Ducati going to V-engine

gui22a · Jan 8, 2012

http://www.gpone.com...opo-Wrooom.html

Google-translated: "Following the approach introduced with the 1198 Panigale, in fact, the engine L-90 ° inclinatoi might be a few degrees back, waiting, perhaps, closer to a V, around 75 °. Besides, if you have to follow (and follow) the competition, these seem to be the magic numbers."

Although we don't have the english version yet (and it seems we won't), we can understand clearly through Google translator that Ducati must change the engine angle from 90° to 75°, going more like a V instead of a 90° L.

Sorry for my bad english, but the off-season period is too boring and I'm looking for news like mad.

BarryMachine · Jan 8, 2012

Bout bloody time!

it was ages ago I graciously gave them the cure for their woes! Well part of them woes anyway .........

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=14536&st=140&p=297647&#entry297647

even showed them what tools to use and gave them a drawing:

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=14536&st=180&p=297811&#entry297811

but as to the other part of the woes, I see Rossi is at least trying to find what it is that Stonercould do at age 6:

but hey, they are all having a go at catching up:

http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201201055809/MotoGP-Lorenzo-Torna-presto-Dovi.html

but on a serious side, Ducati really need to do this.

gui22a · Jan 8, 2012

Barry, you should send them your resume.

BTW, very nice powerslide by Rossi. I think he's training to use the new 1000 engine torque better.

I really don't know what's the advantage of a 90° config. Hope Ducati can sort out all the problems.

BarryMachine · Jan 8, 2012

gui22a said:
I really don't know what's the advantage of a 90° config. Hope Ducati can sort out all the problems.

Can't really say myself why 90deg. All I know is a bike feels more stable in a slide ( after its lost traction ) than a vertical cylindered one. But thats on dirt bikes and speedway bikes, to scared to find out how it transposes to tarmac ........ though I have unintentionally have the back out on several 90 degree V twins and its a pretty comfortable stable sensation, the changeover from traction to no traction seems less "twitchy" , ( and thats without the use of back brake or downshift!!

thats for Arab and the skiddy crew

) I'd even venture to say that the loss of traction ( back getting out ) under deceleration, is as gradual and as smooth as for acceleration with a horizontal cylindered machine.

But anyway nobody else is using 90, as the article says ...... the magic number is 75deg.

They have to at least try it.

All this is kinda why the Japs are having a field day. Ducati exhibit the classic Euro problem ........ "all bluster, no brains" or they are "bigheads" .

The japs go about their business in a dignified quiet intelligent way ....... and accomplish the mission.

The Euro's spend more time "big upping" themselves ....... and yet have absolutely no idea what they are doing, and deny the problem exists for years.

But with Rossi going to Duc. .......... humble pie time.

The sad thing is, I now also think they have absolutely no idea of how to engineer the solution.

birdman · Jan 8, 2012

90 degrees was supposed to be better for carbs with more space between cylinders and a straight run for the inlet manifold. Also engine balancing might be better. But those days are long gone with efi and cross-plane cranks so I suppose 90 degrees just kept with tradition.

gui22a · Jan 8, 2012

hmmm I'm not sure if they are king of arrogance. As a completely Euro descendant (1/2 italian, 1/2 portuguese) all I know is that Italians are very competitive (they like to be the best no matter how much it costs - I am so), specially when the subject is engine/bikes.

If there is one thing they're very good at, it's engines. You can see Ducati's engine is always the most powerful on the grid, and you can assure yourself this rule will repeat again this season, specially now that every factory are going to use big bang. Not sure if most of it is tech mastering, but they have a lot of willpower.

