Ducati GP9 Insight from Canepa

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 4 2009, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Barry appears to have generalised from " the stoner is only good because of tc" argument which annoys most stoner fans initially on the forum, before they mellow anyway , to many other spurious arguments, but I do support him to some extent on that single point. Why did tc make stoner un-erratic in 2007, but not in 2008?.

so thats a new one now Michael!! now not only Does TC mysteriously make Stoner faster ( despite the fact that TC slows erattic riders ........ and the fact that such a proposition is like inventing "the perpetual motion machine" ) ..... but now you have TC making Stoner "un-erratic" .......

it just gets loopier and loopier

how the hell do you figure TC makes Stoner "un-erratic"!!??

I gotta hear this!


maybe you can reference some of the articles here:
http://www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html




Doesn't Stoner's Qatar times ..... at least give you the slightest thought that "perhaps he can ride" ? Certainly by what Spies said .... yes he can ride ...... and judging by his time ...... TC ain't causing much affect on him one bit. Ergo ....... he's just plain fast and not making mistakes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 4 2009, 09:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so thats a new one now Michael!! now not only Does TC mysteriously make Stoner faster ( despite the fact that TC slows erattic riders) ..... but now you have TC making Stoner "un-erratic" .......

it just get loopier and loopier

how the hell do you figure TC makes Stoner "un-erratic"!!??

I gotta hear this!
You say FACT. Just because you believe it doesn't make it a fact ! Why do you think teams use TC ? do you think it was for safety ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 4 2009, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You say FACT. Just because you believe it doesn't make it a fact !

No but the mere fact that you don't believe it convinces me


TC has several pluses:

Yes safety ......

Cost. ...... it costs a lot when riders stack bikes.

But also it also is better to finish the race than look good for two or three laps then crash ..... TC stops the riders doing that ...... so as Spies says ..... when they are getting erratic ...... it cuts power so they get slowed down so they don't approach a crash situation. ( despite your efforts to convince me that less power moves a bike around a track faster ....... thats actually suggesting a better thing than "perpetual motion" .... thats in the realms of "free energy" )

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 4 2009, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No but the mere fact that you don't believe it convinces me


TC has several pluses:

Yes safety ......

Cost. ...... it costs a lot when riders stack bikes.

But also it also is better to finish the race than look good for two or three laps then crash ..... TC stops the riders doing that ...... so as Spies says ..... when they are getting erratic ...... it cuts power so they get slowed down so they don't approach a crash situation. ( despite your efforts to convince me that less power moves a bike around a track faster ....... thats actually suggesting a better thing than "perpetual motion" .... thats in the realms of "free energy" )
That's dorna bs. i suppose you believe the 800 rule was about safety too. Its all about lap times.How else can an 800 lap faster than a 990, it aint rocket science .
Spies was talking about TC on his AMA bike, then he states how much more advanced the motgp systems are in comparison.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 4 2009, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>he states how much more advanced the motgp systems are in comparison.


hmmmm ........ well yes they must be! .... certainly if they are entering the realms of "free energy"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 4 2009, 09:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so thats a new one now Michael!! now not only Does TC mysteriously make Stoner faster ( despite the fact that TC slows erattic riders ........ and the fact that such a proposition is like inventing "the perpetual motion machine" ) ..... but now you have TC making Stoner "un-erratic" .......

it just gets loopier and loopier

how the hell do you figure TC makes Stoner "un-erratic"!!??

I gotta hear this!"
Barry you need to read before you post sometimes; whilst I find your "conversational" prose style hard to follow at times, your arguments are on occasion valid, and I was actually supporting one of them on this occasion; my point was exactly what you are now saying, that if tc rendered stoner mistake-free in 2007, it does not make sense that he became "erratic" again in 2008 with presumably another year of advance in tc. My other point is that to ride the thing at all in 2007 and 2008 was an achievement, let alone smoothly. Whilst I do think rossi rides exceptionally smoothly, I enjoy stoner's spectacular style, and basically in motogp unlike platform diving you don't have any judges awarding points for style, so any way he can make the bike go fast is fine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 4 2009, 10:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>my point was exactly what you are now saying, that if tc rendered stoner mistake-free in 2007

But I am not saying TC rendered Stoner mistake free ...... I am saying that that is not a viable proposition. I am saying that Stoner was/must be somewhat mistake free otherwise TC would have slowed him down.

