Duc still tight lipped on frame design

Geonerd said:

You've got to wonder who they stole the chassis parameters from!

I'm sure JB has, over the years, accumulated a fair amount of data regarding dimensions, thicknesses, etc. But does he know the actual stiffness values for each component, etc? Is that the sort of thing Yamaha would reveal? (Or would they simply say, "Here's a new swing arm, it's a little stiffer in this or that dimension. Try it and tell us how it goes.") If JB does have intimate knowledge, isn't sharing that with Ducati a violation of the confidentiality clause he no doubt signed?



There are a bazillion ways to weld up an aluminum frame. In the past, big companies like Honda have produced dozens of variations in a single year. (And even Honda has screwed up on occasion - remember Pedrosa wobbling down the straights a few years back?) What are the odds that Duc just happened to throw together a few random bits of extrusion and hit somewhere near the sweet spot on the first try? Slim to none, IMO.



ESPIONAGE is afoot! I predict a Spy-gate scandal to erupt by the middle of next year.

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Wow. Are you sure?



Yamaha have a IL4 engine, Ducati a V4 with a 90° angle. How can Ducati ever copy a Yamaha frame and put their engine in it? Impossible. They need a completely different one. Perhaps Honda would be a better model, assuming they also narrow the angle of their V. Still... How to get the blueprints? Or a specimen to reverse-engineer?



One could argue that dissecting a Yamaha frame would anyway be interesting for the engineers at Ducati. And Rossi has not one but 4 Yamahas at home! Pity the bikes in Vale's bedroom cannot be used for that. In order to reverse-engineer a frame you have to destroy it, make it literally to pieces. This is one thing that Valentino cannot do with "his" Yamahas, because not only it would break his heart, but more importantly he's not the owner of the bikes: the owner is still Yamaha. They have given the bikes to the rider indefinitely for free, with a lease formula and a long contract: he cannot sell them nor give them away to any third party without Yamaha's permission. They are not stupid at Iwata: end of another conspiracy theory.



The only useful blueprints of Yamaha and Honda available to Ducati are in Rossi's and JB's heads: they will not know the manufacturing data or process, but they know how the things behave, what is possible to do with them. So they can give very precise indications. It is up to the Ducati engineers trying to translate those indications into a design of their own. They hired two ex-Aprilia frame specialists for that. Then they gave the design to an external company (or two) for building, that in turn have extensive experience in that field. So they can tap a whole lot of expertize. Thats' fair: they are paying to use that knowledge.



Last but not least, AFAIK what they have tested is still the well known Ducati concept: the engine is still fully stressed, but they have changed the front frame with an aluminum one that bolts on the engine where the trellis used to (and is therefore a little longer). A real twin spar is also in the works, I believe, but has not yet been tested. Probably a modified engine is also required for that more radical change.

J4rn0 said:

. I heard they are using both FTR and Suter for building two different frames, so it could be that... .

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Maybe they should put in a call to Moriwaki and have three.



Well, good for them, it seems we have our first CRT team, and its looking good. That was just one day, so I imagine with 3 days like a race weekend, they would have improved quite a bit more. For the record, I predicted this would happen during the preseason testing.



So are you getting excited J4rno? I admit, they finally look to be making progress. ...., we already have a .1 evolution of the GP12. Are you ready to declare that Ducati are pulling out all the stops?

J4rn0 said:

Wow. Are you sure?

Yamaha have a IL4 engine, Ducati a V4 with a 90° angle. How can Ducati ever copy a Yamaha frame and put their engine in it? Impossible. They need a completely different one. Perhaps Honda would be a better model, assuming they also narrow the angle of their V. Still... How to get the blueprints? Or a specimen to reverse-engineer?

Click to expand...

The twin beam arrangement makes it relatively easy to fit any engine beneath the frame. No one is saying you wouldn't have to modify things a bit...

One could argue that dissecting a Yamaha frame would anyway be interesting for the engineers at Ducati. And Rossi has not one but 4 Yamahas at home! Pity the bikes in Vale's bedroom cannot be used for that. In order to reverse-engineer a frame you have to destroy it, make it literally to pieces. This is one thing that Valentino cannot do with "his" Yamahas, because not only it would break his heart, but more importantly he's not the owner of the bikes: the owner is still Yamaha. They have given the bikes to the rider indefinitely for free, with a lease formula and a long contract: he cannot sell them nor give them away to any third party without Yamaha's permission. They are not stupid at Iwata: end of another conspiracy theory.

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Piffle! No need to destroy the frame. Cat CAT scanners, strain gauges, etc will determine wall thicknesses, flex characteristics, and anything else of interest.



As for Valentino's 'heart,' who here thinks he'd hesitate to sacrifice one of his old beaters for a chance to get back on the podium?! Not me!

