Ducati claimed another victim

Keshav · Jun 7, 2017

yamfan said:
Iannnone once again had more experience on a Ducati.
Marquez wasn't available.
Simples...

Not in his first season he wasn't.

Re: Marquez. Yeah well, no ..... Just saying of the riders in the paddock, he'd be the one to do the job.

birdman · Jun 7, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Regarding Capirossi...Wayne Rainey who had Capirossi ride for him 20 years ago said Capirossi was a guy who rode on talent and was never willing to put the effort in required to be a world champion at the top level. He was lazy.

His performance from 2006 to 2007 supports this. The 990cc Desmo GP6 was a good bike and he did well on it because he didn't have to work as hard on it, and could let his talent takeover. Then the 800cc GP7 came a long and was a very difficult bike to ride. He never came close to matching his 2006 performance while his 21 year old teammate was willing to put in the effort and work required to ride that bike and as we know did so to great effect taking 10 wins along with the world title.

Bayliss, Checa, Gibernau, Crutchlow, Ianone, Redding, Petrucci, Bautista................ any more lightbulbs we could try? Oh yeah the Marquez lightbulb burns bright but I'm sure the Ducati socket would soon short him out. To be fair the lightbulbs ain't the problem and the Ducati socket isn't either. The rules, the tires and the sport in general on the other hand.........

Keshav · Jun 7, 2017

birdman said:
Capirossi, Stoner, Melandri, Hayden, Rossi, Lorenzo. Get another lightbulb you say?

I'll say this, who was the last rider to achieve back to back wins on the Duc? It wasn't Ianone, and it wouldn't be Ianone this year, based on his performance on the Suzuki, or Marquez, based on his performance on the Honda. At this point Ianone would probably have crashed the wingless Duck more times than he'd finished.

If Dovi achieves multiple wins on the Duc this year and contends for the championship then they will have a dilemma, but if Dovi has the one odd inspired win at Mugello on what is undoubtedly his Ducati and that's it there is no doubt, they must and they will redevelop the Ducati around Lorenzo for 2018 to see what he can do.

In the mean time, yeah maybe they will sign some kid as the forth choice rider and get a championship, or maybe lightning will strike Bologna and blow the factory to bits, the odds of either are probably about the same.

Of these, other than Stoner, their results were essentially negligible. Capi had some good results, but on a MUCH different bike, when 4-stroke MotoGp bikes were in their infancy.

Dr No · Jun 7, 2017

Keshav said:
Not in his first season he wasn't.

Re: Marquez. Yeah well, no ..... Just saying of the riders in the paddock, he'd be the one to do the job.

Not so sure. Casey went from a shitbox RCV to a raw, no data Ducati. Whereas, Marquez walked into HRC and was able to take advantage of all the bountiful data from Dani and CS. In fact, I feel it was was one of his advantages when moving to MotoGP; the ability to absorb and integrate what they had learnt (isn't serving him so well now...)
I have a feeling he would be as lost as anyone hopping to Ducati. There just aren't the reams of data pointing to championship leading pace (unless you go back 9 years)

Keshav · Jun 7, 2017

birdman said:
Bayliss, Checa, Gibernau, Crutchlow, Ianone, Redding, Petrucci, Bautista................ any more lightbulbs we could try? Oh yeah the Marquez lightbulb burns bright but I'm sure the Ducati socket would soon short him out. To be fair the lightbulbs ain't the problem and the Ducati socket isn't either. The rules, the tires and the sport in general on the other hand.........

The rules, tires etc are the same for all the factories. It's pretty much universally accepted that the issue for Ducati is they've been dicking
around for years trying to make a chassis that will compensate for
an idiosyncratic engine design. How many riders and tech gurus
have said this over and over again?

At least with The Cube, they knew when to put it on the shelf and start with a clean slate.

michaelm · Jun 7, 2017

Keshav said:
The rules, tires etc are the same for all the factories. It's pretty much universally accepted that the issue for Ducati is they've been dicking
around for years trying to make a chassis that will compensate for
an idiosyncratic engine design. How many riders and tech gurus
have said this over and over again?

At least with The Cube, they knew when to put it on the shelf and start with a clean slate.

There seems to be a fairly general opinion at Ducati, who might be somewhat informed about their own bike, that they haven't been able to get tyres which suit their bike since about 2007. J4Rn0 who has been proven correct about the inner workings of Ducati on many occasions has said this recently.

