Ducati claimed another victim

michaelm · Apr 20, 2017

yamfan said:
The 2007 bike was the first 800cc Ducati, it might share similarities but was definitely a different bike buddy.

I think Migs is right and wrong.

Certainly the 2006 Ducati was very competitive with 4 race wins and Capirossi right in the mix for the championship before the injury, and I think Ducati was regarded as having good prospects for 2007, and had in fact signed Melandri who looked like the next best rider at the time for 2008, with Stoner a 1 year stopgap in the interim until Marco was available.

The 2007 bike at the time was regarded as having a huge advantage, which it did in a straight line, and also as "the bike which rode itself", Ducati having apparently stolen a march electronics wise. All indications are that it was on the contrary extremely difficult to ride, Capirossi mostly being mediocre on it, and Melandri not being able to ride it at all in the post-season test, pretty much realising his fate at Ducati after a couple of laps.

Arrabbiata1 · Apr 20, 2017

michaelm said:
I think Ducati was regarded as having good prospects for 2007, and had in fact signed Melandri who looked like the next best rider at the time for 2008, with Stoner a 1 year stopgap in the interim until Marco was available.

Ducati may have had him on their wish list with Stoner as an interim rider, but actually that deal wasn't confirmed until Laguna 2007. Melandri was at Gresini Honda at the time. I remember this very well, because it was an outstanding show of guts determination and commitment from Marco. Kurtis Roberts took Melandri out in practice between turn 3 and 4 dislocating his ankle in the process. He didn't even ride in the morning warm up but knew that he needed to be placed in the top six in the championship standings before the break to be offered the seat at Ducati. Without pain killing injections, he couldn't even switch gear. In the race he fought from deep on the grid (row four as I recall), passing four riders on the first lap and fighting his way past Rossi and Pedrosa. To catch Vermeulen was too big an ask (Laguna was one of the few places the GSV actually liked because it wasn't leant over for long - and Chris had won races there in WSS/WSB ). However, the third place secured the 2008 contract ...and ultimately for his troubles, a referral to a shrink.

Gaz · Apr 20, 2017

MigsAngel said:
Where did you get that from....?

Capirossi was 3rd in 2006 on the Duc, and could have won the title that year had his teammate not taken him out in Barcelona...
Ducati was a very capable package when Stoner arrived in the team in 2007....

But still it was the third best bike on the grid based on your correlation that 2006 performance equates to 2007 starting point as it was beaten by a Honda and Yamaha.

Hell, based on the 'capable package' component, a KR211 was worthy as well if they continued as it finished 6th (beaten by 1 x Ducati, 1 x Yamaha and 3 x Honda)..

Perhaps the difference in 2006 just may have been rider as it could easily be said of the Yamaha

Segfault · Apr 24, 2017

Sad, deep inside I was hoping I'm wrong and Lorenzo can make it. But it is like I said: You go fast right away on a new bike or it will never happen. I do not see Lorenzo winning anything on that bike, not the title he was hired for.

almoto · Apr 24, 2017

On The Record: Andrea Dovizioso, Ducati Team | Cycle World

Andrea D. talkes about the Ducati:

Interesting

JPSLotus · Apr 24, 2017

almoto said:
On The Record: Andrea Dovizioso, Ducati Team | Cycle World

Andrea D. talkes about the Ducati

Couple of key takeaways...

To speak about chassis and stiffness and rigidity is very difficult because I believe this is one point where we still don’t have everything under control.

Every race is different with Michelin. They are developing a lot. So, every race they bring something different—sometimes small, sometimes big. It’s not easy to manage.

For sure, the Michelin front tire is not good enough. They have to do something new.

So Michelin is ....... with their tires from race to race. There is the proof.

And as I have long said, the Michelin front tire is ..... Not that Dovizioso will state that outright, but Michelin makes a subpar front tire and have been since they returned.

almoto · Apr 24, 2017

Jorge after the race:

Jorge Lorenzo, P9: “All in all, the race went better than I expected, at least regarding my pace over practice and qualifying. Today I was faster than ever on race pace, I never did that pace in practice and I was catching Andrea in the middle of the race. For sure we cannot be satisfied with the final position, because our target is certainly much higher, but in feeling and pace we made a small step forward in this race. It all went more or less how I expected until the front tyre began to have some graining and I lost touch with Dovizioso. Without this problem, I think I could have finished the race right behind him but the situation got worse over the last few laps. When Iannone caught me he passed very aggressively and I lost a couple of seconds there, then Petrucci caught me too. Ninth isn’t what we’re here for because we’re here to fight with Yamaha and Honda, but at the moment that’s not possible. But the positive is we were much closer than before.”

