Ducati GP9 Insight from Canepa

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 2 2009, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps you should tell us who exactly you think has benefitted from TC Rog. ...... then we can work out if you understand what Spies and others say ( especiallly when they say " the fast guys will always be fast )

So go on Rog. who do you think has benefited from TC?

I'll have a guess for you ..... De Puniet? ....... Elias? ........ Guinters? .......... Melandri? all the bottom enders

How do they benefit? ........ if they ran with no TC they might be up there running with the "big boys" for a few laps ........ then they would make a mistake and either fall or drop back. The fall usually finishes their race ...... ( no benefit there ) ...... by "catching" them just as they make a mistake ..... the effect of the mistake is minimalised ..... by momentarily slowing them ..... so though they tend to slow ..... they generally tend to finish the race ..... that a huge benefit ....... is it not?
I asked you first, you dodged the question 5 or 6 times and now ask me the question you refuse to answer in a straight way. I asked you the question because your the most out spoken on TC and its effects and on several occasions have told us that you are an expert on this subject.

All i did was quote something spies said and put the question to you. Im under no illusion all the riders use what ever type/make of tc that is available to there team. I give up asking you the original question now because your boring and are just waffling.
Comparing a 2 stroke enduro bike to a motogp bike funny as ....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 2 2009, 06:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> love that clip! .... the sound.

I hear it ...... its just that we can't say for sure thats TC. I have a bike that makes a simillar sound ( though I suspect it could be due mainly to being a carburetored bike and a bit "rudumentary" ) ..... but it hasn't got TC, its a tad more muffled than that too and sounds about half the revs but it does run "ragged" on coast at certain revs. So yeah I'm not sure thats what you are hearing.

1 reason I kinda doubt that is the sound is that folks here are assuming that they cut spark ...... thats a pretty drastic idea, and I imagine would be a pretty rough way of modulating power. Maybe too rough for the kind of stability that would be needed mid corner. There is a sound later where the power suddenly takes off ..... this I more think could be TC. I think that ragged sound could be just "ragged" running under stable throttle conditions. Hell I had a two stroke Husky enduro bike that did exact the same thing ...... it was great when accelerating, or decelerating ..... but was a .... of a bike for riding on the road as it would just drive you nuts with the burbling whenever the throttle was held at a certain posn.

I think TC would not do something as "rough' as cutting spark. MAybe modulating fuel and throttle opening, but spark? ..... sounds pretty drastic.

ok lets get this settled a "proper" write up on traction control... and you cant argue with this article

http://www.hindawi.com/GetArticle.aspx?doi...1373&e=html

its a combination of modifying the spark pulse and closing the butterfly valves... i guess gp bikes use both because as we all know that just cutting the power to the sparkplugs would be pointless if the bike is still gettin fed fuel, it would be wasting fuel and we know gp bike systems also save fuel so it has to be a combination of both.

thats a amazing explanation with diagrams not some nonsense the media has decited to do a story on... i suggest everyone has a read it explains everything.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Mar 2 2009, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>ok lets get this settled a "proper" write up on traction control... and you cant argue with this article

http://www.hindawi.com/GetArticle.aspx?doi...1373&e=html

its a combination of modifying the spark pulse and closing the butterfly valves... i guess gp bikes use both because as we all know that just cutting the power to the sparkplugs would be pointless if the bike is still gettin fed fuel, it would be wasting fuel and we know gp bike systems also save fuel so it has to be a combination of both.

thats a amazing explanation with diagrams not some nonsense the media has decited to do a story on... i suggest everyone has a read it explains everything.

As long as you understand that this article is research project, a bit home brew (not meaning to be iinsulting). Motogp TC will be quite a lot more advanced than what is in the article, not just ignition chop and butterfly control!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chockmoose @ Mar 2 2009, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As long as you understand that this article is research project, a bit home brew (not meaning to be iinsulting). Motogp TC will be quite a lot more advanced than what is in the article, not just ignition chop and butterfly control!


yes i know that motogp will be much more advanced than this and no one will have the real full details of gp bikes other than there software coders and engineers....

but still gp bikes adjust timing and still control the throttle with lots of sensors so the basics are still the same just alot more advanced


im not gettin into this argument again i just posted that so people can have a read and know the basics.. here is another article.

this one is better

less homebrew.....



http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0603_tr...togp/index.html

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chockmoose @ Mar 3 2009, 03:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As long as you understand that this article is research project, a bit home brew (not meaning to be iinsulting). Motogp TC will be quite a lot more advanced than what is in the article, not just ignition chop and butterfly control!


