact the same thing ...... it was great when accelerating, or decelerating ..... but was a .... of a bike for riding on the road as it would just drive you nuts with the burbling whenever the throttle was held at a certain posn.

I think TC would not do something as "rough' as cutting spark. MAybe modulating fuel and throttle opening, but spark? ..... sounds pretty drastic.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 1 2009, 11:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The answer is there Rog. thats the best I can give it for you ....... maybe you should use Babelfish too ..... but set it to translate from "fact" to "fairytale" so you can understand it


Edit:

I think this might be easy for you Rog.
No Slow is not equal to erratic .....

but with TC its likely erratic = slow ..........

do you get that?
Again you avoided my question. Let me remind you.
I asked who you considered to be a smooth rider and who you considered to be erratic. I asked this because spies stated only erratic rider's benefited greatly from TC. Simple ....... question really but you will not answer it. i wonder why Let me put it another way. Who is the smoother rider out of say rossi or stoner ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 2 2009, 07:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> love that clip! .... the sound.

I hear it ...... its just that we can't say for sure thats TC. I have a bike that makes a simillar sound ( though I suspect it could be due mainly to being a carburetored bike and a bit "rudumentary" ) ..... but it hasn't got TC, its a tad more muffled than that too and sounds about half the revs but it does run "ragged" on coast at certain revs. So yeah I'm not sure thats what you are hearing.

1 reason I kinda doubt that is the sound is that folks here are assuming that they cut spark ...... thats a pretty drastic idea, and I imagine would be a pretty rough way of modulating power. Maybe too rough for the kind of stability that would be needed mid corner. There is a sound later where the power suddenly takes off ..... this I more think could be TC. I think that ragged sound could be just "ragged" running under stable throttle conditions. Hell I had a two stroke Husky enduro bike that did exact the same thing ...... it was great when accelerating, or decelerating ..... but was a .... of a bike for riding on the road as it would just drive you nuts with the burbling whenever the throttle was held at a certain posn.

I think TC would not do something as "rough' as cutting spark. MAybe modulating fuel and throttle opening, but spark? ..... sounds pretty drastic.

I guess they map that "ragged" running in the mapping. Wonder why they didn't do that in '02, '03, '04. Wait, they did! But only in rain. Strange guys those MotoGP techs.

Btw, I agree that a slow modulation of the throttle is smother and much better when the rear wheel brakes free. It will of course never be fast enough to save a slide, but adjusting it just right I'm sure they will be able to create the maximum highside conditions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 2 2009, 06:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> love that clip! .... the sound.

I hear it ...... its just that we can't say for sure thats TC. I have a bike that makes a simillar sound ( though I suspect it could be due mainly to being a carburetored bike and a bit "rudumentary" ) ..... but it hasn't got TC, its a tad more muffled than that too and sounds about half the revs but it does run "ragged" on coast at certain revs. So yeah I'm not sure thats what you are hearing.

1 reason I kinda doubt that is the sound is that folks here are assuming that they cut spark ...... thats a pretty drastic idea, and I imagine would be a pretty rough way of modulating power. Maybe too rough for the kind of stability that would be needed mid corner. There is a sound later where the power suddenly takes off ..... this I more think could be TC. I think that ragged sound could be just "ragged" running under stable throttle conditions. Hell I had a two stroke Husky enduro bike that did exact the same thing ...... it was great when accelerating, or decelerating ..... but was a .... of a bike for riding on the road as it would just drive you nuts with the burbling whenever the throttle was held at a certain posn.

I think TC would not do something as "rough' as cutting spark. MAybe modulating fuel and throttle opening, but spark? ..... sounds pretty drastic.

so, because an old carburetted bike runs ragged and a single cylinder 2-stroke bike hates constant throttle that means the sound is not TC but ...... engine mapping on a duc gp bike...??

you have just compared a cutting edge race bike with a husky enduro bike!

WTF are you on? and if nothing, go and get checked out because you are posting drivel...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 2 2009, 12:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>SO because they didn't mention it ..... it didn't exist?

What else didn't they mention?

What sort of clip-ons Rossi uses?

What chain Rossi used?

What oil did Rossi have in his forks?