But I really don't know why 90.

gui22a · Jan 8, 2012

birdman said:
90 degrees was supposed to be better for carbs with more space between cylinders and a straight run for the inlet manifold. Also engine balancing might be better. But those days are long gone with efi and cross-plane cranks so I suppose 90 degrees just kept with tradition.

it do makes sense.

birdman · Jan 8, 2012

Wiki says:

"A 90° V-twin will, with a correct counterweight, yield perfect primary and secondary balance, and although its firing intervals are uneven, they are not unpleasant. A V-twin with an angle of less than 90° is more compact and has more even firing intervals, but has significantly poorer mechanical balance. Offset crankpins are sometimes used to reduce the resulting vibration."[sup] [/sup]

BarryMachine · Jan 8, 2012

gui22a said:
hmmm I'm not sure if they are king of arrogance. As a completely Euro descendant (1/2 italian, 1/2 portuguese) all I know is that Italians are very competitive (they like to be the best no matter how much it costs - I am so), specially when the subject is engine/bikes.

Yes they like to be .......... but are they?

By what measure have they decided they are the best? ............ In a way this is all part of why Stoner had so much trouble with the Euro fans, even back in 07 the cry was "its all the bike"

Not until those very fans bigheadedly said "wait till Rossi gets on the Duc." did they have to see reality.

gui22a said:
If there is one thing they're very good at, it's engines. You can see Ducati's engine is always the most powerful on the grid, and you can assure yourself this rule will repeat again this season, specially now that every factory are going to use big bang. Not sure if most of it is tech mastering, but they have a lot of willpower.

Again ..... are they? by what measure? I'm pretty sure Honda could get more power out but its all pretty useless if it only goes fast when the bike is in a straight line and will not allow itself to be turned on a horizontal plane centroid.

No ..... I think there is much more humble pie to be eaten before Ducati really get competitive. Not sure they are capable of using that "humble pie" effectively though ........ lets just wait and see if they ever get another win ...... at present I'd say that 1 win and the boppers will go nuts believing its the second coming ...... and Ducati will also. But lets wait and see.

BarryMachine · Jan 8, 2012

birdman said:
Wiki says:

"A 90° V-twin will, with a correct counterweight, yield perfect primary and secondary balance, and although its firing intervals are uneven, they are not unpleasant. A V-twin with an angle of less than 90° is more compact and has more even firing intervals, but has significantly poorer mechanical balance. Offset crankpins are sometimes used to reduce the resulting vibration."[sup] [/sup]

That all rings a bell, but its a bit lost in time now.

In any case I think the 90 degree thing is the secondary problem. The real problem is those almost horizontal cylinders. The 90 probably merely has to be reduced to fit an engine with less horizontally acting pistons.

They'll sort it out, just like they Japs have long ago. I'm sure there's a "sweet spot" that covers the best of all evils, whether its for a bike that turns whilst accelerating or a bike that turns whilst decelerating or is fairly neutral at a constant speed. Just like the Japs have done over the past 20 or more years ....... Ducati will get stuck into the track time and do the essential testing needed to find what they now feel is the best option .

gui22a · Jan 8, 2012

BarryMachine said:
Yes they like to be .......... but are they?

By what measure have they decided they are the best? ............ In a way this is all part of why Stoner had so much trouble with the Euro fans, even back in 07 the cry was "its all the bike"

Not until those very fans bigheadedly said "wait till Rossi gets on the Duc." did they have to see reality.

Again ..... are they? by what measure? I'm pretty sure Honda could get more power out but its all pretty useless if it only goes fast when the bike is in a straight line and will not allow itself to be turned on a horizontal plane centroid.

No ..... I think there is much more humble pie to be eaten before Ducati really get competitive. Not sure they are capable of using that "humble pie" effectively though ........ lets just wait and see if they ever get another win ...... at present I'd say that 1 win and the boppers will go nuts believing its the second coming ...... and Ducati will also. But lets wait and see.

They were the best in 07. That IS a fact. They had the most powerful engine by far, the most electronically developed bike, the best tires and in that time there wasn't frame problems (they used steel trellis). A combination of the best bike plus a rider like Stoner certainly would result in a title, exactly like last year.

I don't know if Honda could extract more power from their engine when they wants. Everybody suffered with Ducati engine in 2007 and both Honda and Yamaha took a lot of time to catch up. At 2009 they still lack power delivery. Even last year Stoner complained the Honda engine was too dull (one of his first impressions). Lorenzo complains every day about it. And, the thing in Ducati most praised by Rossi is? the engine!