The only useful blueprints of Yamaha and Honda available to Ducati are in Rossi's and JB's heads: they will not know the manufacturing data or process, but they know how the things behave, what is possible to do with them. So they can give very precise indications. It is up to the Ducati engineers trying to translate those indications into a design of their own. They hired two ex-Aprilia frame specialists for that. Then they gave the design to an external company (or two) for building, that in turn have extensive experience in that field. So they can tap a whole lot of expertise. Thats' fair: they are paying to use that knowledge.

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And what experience does Aprilia have with MotoGP? Yea right, none!! Even with all that wonderful touchy-feely input from J and V, building an 800/1000 frame that will work straight out of the box is beyond them. Even if you cloned the RSV Biaggi has developed (Oh, the delicious irony!), it would require significant modifications to work properly with the Bridgestone bricks, MotoGP electronics, etc.

Last but not least, AFAIK what they have tested is still the well known Ducati concept: the engine is still fully stressed, but they have changed the front frame with an aluminum one that bolts on the engine where the trellis used to (and is therefore a little longer). A real twin spar is also in the works, I believe, but has not yet been tested. Probably a modified engine is also required for that more radical change.

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I've heard the 'twin spar' phrase thrown around with regard to this test. That's what I assumed they were running. Maybe you're right. All kidding aside, a full-on new frame shouldn't be expected to go so well without a lot of development. A mystery modification, OTOH, has a slightly (Remember, this is Ducati!) better chance of working as advertised.



Hopefully some manner of truth will surface in time...

Geonerd said:

You've got to wonder who they stole the chassis parameters from!

I'm sure JB has, over the years, accumulated a fair amount of data regarding dimensions, thicknesses, etc. But does he know the actual stiffness values for each component, etc? Is that the sort of thing Yamaha would reveal? (Or would they simply say, "Here's a new swing arm, it's a little stiffer in this or that dimension. Try it and tell us how it goes.") If JB does have intimate knowledge, isn't sharing that with Ducati a violation of the confidentiality clause he no doubt signed?



There are a bazillion ways to weld up an aluminum frame. In the past, big companies like Honda have produced dozens of variations in a single year. (And even Honda has screwed up on occasion - remember Pedrosa wobbling down the straights a few years back?) What are the odds that Duc just happened to throw together a few random bits of extrusion and hit somewhere near the sweet spot on the first try? Slim to none, IMO.



ESPIONAGE is afoot! I predict a Spy-gate scandal to erupt by the middle of next year.

Click to expand...

I'm one of the least tech-knowledgeable guys here, but seems to me when you take into account how different the

shape, weight and power characteristics are from the Yamaha, Uncle Jerry's knowledge of Yamaha's chassis

parameters would be of limited value, especially when you consider the sheer number of failed attempts by

Yamaha before coming up with a frame that works.

Jumkie said:

Maybe they should put in a call to Moriwaki and have three.



Well, good for them, it seems we have our first CRT team, and its looking good. That was just one day, so I imagine with 3 days like a race weekend, they would have improved quite a bit more. For the record, I predicted this would happen during the preseason testing.



So are you getting excited J4rno? I admit, they finally look to be making progress. ...., we already have a .1 evolution of the GP12. Are you ready to declare that Ducati are pulling out all the stops?

Click to expand...

Excited, you say? This has been going way too slow, nothing to get excited about. Ducati has not been very willing to do anything radical, in spite of your declarations that they would be moving heaven and earth "for Rossi" (they were not ready to do that!). They thought the GP12, designed in 2010, was the weapon and that Rossi should adjust to it... It has taken Rossi painstakingly exhausting all the setup possibilities of the GP11 and GP11.1 and recently the Sponsor finally telling Borgo Panigale to cut the hesitations and do whatever has to be done, to produce the result that we are beginning to see now. It was a slow process.

So finally they are doing something more concrete, hopefully in the right direction, and as a Ducati aficionado I surely wish them success, as I always did. It will not be as easy as Geo seems to think, but there certainly is a base to build on if they finally listen to you.

J4rn0 said:

Excited, you say? This has been going way too slow, nothing to get excited about. Ducati has not been very willing to do anything radical, in spite of your declarations that they would be moving heaven and earth "for Rossi" (they were not ready to do that!). They thought the GP12, designed in 2010, was the weapon and that Rossi should adjust to it... It has taken Rossi painstakingly exhausting all the setup possibilities of the GP11 and GP11.1 and recently the Sponsor finally telling Borgo Panigale to cut the hesitations and do whatever has to be done, to produce the result that we are beginning to see now. It was a slow process.

So finally they are doing something more concrete, hopefully in the right direction, and as a Ducati aficionado I surely wish them success, as I always did. It will not be as easy as Geo seems to think, but there certainly is a base to build on if they finally listen to you.

Click to expand...

Hear that Jum? They've been following your posts and finally got their thumbs out of their butts.