I can't believe they didn't give a full and upfront rundown of TC .... I mean lets face it ..... it was important back then too! ....... Stoner must have at least been planning and designing it in "shop" at school! mustn't he! ( this bit isn't even speculation .... its satire )

I never said anything about "they" mention anything. I did something you should try too, watch and listen carefully. First you go for a few trackdays, so that you learn the basics in motorbike track riding, then you go back and actually watch the races. It's amazing how much information you can extract from that if you just know where to look. As an excample I saw the rear wheel on most of the fastest bikes from time to time stepped out heavily at the corner exits in a way it hasn't done the latest three to four years. That tell me that traction control, if at all present, were nothing like what they've had the latest years. I'm sure it tells you something very different, but then again, try to get the basics and I'm sure you finally can come up with some valuable contribution.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Mar 2 2009, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>WTF are you on? and if nothing, go and get checked out because you are posting drivel...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 2 2009, 08:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Again you avoided my question. Let me remind you.
I asked who you considered to be a smooth rider and who you considered to be erratic. I asked this because spies stated only erratic rider's benefited greatly from TC. Simple ....... question really but you will not answer it. i wonder why Let me put it another way. Who is the smoother rider out of say rossi or stoner ?

Rossi of course.
Can I ask you a question Rog? All the guys on the Ducs look like they are on wild broncos and all the guys on the Yamahas look like they are on rails. Perhaps the more pertinent question could be whose electronics package is working better? Which is the harder bike to deal with? I would imagine it would be pretty hard for anyone to look smooth on the Ducati during the 800cc era.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Mar 2 2009, 10:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi of course.
Can I ask you a question Rog? All the guys on the Ducs look like they are on wild broncos and all the guys on the Yamahas look like they are on rails. Perhaps the more pertinent question could be whose electronics package is working better? Which is the harder bike to deal with? I would imagine it would be pretty hard for anyone to look smooth on the Ducati during the 800cc era.
Good questions but i was trying to focus on what spies had to say on the tc issue not go off on all sorts of tangents that barry is trying to steer us to avoid answering my question.

But to answer your question. Imo the yamaha does look the more stable bike compared to the duc at times. Is this due to riders ,set up, bike design or electronics ? i dont know !

We do get throttle and brake telemetry indicators on eurosport which tends to show which riders are more linear and smother on throttle control. Are the less linear riders relying on tc more ? without the tc would they seem more erratic ? (06).

Bm is the forum TC "expert" yet he tells us nothing !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Mar 2 2009, 10:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi of course.
Can I ask you a question Rog? All the guys on the Ducs look like they are on wild broncos and all the guys on the Yamahas look like they are on rails. Perhaps the more pertinent question could be whose electronics package is working better? Which is the harder bike to deal with? I would imagine it would be pretty hard for anyone to look smooth on the Ducati during the 800cc era.
Exactly. I think that the ducati did have a power advantage in 2007 and probably in 2008 but at the expense of barely manageable (mainly by one rider) power delivery even with current electronics, and not manageable even by him for several races last season. Ducati were alone in opposing the 800cc formula which most including me decry, so it is a bit tough to criticise them for doing their best to take advantage of it. They are certainly under no obligation to build a bike similar to rossi's yamaha, in fact doing so would be a fairly sure way to lose.

I still think absolutely that the gps stuff should go. Apart from philosophical/moral /religious considerations, I am sure rossi doesn't need it, and I doubt stoner really needs it either.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 2 2009, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Good questions but i was trying to focus on what spies had to say on the tc issue not go off on all sorts of tangents that barry is trying to steer us to avoid answering my question.

But to answer your question. Imo the yamaha does look the more stable bike compared to the duc at times. Is this due to riders ,set up, bike design or electronics ? i dont know !

We do get throttle and brake telemetry indicators on eurosport which tends to show which riders are more linear and smother on throttle control. Are the less linear riders relying on tc more ? without the tc would they seem more erratic ? (06).

Bm is the forum TC "expert" yet he tells us nothing !
I don't understand quite a few of barry's arguments. I am doubtless a linear thinker, but when he occasionally lapses into the more prosaic english he apparently despises on philosophical grounds I find him to be much more cogent. Still, it is a forum, he can express himself as he sees fit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Mar 2 2009, 09:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so, because an old carburetted bike runs ragged and a single cylinder 2-stroke bike hates constant throttle that means the sound is not TC but ...... engine mapping on a duc gp bike...??

you have just compared a cutting edge race bike with a husky enduro bike!

WTF are you on? and if nothing, go and get checked out because you are posting drivel...

The only bikes I have had that run smooth as silk are EFI low tuned jobbies eg. Shop bought R1's sure they make power ... but its sewing machine smooth ...... the symptoms described are what I have also observed in many a highly tuned bike, (especially with a pretty lumpy cam in it). Hows that? is that clearer?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 2 2009, 08:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Again you avoided my question. Let me remind you.
I asked who you considered to be a smooth rider and who you considered to be erratic. I asked this because spies stated only erratic rider's benefited greatly from TC. Simple ....... question really but you will not answer it. i wonder why Let me put it another way. Who is the smoother rider out of say rossi or stoner ?


Rog. ..... Rog, ....... Rog.

It is all in here:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 1 2009, 06:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thats right ....... but it does so by inhibiting power. But thats not faster, thats safer.