Ducati's bike can be ...., but you can never say this of their motors.

digger · Jan 8, 2012

I thought one of the problems with the l twin was that it posed serious problems with the position that it sat in the frame? Ie, it couldn't really be rotated or moved because of its wide layout. Yeah?

michaelm · Jan 8, 2012

gui22a said:
They were the best in 07. That IS a fact. They had the most powerful engine by far, the most electronically developed bike, the best tires and in that time there wasn't frame problems (they used steel trellis). A combination of the best bike plus a rider like Stoner certainly would result in a title, exactly like last year.

I don't know if Honda could extract more power from their engine when they wants. Everybody suffered with Ducati engine in 2007 and both Honda and Yamaha took a lot of time to catch up. At 2009 they still lack power delivery. Even last year Stoner complained the Honda engine was too dull (one of his first impressions). Lorenzo complains every day about it. And, the thing in Ducati most praised by Rossi is? the engine!

Ducati's bike can be ...., but you can never say this of their motors.

They had the most powerful engine in 2007, with an advantage from the desmo valves vs the then current honda and yamaha spring valve engines particularly in a fuel economy formula, and probably some advantage with electronics, or at least an earlier appreciation of the possible utility of electronics. It is and has been widely reported that stoner uses less traction control than most if not all though.

This is a perennial debate on here, but most powerful does not necessarily equal the best, with the aprilia cube providing an extreme example. Ducati quite possibly had the most powerful 990 engine, and their engine quite likely had competitive or better power throughout the 800 formula. Rossi has always said he is quite happy with the power of the ducati engine, but has been directly quoted as saying he found the characteristics of the engine, particularly the power delivery, too extreme.

The thing never handled well , including in 2007, but stoner devised a unique method for getting it through the corners with sufficient rapidity for the straightline advantage to be decisive that year. No-one else, including rossi and troy bayliss, has been able to duplicate that method, and capirossi has been quoted as saying it is impossible to do so.

Barry understands much more about mechanical engineering than I do, but I think that (as well as the power delivery being too abrupt for anyone other than stoner) his theory that the engine configuration is a major problem makes sense, and several pundits agree. His additional speculation that going bigbang may have exacerbated things is also consistent with events, as the thing became really diabolical and unpredictably unstable even for stoner with the advent of the bigbang engine, although other changes were no doubt also made.

My understanding is that they basically put two of their traditional 90 degree V-twins together to make the V4 necessary to be competititve in motogp rather than going 90 degree V4/L4 for other reasons, and that what works with a V-twin may not with a V4.

BarryMachine · Jan 8, 2012

gui22a said:
They were the best in 07. Thats not true

That IS a fact. See above

They had the most powerful engine by far,

the most electronically developed bike, Thats not true

the best tires thats not true

and in that time there wasn't frame problems (they used steel trellis). Only Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki would have enough info to decide that. They use al. frames don't they?

A combination of the best bike ( See above )

plus a rider like Stoner certainly would result in a title, exactly like last year. Last year just answered the question " how come Stoner is obviously a better rider than anybody else and has the wins, but not enough WC's?"

I don't know if Honda could extract more power from their engine when they wants. Everybody suffered with Ducati engine in 2007 and both Honda and Yamaha took a lot of time to catch up. At 2009 they still lack power delivery. Even last year Stoner complained the Honda engine was too dull ( he never called it "too dull" thats not true ) (one of his first impressions). Lorenzo complains every day about it. And, the thing in Ducati most praised by Rossi is? the engine! Thats not true

Ducati's bike can be ...., but you can never say this of their motors. Thats not true, they are running almost horizontal pistons ...... thats not good.

cliche guevara · Jan 8, 2012

if this means a return to screamer config i'm over the moon,no bike ever sounded as good as a screaming desmo.

and yeah the desmo has been crap since 2007 , no need to debate that, see the last 4 years of posts on this board.

i'm not sure how much power is lost when you turn a screamer into a big bang engine, but my thesis has always been that by making the bike "more friendly" in 2010 ,all ducati did was take away power(their only advantage) and predictability(that the thing would slide the moment you touch the throttle). i mean theres a reason why stoner wouldnt ride it like a 250 to keep the wheels in line. he must have felt comfortable with the instability on the bike,otherwise not even a talent like stoner could become a WC

rossi maybe a smooth rider but he certainly isn't a slow/afraid rider, make that duc as fast as it can be again and let the über-talents do the rest.