On your comment of 08 ..... I really think that Rossi, Stoner and to some extent Pedrosa are always on the limit. What you saw with Stoner 08 and indeed Rossi 07 and Pedrosa 0"all" , was possibly just that these guys are so competitive that when they do crash .... its outside of any possible chance that TC can recover it for them.

To me guys at the level of Rossi and Stoner and Pedrosa ride " perfect, perfect, perfect, ....... big off"

other riders ( at the lower end of the race ) ride " sloppy, fast, mistake, perfect, mistake, well ..... finish"

the upshot of that is .... for every non perfect corner they do TC has slowed them ....... they are still racing and make it to the finish ........ but by that time they have lost a lot of time as they are not experiencing as TC uninhibited a ride as the top guys.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 4 2009, 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But I am not saying TC rendered Stoner mistake free ...... I am saying that that is not a viable proposition. I am saying that Stoner was/must be somewhat mistake free otherwise TC would have slowed him down.
I was basically agreeing with you about stoner and tc, if not your entire argument concerning this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 4 2009, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was basically agreeing with you about stoner and tc.

Well you may think that, however you must have misinterpreted what I have been writing about for quite a while now.

Another way of putting what I have been proposing is ..... Tc cannot make a rider fast ( unless its by the pure act of teaching a rider that he must not make mistakes or he will be slowed by TC) or erratic as you suggest , ......... but it can make a rider slow, and it can help a rider finish the race albeit in a time extended by the action of TC for the mistake the rider committed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 4 2009, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well you may think that, however you must have misinterpreted what I have been writing about for quite a while now.

Another way of putting what I have been proposing is ..... Tc cannot make a rider fast ( unless its by the pure act of teaching a rider that he must not make mistakes or he will be slowed by TC) or erratic as you suggest , ......... but it can make a rider slow, and it can help a rider finish the race albeit in a time extended by the action of TC for the mistake the rider committed.
so you don't think Tc will give some riders a sense of security that will allow them to rider faster than they other would dare ? And the computer corrections made during a lap doesn't result in faster lap times ? I think the evidence proves it does !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 4 2009, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so you don't think Tc will give some riders a sense of security that will allow them to rider faster than they other would dare ? And the computer corrections made during a lap doesn't result in faster lap times ? I think the evidence proves it does !
One has to suspect they would not have bothered expending considerable resources to perfecting tc if it was of no benefit to lap-times.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 4 2009, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>One has to suspect they would not have bothered expending considerable resources to perfecting tc if it was of no benefit to lap-times.
+1

cant argue with the $'s...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Mar 4 2009, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>are you just putting out an opinion, that you dont believe yourself, for the sake of promoting discussion again ?






Nah, I'm just taking the piss!

Pete

If you re-read Spies's claims you will see that he actually said his superbike has more sophisticated electronics than the MotoGP bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Mar 4 2009, 10:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you re-read Spies's claims you will see that he actually said his superbike has more sophisticated electronics than the MotoGP bike.
Really ? Thats not what he says here
.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqxy_YhwTJI

listen from 2 min 50 sec.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Mar 4 2009, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you re-read Spies's claims you will see that he actually said his superbike has more sophisticated electronics than the MotoGP bike.





<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Mar 4 2009, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you re-read Spies's claims you will see that he actually said his superbike has more sophisticated electronics than the MotoGP bike.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Mar 4 2009, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you re-read Spies's claims you will see that he actually said his superbike has more sophisticated electronics than the MotoGP bike.

I watched the video and he says GP bikes are more sophisticated but I still remember that he said his 1000 was more sophisticated than the GSVR's and that is what I am talking about. I will find it if I can.

edit: from ht tp://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/mcn/2008/September/8-14/sep1008-ben-spies-confident-for-indianapolis/?R=EPI-102799g, “Honestly, there are a couple of things that my Superbike has a little more than the GP bike does, so it’s not that they have so much electronics. It’s more of the mechanical grip that the bike has when you compare it to a Superbike. When you throw new tyres on a Superbike, there’s only a certain amount of level that you can step up your riding and go faster.

For sure that is not as clear as I remember reading it in a mag but close.

To be honest, I really think TC makes .... all difference to the racing.
What we need is competative bikes, and preferably some teams that get it wrong occasionally to mix it up.

What we do need is to make MotoGP a profitable sport for independent players, to attract more players.
If axing TC cuts costs, and brings in other teams - who have some hope of competing - then axe TC.
Don't axe TC because you think it will make the racing any better.

SBK has good racing because the bikes are bloody even. They all have the evil electronics and Traction Control.