As I understand there would merely be a matrix of data built up from such parameters as acceleration, speed, lean( tilt lateral)( or even possibly centifugal force measured), possibly longitudinal tilt/force ( distinct from acceleration for eg. Wheelie control ). Given that I doubt that it would be usable for to rapid a reaction to control, and that the motorcycle tends to "approach" a loss of traction, one would think that any form of power cutting would be done at best as a quick cyclic prediction that an, algoritm based on the input parameters, was about to exceed what is set as a "safe" level of performance.

If the rider is:

twitchy, or over enthusiastic, with the throttle ...... he will be limitted by TC
twitchy, or over enthusiastic, with turning .......... " " "
twitchy, or over enthusiastic, with weight placement ....." " "


But if he accelerates well, leans well, and turns in well ....... the control system will not be seeing him as a "danger" and hence not limiting him ....... so then he will be as fast as he would if he had no TC whatsoever.

A team/rider who wants to be fast will gamble with safety, and set the limits of the algorithm as such.
A team that wants their costs to be less from equipment damage .... will set the limits low.
A rider who wants to just ride around safely would ask to have the limits to be set low ....... though I strongly doubt this has ever happened






So making you slower makes you faster?

Typical Rog, reply.

I do know/have used quite a number of the laws of physics Rog.! ....( especially in linear motion, kinetic energy ( and translation of potential energy to kinetic too, I guess ), and some experience in radial motion and energy ...... that's how much I'd know Rog.! ...... care to set me a test?? ) I can supply you with a test for me ...... I wrote a few in years gone by whilst tutoring for 12 years for RMIT over here ) .

Unlike yourself, I havent ..... ( to quote Rog. in one of his sooky PM's ) ... " studied performance engineering at Kingston uni" ..... ( but I did like Bob Marley music a while ago ), ...... but I have got into the odd Electromechanical "thing" or two

Go for it Rog! ...... I'm up for a bit of a "dig out the old memories" ATM.



you want names? well I could guess a few ....... however .....


you are all complaining about TC aren't you? its making it too boring, nobody falls off anymore , or they all just seem to be riding around safely .... seem some of the arguments.

So I gather TC is working ...... yes? ........ but unfortunately it is now difficult to tell who exactly is an erratic rider ..... other than ........ erratic riders will be inhibited by much activation of TC ....... get it? ....... hence I think we can assume that ...... any of the slower riders have benefited from TC ........ the ones who are not benefiting ( and need it less ..... as even Spies suggests .... and many other riders have said ) will always be the fast guys .... ie. the Stoners, Rossi's the Pedrosas ......

Is that clear enough Rog,

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 2 2009, 10:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Good questions but i was trying to focus on what spies had to say on the tc issue not go off on all sorts of tangents that barry is trying to steer us to avoid answering my question.

But to answer your question. Imo the yamaha does look the more stable bike compared to the duc at times. Is this due to riders ,set up, bike design or electronics ? i dont know !

We do get throttle and brake telemetry indicators on eurosport which tends to show which riders are more linear and smother on throttle control. Are the less linear riders relying on tc more ? without the tc would they seem more erratic ? (06).

Bm is the forum TC "expert" yet he tells us nothing !


Perhaps you should tell us who exactly you think has benefitted from TC Rog. ...... then we can work out if you understand what Spies and others say ( especiallly when they say " the fast guys will always be fast )

So go on Rog. who do you think has benefited from TC?

I'll have a guess for you ..... De Puniet? ....... Elias? ........ Guinters? .......... Melandri? all the bottom enders

How do they benefit? ........ if they ran with no TC they might be up there running with the "big boys" for a few laps ........ then they would make a mistake and either fall or drop back. The fall usually finishes their race ...... ( no benefit there ) ...... by "catching" them just as they make a mistake ..... the effect of the mistake is minimalised ..... by momentarily slowing them ..... so though they tend to slow ..... they generally tend to finish the race ..... that a huge benefit ....... is it not?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 2 2009, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The only bikes I have had that run smooth as silk are EFI low tuned jobbies eg. Shop bought R1's sure they make power ... but its sewing machine smooth ...... the symptoms described are what I have also observed in many a highly tuned bike, (especially with a pretty lumpy cam in it). Hows that? is that clearer?
^ that doesnt change the fact that you tried to compare the ducati gp with an enduro 2stroke...

as for the ragged sound of stoners ducati, there are many ways of cutting power to the back wheel, so who says they have to cut spark to cut power? retarding the ignition will give you that effect and will sound ragged and is a much smoother way. i take it you are familiar with retarding things?
in all likelihood, TC cuts power to the back wheel by modding throttle, changing fuelling and altering ignition. cutting spark is probably saved for wheelie control and the rev limiter...