I'd chose method in article 2 ......
article 1 was more likely someone doing a thesis?? Mind you article 2 doesn't say much at all.

And the point is I don't think you will find much on the net on how the TC actually works on each bike. And they will be quite different. These things would be kept secret enough so other teams don't see what they are doing ....... so I suspect anything you find on the net. ...... will be just as you have found. But I don't mind ..... thats kinda what I like about all the TC threads .... they are very "black box" engineering ( ie. look at what something seems to be doing and attempt to fathom its workings without access to the actual "innards") and thats what is njoyable about such discussions.


Controlling two throttle bodies would at least be semi smooth ..... and since Yamaha are worried about odd "resonances" along that crankshaft ..... I'd even be suspecting they are controlling all 4 for smoothness. I just can't see controlling the spark as smooth enough for GP bikes ..... it seems a very agricultural method.

Great bit of work in the first one though. And yes its a must read. But its some young guys uni thesis or something ..... not a very convincing thing




Edit:But it just dawned on me ..... who knows, maybe Ducati are cutting the spark ..... maybe thats why "the pumping" occurs ....... who knows!!??




PS. Ok Rog. Highlight that lot and then give me your argument saying ... "I"m a "@%#&" or my daughter "does something ..... " ...... oh and I'll also anticipate the asking for names ...... umm? let me see ......... Benny Hill! thats who it is!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 3 2009, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I asked you first, you dodged the question 5 or 6 times


Rog. I still don't think you get it ....... you can't give specific names ..... its a general thing . You are aware that those names I gave you were in "mirth", merely as a satirical attempt to satiate your strange desire to have "names" when I did not feel I could get that specific.?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 3 2009, 02:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rog. I still don't think you get it ....... you can't give specific names ..... its a general thing . You are aware that those names I gave you were in "mirth", merely as a satirical attempt to satiate your strange desire to have "names" when I did not feel I could get that specific.?
So you couldln't say if in your opinion stoner was/is an erratic rider ?? your ....... lame ! back to skipping your mindless posts again i think.

And berry, you have know idea about Satire so give it up. You have tryed in several threads in the past few days and failed on every attempt. You need an IQ of over 50 to even get close to pulling that off

OK for the experts, have a look here at what can be bought!

http://motorsport.magnetimarelli.com/

Nose around the site and you will have a little appreciation of these systems...

just one thing though, remember it is all in the software!!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 3 2009, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So you couldln't say if in your opinion stoner was/is an erratic rider ??

Are you serious! ...... oh man what a ....... Rog. ..... its clear Stoner and Rossi are most definitely NOT erratic ....... do you seriously think Stoner is erratic!!??
( don't you get that as Spies, and many others have said, ....... TC slows the erratic guys ...... therefore they must be some of the guys at the back end of the field ) As well as the very description of operation of TC gives the answer that ...... TC slows you if you make mistakes its an absolute nonsense that you dreamed up that it can possibly make you faster ....... except in the case where you consider said riders may well have crashed had they tried to ride faster.

So many riders/journo's ( even your idol Rossi himself! ) etc. have pointed out that Stoner is just plain fast ..... and you still have the stupidity to think "its the TC" ..... gee Rog. to do the world some good, you need to go jump around a paddock with a few too many kangaroos in it


What about Rossi for that matter ..... though I suspect your "yellow fever" makes it impossible for you to figure that what goes for Stoner also goes for Rossi with regard to TC


Stoner erratic ........ I've heard everything now

Geez you are a ....... Rog.