I'd pay good money to see valentino wring that little ducs neck like casey did

clarkjw · Jan 9, 2012

clarkjw · Jan 9, 2012

Honda, Ducati and Suzuki are all using engines approximating "90 degrees" relative to the crank.

They are ALL using offset cylinders. Kawi and BMW are even doing that on their 1L4s

The mechanical efficiencies gained by this orientation and offset are unquestionable, especially at high RPM

sp

However,

Honda's engine is uniformly above the crank, making an approximate V. They also do some other trick stuff with perfectly oriented counter rotating crankshafts, allowing for closer cylinder placement which makes the engine WAY more compact than Ducati's.

Ducati's engine was originally canted fully forward, making an L. They could lean it back further to approximate a wide V, but it will never be as compact and manageable for mass centralization as the Honda. The budget needed would be insane.

In other words Honda is the .... and spends $300 mil on motorcycle R&D to be so.

Ducati gets $20 mil a year. There's only so much radical engine redesign you can do, no matter how much passion you've got

michaelm · Jan 9, 2012

clarkjw said:
In other words Honda is the .... and spends $300 mil on motorcycle R&D to be so.

Ducati gets $20 mil a year. There's only so much radical engine redesign you can do, no matter how much passion you've got

Yep.

Still reportedly a more compact/ "narrower angle" V-twin for the next ducati street bike and hence superbike though.

BarryMachine · Jan 9, 2012

cliché guevara said:
if this means a return to screamer config i'm over the moon,no bike ever sounded as good as a screaming desmo.

and yeah the desmo has been crap since 2007 , no need to debate that, see the last 4 years of posts on this board.

i'm not sure how much power is lost when you turn a screamer into a big bang engine, but my thesis has always been that by making the bike "more friendly" in 2010 ,all ducati did was take away power(their only advantage) and predictability(that the thing would slide the moment you touch the throttle). i mean theres a reason why stoner wouldnt ride it like a 250 to keep the wheels in line. he must have felt comfortable with the instability on the bike,otherwise not even a talent like stoner could become a WC

rossi maybe a smooth rider but he certainly isn't a slow/afraid rider, make that duc as fast as it can be again and let the über-talents do the rest.

I'd pay good money to see valentino wring that little ducs neck like casey did

But Valentino doesn't ride screamers. Went through that at Yam, and it was the first choice they played with at Duc. for him...... no go ...... Rossi is a railway track rider he doesn't like it wild. Well he didn't but who knows he has evenbuilt himself a flat track like an Aussie dirt track and from the picky above it looks like he's giving it a go ....... when he can do that INTO the corners he may be able to run with the Kurri Kids

BarryMachine · Jan 9, 2012

clarkjw said:
Ducati's engine was originally canted fully forward, making an L. They could lean it back further to approximate a wide V, but it will never be as compact and manageable for mass centralization as the Honda. The budget needed would be insane.

In other words Honda is the .... and spends $300 mil on motorcycle R&D to be so.

Ducati gets $20 mil a year. There's only so much radical engine redesign you can do, no matter how much passion you've got

LOLOL at the bolded bit

I think they have a bigger problem than just thinking centralized static mass. The riders complain that something happens when they crack the throttle mid to out of a corner ....... the front lets go. Ergo, its not just a static mass problem its something dynamic. Thats why I decided its the front cylinder layout. Honda are probably onto a good thing with a narrow V equally vertically placed around the crank. The inline 4 is likely even better if the cylinders are vertical.

Ducati going to V-engine

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