Dr No · Jun 7, 2017

Keshav said:
The rules, tires etc are the same for all the factories. It's pretty much universally accepted that the issue for Ducati is they've been dicking
around for years trying to make a chassis that will compensate for
an idiosyncratic engine design. How many riders and tech gurus
have said this over and over again?

At least with The Cube, they knew when to put it on the shelf and start with a clean slate.

Yes, but what in particular is idiosyncratic about it? Taller heads from de desmo? Is the ...... bulk of the engine what allows higher output or are they just crap at shrinking stuff down?
I always thought that design agility in small companies gave them a specific advantage...is it Audi bureaucracy interfering? Or just crap processes?

birdman · Jun 7, 2017

Keshav said:
The rules, tires etc are the same for all the factories. It's pretty much universally accepted that the issue for Ducati is they've been dicking
around for years trying to make a chassis that will compensate for
an idiosyncratic engine design. How many riders and tech gurus
have said this over and over again?

At least with The Cube, they knew when to put it on the shelf and start with a clean slate.

Yes, since 2008 when Yamaha got the same tires as Ducati, the writing has been on the wall. And yet, this last round, we got a Ducati win, on a newly introduced mid season tire change that just happened to make Honda look a bit silly, let alone poor old money bags Lorenzo with his back wheel dragging under the strain.

JPSLotus · Jun 7, 2017

birdman said:
Bayliss, Checa, Gibernau, Crutchlow, Ianone, Redding, Petrucci, Bautista................ any more lightbulbs we could try? Oh yeah the Marquez lightbulb burns bright but I'm sure the Ducati socket would soon short him out. To be fair the lightbulbs ain't the problem and the Ducati socket isn't either. The rules, the tires and the sport in general on the other hand.........

Part of the equation is always that you need a capable rider for a given bike.

The Ducati has always required a specific skill set that very few have so the lightbulb will matter for as long as Ducati remains committed to the Desmo engine. Unless they decide to go in a different direction with their engine, you're going to need a really bright lightbulb on the bike. Lorenzo is a much brighter lightbulb on the M1, but the Ducati socket is not a good fit for him. I said last year after reality set in I was not expecting him to win a single race at Ducati. As a fan I was hoping to be proven wrong, but what you see is what you get.

In terms of tolerance windows for rider friendliness, I would rank the Yamaha M1 as the number one bike for friendliness. As you start going down the list of bikes, having a truly great rider who can get the most out of the machine becomes more and more of a requisite.

Besides, why mention Bayliss, Checa, Gibernau, Crutchlow, Redding, Petrucci, etc.? None are/were truly elite riders anyway. And mentioning the first 3 is pointless as the final iteration of the 990cc Ducati was the best bike they ever built in GP even over a decade later.

Sure the tires are a problem for everyone not on a Yamaha M1. But Ducati's problems are further exacerbated by the design of the GP. It's better than where they were from 2007-2012, but it's still a highly specialized bike that will ruin careers.

michaelm · Jun 7, 2017

birdman said:
Yes, since 2008 when Yamaha got the same tires as Ducati, the writing has been on the wall. And yet, this last round, we got a Ducati win, on a newly introduced mid season tire change that just happened to make Honda look a bit silly, let alone poor old money bags Lorenzo with his back wheel dragging under the strain.

The law of unintended consequences.

It has actually worked in Lorenzo's favour tyre-wise on occasion in the past.

michaelm · Jun 7, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Part of the equation is always that you need a capable rider for a given bike.

The Ducati has always required a specific skill set that very few have so the lightbulb will matter for as long as Ducati remains committed to the Desmo engine. Unless they decide to go in a different direction with their engine, you're going to need a really bright lightbulb on the bike. Lorenzo is a much brighter lightbulb on the M1, but the Ducati socket is not a good fit for him. I said last year after reality set in I was not expecting him to win a single race at Ducati. As a fan I was hoping to be proven wrong, but what you see is what you get.

In terms of tolerance windows for rider friendliness, I would rank the Yamaha M1 as the number one bike for friendliness. As you start going down the list of bikes, having a truly great rider who can get the most out of the machine becomes more and more of a requisite.

Besides, why mention Bayliss, Checa, Gibernau, Crutchlow, Redding, Petrucci, etc.? None are/were truly elite riders anyway. And mentioning the first 3 is pointless as the final iteration of the 990cc Ducati was the best bike they ever built in GP even over a decade later.