You know Rog. you go on at ARPinkyvAWKano ...... as being a troll ..... and yes it seems he means to be trying to be ...... but you Rog. .... you come out with stuff so stupid you far surpass his efforts at stupidity! ...But hey in the spirit of racing and placings .... to your credit you win in this field of endeavour, closely followed by Babel and his upsidedown translations, and then comes Pinkyvaw .... the Pedrosa of the competition

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chockmoose @ Mar 3 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>OK for the experts, have a look here at what can be bought!

http://motorsport.magnetimarelli.com/

Nose around the site and you will have a little appreciation of these systems...

just one thing though, remember it is all in the software!!!!


We've been over and over and over all that Choco ....... but Rog. and a few others ( the "Rossifans" ) were trying to say Rossi didn't even have TC back then until it was pointed out to them that Rossi was magnetti's no.1 guy

Then when they finally had to accept that we got all the crap that Rossi has his TC turned down and Stoner his turned up ( like it was some volume knob on a TV )

Its been a never ending saga of hilarity really ..... worth a read if you can trace back through it all


Even now still there are those like Rog. above that are still trying to make the explanation for the operation of TC fit an obscure fairytale that makes Rossi look like a god .... and all those who beat him look like they:

1, "got lucky" ...... as they said about Hayden ... ( and Stoner too for the first few rounds he won in 07 )

or

2. had some unfair advantage ........ eg, fairytales like ..Stoner has more fuel, uses TC more, has better TC, has a better bike ( thats become one of the century's Most Busted myths though hasn't it ),

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 3 2009, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you serious! ...... oh man what a ....... Rog. ..... its clear Stoner and Rossi are most definitely NOT erratic ....... do you seriously think Stoner is erratic!!??
( don't you get that as Spies, and many others have said, ....... TC slows the erratic guys ...... therefore they must be some of the guys at the back end of the field ) As well as the very description of operation of TC gives the answer that ...... TC slows you if you make mistakes its an absolute nonsense that you dreamed up that it can possibly make you faster ....... except in the case where you consider said riders may well have crashed had they tried to ride faster.

So many riders/journo's ( even your idol Rossi himself! ) etc. have pointed out that Stoner is just plain fast ..... and you still have the stupidity to think "its the TC" ..... gee Rog. to do the world some good, you need to go jump around a paddock with a few too many kangaroos in it


What about Rossi for that matter ..... though I suspect your "yellow fever" makes it impossible for you to figure that what goes for Stoner also goes for Rossi with regard to TC


Stoner erratic ........ I've heard everything now

Geez you are a ....... Rog.



You know Rog. you go on at ARPinkyvAWKano ...... as being a troll ..... and yes it seems he means to be trying to be ...... but you Rog. .... you come out with stuff so stupid you far surpass his efforts at stupidity! ...But hey in the spirit of racing and placings .... to your credit you win in this field of endeavour, closely followed by Babel and his upsidedown translations, and then comes Pinkyvaw .... the Pedrosa of the competition
Did you actually watch the vid ans listen to what spies said ? He didnt say tc slows erratic riders. He said it helps them quite a bit. For the most part he is talking about his AMA tc and states that the TC now used in motogp is far more sophisticated with wheel sensors lean angles sensors gps ect.

Yes i consider Stoner to be a more erratic rider than say rossi. his 06 season showed this and he didnt disprove it much in 08. Although he was smooth in 07 but as spies said, Tc helps erratic riders. You know this to be true which is why you dodged the question 6 or 7 times before being pushed into a corner. Take your fanboy glasses off for a change.

Tc slows erratic riders so barrymachine knows better than spies what a fruitcake !

by the way, i had to remove your emotions so i could reply, as usual you over did it and the software cant handle it. Maybe you just an emotional guy who crys into his pillow at night.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 4 2009, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He said it helps them quite a bit.


So he said "helps" them ......... you are saying he meant that they actually go faster? I think you are misinterpreting him. No I know you are ...... anyone who thinks TC is making Stoner faster is an ....., especially when you go on to try and say its then not helping Rossi What about Pedrosa in 07? was TC helping him too? I'd say he looks even smoother than Rossi.