MotoGP?

.

almoto · Apr 24, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Couple of key takeaways...

So Michelin is ....... with their tires from race to race. There is the proof.

And as I have long said, the Michelin front tire is ..... Not that Dovizioso will state that outright, but Michelin makes a subpar front tire and have been since they returned.

Maverick's take on the Michelin's:

The Movistar Yamaha rider was at a loss to explain it. Speaking late on Sunday afternoon, he could only shake his head in disbelief. "I don’t know," he said. "I’m like you now. I don’t know. We check everything. It was all the same. The same speed. Even it was a little bit lower speed than in the morning. We had the same fuel in the tank, so it was a strange crash. I can’t tell you anything about it. It happened."

Viñales did his best not to blame Michelin for the crash, while simultaneously making it clear he believed the front tire was to blame. "I didn’t feel so good with the front tire already from the first lap," he said. "Something strange. I know the tire was not as good as this morning. For sure because on the left side I had some warning on the second lap, at the start of the second lap."

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2017/04/24/2017_austin_motogp_sunday_round_up.html

michaelm · Apr 24, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Couple of key takeaways...

So Michelin is ....... with their tires from race to race. There is the proof.

And as I have long said, the Michelin front tire is ..... Not that Dovizioso will state that outright, but Michelin makes a subpar front tire and have been since they returned.

When are you going to give up on these conspiracy theories. You have even got Dovi and Vinales joining in.

JPSLotus · Apr 24, 2017

michaelm said:
When are you going to give up on these conspiracy theories. You have even got Dovi and Vinales joining in.

I'm sure a few enterprising posters here can resort to ad hominem attacks on me rather than acknowledge my points about the Michelin tires from pre-season testing in 2016 through now haven't been without merit.

Dorna and Michelin are engaging in what I feel is a dangerous game with the tire shenanigans as it's again having a very real impact on the championship battle. It just continues to hammer home for me anyway that the spec tire rule may have been well-intentioned originally, but has long gone away from original intent...and is obviously open to manipulation by the interested parties with a stake in certain outcomes.

Vinales' comments about the tire feeling different would indicate Michelin's quality control is abysmal. He did exceptionally well on the Medium/Medium tire pairing the entire weekend he used it, and then on race day he finds the medium front tire has taken on a slightly different feel? Yes it was much warmer on Sunday afternoon, but I see no reason to question Vinales' assessment as he would know better than anyone.

p4p1 · Apr 24, 2017

Vinaeles sounds exactly the same as Marquez sounded in Argentina. I didn't do anything different but I crashed this time.

I actually thought during the qualifying press conference the riders were quite open about tyres even Rossi. I remember Rossi said that it was only 5 or 6 degrees cooler so it shouldn't make a difference on the tyres but it did and much more than could've been expected. The low operational range of the Michelins was talked about a lot. They're just not good enough and given how often Marquez talks about the conditions when asked about if he can win, all the riders have a problem with the tyres as well.

michaelm · Apr 24, 2017

JPSLotus said:
I'm sure a few enterprising posters here can resort to ad hominem attacks on me rather than acknowledge my points about the Michelin tires from pre-season testing in 2016 through now haven't been without merit.

Dorna and Michelin are engaging in what I feel is a dangerous game with the tire shenanigans as it's again having a very real impact on the championship battle. It just continues to hammer home for me anyway that the spec tire rule may have been well-intentioned originally, but has long gone away from original intent...and is obviously open to manipulation by the interested parties with a stake in certain outcomes.

Vinales' comments about the tire feeling different would indicate Michelin's quality control is abysmal. He did exceptionally well on the Medium/Medium tire pairing the entire weekend he used it, and then on race day he finds the medium front tire has taken on a slightly different feel? Yes it was much warmer on Sunday afternoon, but I see no reason to question Vinales' assessment as he would know better than anyone.

I wouldn't exclude incompetence. I am not sure Michelin have ever been very good at making front tyres for GP bike racing.

My long term perhaps 'conspiracy' theory is that Carmelo got the idea from Bernie a while back that bad tyres are 'good for racing' though.