Sure the tires are a problem for everyone not on a Yamaha M1. But Ducati's problems are further exacerbated by the design of the GP. It's better than where they were from 2007-2012, but it's still a highly specialized bike that will ruin careers.

As we keep saying, it must be a source of incredible frustration that the one guy who definitely fits the odd shaped Ducati socket very well still can be quite easily located since he sits in their garage reasonably frequently.

Ducati look less screwed than Honda just at present btw.

Keshav · Jun 7, 2017

michaelm said:
There seems to be a fairly general opinion at Ducati, who might be somewhat informed about their own bike, that they haven't been able to get tyres which suit their bike since about 2007. J4Rn0 who has been proven correct about the inner workings of Ducati on many occasions has said this recently.

This is the curse of a spec tire. Can't realistically expect Michelin to make a tire suitable to Ducati to the detriment of all other makers. If Ducati continue to see their value as being intrinsically linked to an oddball engine design, they seem unlikely to ever be fully competitive in MotoGp.

Edit: I see JPL has already made the same point.

JPSLotus · Jun 7, 2017

michaelm said:
As we keep saying, it must be a source of incredible frustration that the one guy who definitely fits the odd shaped Ducati socket very well still can be quite easily located since he sits in their garage reasonably frequently.

Ducati look less screwed than Honda just at present btw.

I agree. It is what it is, but I can't imagine that it's not a source of consternation for not only Dall'Igna, but others at the team. But maybe it is for the better since it will continue to put the pressure on Ducati to improve the bike. If you put Stoner on the bike, I have no doubt he would be in contention for the world title, but it would have likely have the not so good side effect of causing them to not continue improving the machine.

JPSLotus · Jun 7, 2017

Keshav said:
This is the curse of a spec tire. Can't realistically expect Michelin to make a tire suitable to Ducati to the detriment of all other makers. If Ducati continue to see their value as being intrinsically linked to an oddball engine design, they seem unlikely to ever be fully competitive in MotoGp.

Edit: I see JPL has already made the same point.

I believe Michelin is designing their tire with the M1 in mind first and to the detriment of every other machine on the grid. Ducati and Honda supply more bikes than any other manufacturer, yet do not get any tire that plays to their strengths.

Keshav · Jun 7, 2017

JPSLotus said:
I believe Michelin is designing their tire with the M1 in mind first and to the detriment of every other machine on the grid. Ducati and Honda supply more bikes than any other manufacturer, yet do not get any tire that plays to their strengths.

From the empiric point of view - that would appear to be the case - tho
the same could be said when Marquez was winning everything in sight.
I suspect Honda is again the victim of their usual tone-deaf approach
to engineering.

Iamapony · Jun 7, 2017

Keshav said:
....... If Ducati continue to see their value as being intrinsically linked to an oddball engine design, they seem unlikely to ever be fully competitive in MotoGp.

This makes little sense to me, since Ducati is constantly winning the HP war. The engine is not screwing up their chassis. I think they were better off before the Rossi/Burgess incorrect change of direction. I am not giving up my engine advantage, either, bub. So forget it.

I really thought Capirossi was the one to beat in 2006. While the accident might not have physically been that serious, it appeared to me that it affected him, and he was never quite the same after that.

Judging these other guys by Stoner's success is folly. There is little correlation. In hindsight, it actually appears that Nicky was pretty damn good on the Ducati compared to most.

Keshav · Jun 7, 2017

Iamapony said:
This makes little sense to me, since Ducati is constantly winning the HP war. The engine is not screwing up their chassis. I think they were better off before the Rossi/Burgess incorrect change of direction. I am not giving up my engine advantage, either, bub. So forget it.

I really thought Capirossi was the one to beat in 2006. While the accident might not have physically been that serious, it appeared to me that it affected him, and he was never quite the same after that.

Judging these other guys by Stoner's success is folly. There is little correlation. In hindsight, it actually appears that Nicky was pretty damn good on the Ducati compared to most.

Amigo - seems to me you're too well versed in this stuff for me to have to reply with the age-old answer to your view on this.