I'd say it meant it helps them stay on and go more consistently .... never faster. That would defy the laws of physics ..... as we have already discussed, and I note that you are pleased to threaten to flagrantly break the "laws of physics" ...... even though you probably do not know one.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 4 2009, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes i consider Stoner to be a more erratic rider than say rossi. his 06 season showed this and he didnt disprove it much in 08. Although he was smooth in 07 but as spies said, Tc helps erratic riders. You know this to be true which is why you dodged the question 6 or 7 times before being pushed into a corner. Take your fanboy glasses off for a change.


So what of 07? the year all this crap started? ....... by your reckoning Rossi was twice as eratic as Stoner and more erratic than Pedrosa ....... whats your excuse for that, in this fairytale formula thats happening in your head?


Face it Rog. your fairytale has more holes than outerspace

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 3 2009, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So he said "helps" them ......... you are saying he meant that they actually go faster? I think you are misinterpreting him. No I know you are ...... anyone who thinks TC is making Stoner faster is an ....., especially when you go on to try and say its then not helping Rossi What about Pedrosa in 07? was TC helping him too? I'd say he looks even smoother than Rossi.

I'd say it meant it helps them stay on and go more consistently .... never faster. That would defy the laws of physics ..... as we have already discussed, and I note that you are pleased to threaten to flagrantly break the "laws of physics" ...... even though you probably do not know one.





So what of 07? the year all this crap started? ....... by your reckoning Rossi was twice as eratic as Stoner and more erratic than Pedrosa ....... whats your excuse for that, in this fairytale formula thats happening in your head?


Face it Rog. your fairytale has more holes than outerspace
Firstly i never said it didn't help rossi .i said rossi is smoother than stoner.
I agree Tc makes them more consistent but where we differ is i say being more consistent esp with a more erratic rider makes them faster. Tc is used because it makes lap times faster not safety, thats just dorna bs. So how does this defy the laws of physics professor berry ?

Sorry to regress this thread, but I'm still astonished that Barry claims that you can't hear the TC cut in. One question Barry, have you actually attended either an Australian Superbike, a Moto GP or a WSB meeting in the last three years? Last year I stood outfield at Starkey's during Saturday's Moto GP wet qualifying, and I couldn't believe the difference in TC - not only from bike to bike, but also changes particular to each rider throughout the session. It is so blatant watching trackside, which is why I suspect you are an armchair racefan. Even then, the sound from the on-board shots clearly betray the application of TC, as does the sound from the various trackside camera angles.

To digress, disappointed at the lack of 'on boards' at PI last weekend, after they were reintroduced to WSB at the back end of last season.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Mar 3 2009, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry to regress this thread, but I'm still astonished that Barry claims that you can't hear the TC cut in. One question Barry, have you actually attended either an Australian Superbike, a Moto GP or a WSB meeting in the last three years? Last year I stood outfield at Starkey's during Saturday's Moto GP wet qualifying, and I couldn't believe the difference in TC - not only from bike to bike, but also changes particular to each rider throughout the session. It is so blatant watching trackside, which is why I suspect you are an armchair racefan. Even then, the sound from the on-board shots clearly betray the application of TC, as does the sound from the various trackside camera angles.

To digress, disappointed at the lack of 'on boards' at PI last weekend, after they were reintroduced to WSB at the back end of last season.
i agree that you can hear the tc cutting in and the different sounds these bikes make from year to year. Remember the sound of biaggi's slipper clutched yamaha ? barry has only followed motogp since stoner started winning in mid 07, its obvious to most of us that he has never been to a race and i doubt actually rides a bike, i meen in this very thread he compared a motogp bike to a single cyclinder 2 stroke enduro bike
i normally skip his posts cos there full of mindless ..... but for some reason started reading and answering them. i put it down to off season boredom. roll on the new season

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Feb 20 2009, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>http://www.crash.net/MotoGP/News/143186/1/...ci_insight.html

Excerpt

But the only non-Stoner victory is a wet/dry win for Loris Capirossi in the 2007 Japanese Grand Prix - while Toni Elias was the next best Ducati rider with two podiums and eleventh overall last year - making the 800cc Desmosedici the most 'mysterious' motorcycle on the MotoGP grid.