Theo · Apr 24, 2017

What beats me is Michelin make good road tyres, but they are not very good at racing.
I think it should be open for any tyre manufacturer to supply the teams.

Segfault · Apr 24, 2017

Michelin tires are off my shopping list forever ... after they ruined the F1 race in the US.

Segfault · Jun 6, 2017

Let's sum it up.
Stoner was appointed by Ducati to help Lorenzo any way he can. Lorenzo broke up this relationship. I do not know why, maybe he realized he cannot follow Stoner's advice due to lack of special skills? Now Lorenzo is in disagreement with Dovizioso about development direction. Apparently Dovizioso wants to develop Ducati and Lorenzo wants Ducati to build a Yamaha for him.

Anyone still believes my initial post is wrong?

JPSLotus · Jun 6, 2017

Segfault said:
Let's sum it up.
Stoner was appointed by Ducati to help Lorenzo any way he can. Lorenzo broke up this relationship. I do not know why, maybe he realized he cannot follow Stoner's advice due to lack of special skills? Now Lorenzo is in disagreement with Dovizioso about development direction. Apparently Dovizioso wants to develop Ducati and Lorenzo wants Ducati to build a Yamaha for him.

Anyone still believes my initial post is wrong?

Would you mind providing a link to where it says Lorenzo is in disagreement with Dovi? I hadn't read anything to that effect yet. Not doubting you, just would like to see the story.

J4rn0 · Jun 6, 2017

Segfault said:
Let's sum it up.
Stoner was appointed by Ducati to help Lorenzo any way he can. Lorenzo broke up this relationship. I do not know why, maybe he realized he cannot follow Stoner's advice due to lack of special skills? Now Lorenzo is in disagreement with Dovizioso about development direction. Apparently Dovizioso wants to develop Ducati and Lorenzo wants Ducati to build a Yamaha for him.

Anyone still believes my initial post is wrong?

Well, I for one know there is truth in what you say. If it is intuition on yor part, it's pretty close to the mark.

Everything still depends on track results, so everything is possible, but patience is getting thin at Ducati top levels. In the end, if Lorenzo fails to deliver, it could be Dovi saving Dall'Igna's job. The irony of it...

JPSLotus · Jun 6, 2017

J4rn0 said:
Well, I for one know there is truth in what you say. If it is intuition on yor part, it's pretty close to the mark.

Everything still depends on track results, so everything is possible, but patience is getting thin at Ducati top levels. In the end, if Lorenzo fails to deliver, it could be Dovi saving Dall'Igna's job. The irony of it...

Do you still believe Lorenzo comes back for 2018?

If I'm Gigi, I would cut him loose at the end of 2017 assuming there is any type of clause that allows for it. I love Lorenzo, but I wouldn't risk my job for him at this point. Better to find another rider who has a style that could match up with the Ducati.

Arrabbiata1 · Jun 6, 2017

Segfault said:
Anyone still believes my initial post is wrong?

Yes...because it has nothing really to do with what you just said, which is highly plausible.

Unfortunately your original post said this...

Segfault said:
First, talking about "changing the riding style" is B/S. For instance Casey Stoner has no riding style, he just rides every/any bike the way it needs to be ridden.
Second. When riding a bike new to you there is some break-in period for rider, true. But it takes minutes, not days or weeks! If you are not going fast after 20-30 minutes on the bike you will never go fast on that bike. Period.

See my earlier reply.

Oh yeah, there was this bit too...

Segfault said:
Why I'm saying this?
Because I have been racing myself and know how it is.

J4rn0 · Jun 6, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Do you still believe Lorenzo comes back for 2018?

If I'm Gigi, I would cut him loose at the end of 2017 assuming there is any type of clause that allows for it. I love Lorenzo, but I wouldn't risk my job for him at this point. Better to find another rider who has a style that could match up with the Ducati.

It all depends on the results. There is still some time, assuming Lorenzo is still confident he can do it.

Ducati claimed another victim

michaelm

Arrabbiata1

Blue Smoker

Gaz

Segfault

almoto

JPSLotus

almoto

almoto

michaelm

JPSLotus

p4p1

michaelm

Theo

Segfault

Segfault

JPSLotus

J4rn0

JPSLotus

Arrabbiata1

Blue Smoker

J4rn0

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