HP - don't mean .... if you can't successfully keep the rubber on the road and the bike pointed where you actually want to go. The agonies that Ducati have endured (to say nothing of the expense) in their efforts to design a chassis that can accommodate their large ungainly engine low enough to have optimum center of gravity without making the wheelbase so long that the bike won't turn, are well documented. This is not fan-boy speculation. Keven Cameron has written extensively on this. I've lost count of the number of riders who have out and out said, The Ducati won't turn like the Jap bikes.

Iamapony · Jun 7, 2017

They revised their engine in 2015. They did a moderation in 2016. They have revised it again in 2017. I think your information is dated. Dovi is not a rider who manhandles a motorcycle and he just won a race on a pretty tough track. He may have had "home court" advantage, but I don't think he would have won that race on a bike that couldn't turn.

They may need more chassis work, but I don't see KTM or Aprilia breathing down their neck, do you? Again, I would not give up the HP advantage. I think it works. If Stoner was there or Marquez, I don't think you would question the engine at all. My opinion, of course.

michaelm · Jun 7, 2017

Keshav said:
Amigo - seems to me you're too well versed in this stuff for me to have to reply with the age-old answer to your view on this.

HP - don't mean .... if you can't successfully keep the rubber on the road and the bike pointed where you actually want to go. The agonies that Ducati have endured (to say nothing of the expense) in their efforts to design a chassis that can accommodate their large ungainly engine low enough to have optimum center of gravity without making the wheelbase so long that the bike won't turn, are well documented. This is not fan-boy speculation. Keven Cameron has written extensively on this. I've lost count of the number of riders who have out and out said, The Ducati won't turn like the Jap bikes.

I think everyone is well aware of this.

It does go back to my long term hobby horse though, I don't see why the tyres are restricted to those which suit only particular bikes and riding styles, and why Ducati should be forced to move from their traditional engine which they claim to be able to make work with the right tyres; perhaps the jury is still out after last week-end as to how they are suited to the latest variety of Michelin anyway.

In the end I believe the control tyre is here to stay rightly or wrongly though (wrongly imo, but that is a battle fought and resolved a decade ago), and I doubt anything much in the way of a wider variety of tyres will be provided, so I think you are correct, either Ducati designs a completely new engine or goes back to WSBK as when the formula was 500 2 strokes which didn't accord with Ducati's basic engine design either.

JPSLotus · Jun 8, 2017

Jorge Lorenzo says he is finding the riding style required to master Ducati’s MotoGP bike “a little bit illogical” after nine years with Yamaha.

The three-time premier-class champion sits seventh in the standings six races into his Ducati career, with a single podium to his name from Jerez.

Having run at the front briefly in the most recent race at Mugello - albeit more due to what he considered bravery than speed - he ultimately finished eighth in a race won by team-mate Andrea Dovizioso.

Asked what he could learn from Dovizioso’s data as he looks to continue to adapt his own riding style, Lorenzo said: “Believe me, I'm trying everything to take the maximum of this bike.

“I change the [riding] position at every race, the hand levers, rear brake, the seat. I try to see all the data of all the Ducati riders to understand where I lose. I try everything.

“But from 20 years riding the same way you cannot change just like this - you cannot learn a new language in two days. Everything is complicated. This bike you have to ride it a little bit illogical to be competitive. It's the opposite of the Yamaha.

“For the moment I can do races so-so. Sometimes good races, not excellent. Normally, for the moment, so-so.

“When I will feel confident with the bike and the bike feels like mine I will again do excellent races.”

Other than his rookie season, 2008, Lorenzo finished either first of second each year at Mugello with Yamaha, a run that included victories in five of his last six Italian Grand Prix starts.

The Spaniard said Mugello summed up where he is at with Ducati, as he looks to find more time under braking and work within the bike’s mid-corner deficiency.

“The Yamaha was probably was more natural for my riding,” he said.

“With the Yamaha I was fast from the first three races in 2008. [At Mugello] I finished on the podium for eight years.

“For the moment [the Ducati] is not natural for me, even if I try my best and am a more complete rider than when I started in MotoGP.

“But probably is the opposite riding style that the bike demands at this moment.

“So I'm working with Gigi [Dall’Igna, general manager] and the engineers to make the bike turn better, but until this happens it will depend a lot on which track and also will be important to see the speed that I am able to change my riding.”

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ducati-bike-demands-illogical-riding-style-lorenzo-915441/

Nothing terribly surprising here. While I agree with him that you can't change your riding style overnight, I also think it's increasingly looking as if this is not going to occur.

Ducati claimed another victim

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