Even with the knowledge of computer data and technical understanding learnt as a mechanical engineering student, Canepa admits it is hard to pinpoint exactly how Stoner goes so much faster than every other Desmosedici rider.

“Stoner brakes later and opens the throttle sooner!” smiled the Pramac rider. “I don't know exactly what Stoner does better than us. I know he uses a lot of rear brake, but so does Nicky [Hayden]. When you enter the corner the rear brake helps to close the line.”

One area where many GP9 riders are currently losing time is on corner exit, with the rear of the bike 'pumping' up and down as the power is applied. Canepa revealed that it was actually a much bigger problem on the 2008 machine and believes it is caused by opening the throttle too aggressively.

In contrast to suggestions that Stoner's success is down to pinning the throttle and letting the electronics sort it out, Canepa believes that careful use of the throttle is the key to extracting a good lap time from the Desmosedici.

I think the throttle control is something the electronics can sort out, but only with the help of Stoner. He's not likely to give away his edge (unless he sits out the season).


Aw ...., who posted this as credible......

Please realise the folly of leaving this sentence in the post, being an engineering student who can spell motorbike does not mean you know what you are talking about.

Although, when you change your mind next week, it may make sense.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 3 2009, 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Firstly i never said it didn't help rossi .i said rossi is smoother than stoner.
I agree Tc makes them more consistent but where we differ is i say being more consistent esp with a more erratic rider makes them faster. Tc is used because it makes lap times faster not safety, thats just dorna bs. So how does this defy the laws of physics professor berry ?
Rossi is smoother/less erratic than stoner, and probably most if not all riders in history, and certainly any that I have ever seen; I have never seen even any prolonged footage of agostini, but I presume he was fairly un-erratic as well.

Barry appears to have generalised from " the stoner is only good because of tc" argument which annoys most stoner fans initially on the forum, before they mellow anyway , to many other spurious arguments, but I do support him to some extent on that single point. Why did tc make stoner un-erratic in 2007, but not in 2008?. My view is that tc does help stoner more than other riders, or other non-ducati riders anyway, but only because ducati decided their way to win in the 800 cc formula (which they opposed) was by designing a bike with a brutal torque curve etc which would have been unrideable with previous technology in the hope that somebody could ride it with the benefit of tc; don't they have the only screamer engine?.

You are correct that stoner has always been a win it or bin it rider except in 2007, but it is also arguable that he always had a bike disadvantage prior to then, and when he started binning it in 2008 he basically had no choice given the points situation other than to win it or bin it if he wished to defend his championship; I think he did wish to do this .

There is little doubt in my mind that laguna did intimidate him, at least temporarily, as well and contributed to his falls in the subsequent 2 races, where he seemed to have decided he could not win a dogfight with valentino and went too hard early. Whilst it is obviously difficult to compete in a dogfight with someone of valentino's unmatched capabilities in this regard, I also think the 2008 ducati's characteristics did not favour dog-fighting, and it was exactly the need for the ducati to be uninterrupted to get through corners with any facility that valentino exploited to duff stoner up at laguna.

I was somewhat encouraged by stoner riding a more tactical race in his last 2 victories, perhaps of necessity due to his wrist, and admittedly with rossi starting from well back on the grid.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Mar 3 2009, 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Aw ...., who posted this as credible......

Please realise the folly of leaving this sentence in the post, being an engineering student who can spell motorbike does not mean you know what you are talking about.

Although, when you change your mind next week, it may make sense.

Pete


My thoughts exactly big yin

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Mar 3 2009, 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Aw ...., who posted this as credible......

Please realise the folly of leaving this sentence in the post, being an engineering student who can spell motorbike does not mean you know what you are talking about.

Although, when you change your mind next week, it may make sense.

Pete
are you just putting out an opinion, that you dont believe yourself, for the sake of promoting discussion again ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Mar 4 2009, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>are you just putting out an opinion, that you dont believe yourself, for the sake of promoting discussion again ?