I think I agree with the viewpoint that if Suzuki wanted to come back they should just give factory backing to an already established privateer team. That way if they decide to pull out again then there is no void to be filled because the privateer team could just hook on with another factory or be a CRT team.
Joined Jul 2011
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Kropotkin
Yes it is. The prototype is close enough with some luck. Even Rossi went from the usual 7th to score a dry podium at Misano. And Marc Marquez could open the throttle earlier and harder than the others even on the poor old Suzuki and fire it on the podium. On a CRT there is no chance.
Seriously Ducati took Stoner to a surprise title, why is it so unlikely given stable rules that it wont ever happen again, maybe even with Marquez on a Suzuki if he ever gets bored and wants a real challenge. Dont burn your bridges Dorna, let Suzuki back in.
Yes it is. The prototype is close enough with some luck. Even Rossi went from the usual 7th to score a dry podium at Misano. And Marc Marquez could open the throttle earlier and harder than the others even on the poor old Suzuki and fire it on the podium. On a CRT there is no chance.
Seriously Ducati took Stoner to a surprise title, why is it so unlikely given stable rules that it wont ever happen again, maybe even with Marquez on a Suzuki if he ever gets bored and wants a real challenge. Dont burn your bridges Dorna, let Suzuki back in.
birdman
I agree with most of this. The only thing I disagree with is that it appears that Ducati benefited from the change in rules not the other way around. And for the record I'm not saying they benefited from the rules themselves, merely they outsmarted the Japanese at their own game and jumped ahead.
Although now that i think about it, in Suzuki's case it seems every time they got close to the front the rules changed and they were back at mid pack again. So maybe stable is good for them. Who knows...
I agree with most of this. The only thing I disagree with is that it appears that Ducati benefited from the change in rules not the other way around. And for the record I'm not saying they benefited from the rules themselves, merely they outsmarted the Japanese at their own game and jumped ahead.
Although now that i think about it, in Suzuki's case it seems every time they got close to the front the rules changed and they were back at mid pack again. So maybe stable is good for them. Who knows...
Joined Jul 2011
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bluegreen
Having Suzuki back, even for just one year, would have at least enabled a bit of good publicity for a sport that is falling fast. Why slam the door in their face, just plain stupid by Ezpeleta as usual. No much better to continue with the combative tactics and get some more negative press out how he told Suzuki to .... off, i guess he gets some of his pathetic pride back after losing the standoff with Honda over the control ecu software. Taking it out on the wrong company, complete ...... I wouldnt be surprised if honda walked as they threatened to the spineless twit Ezpeleta would have gone begging Suzuki to come back. He obviously doesnt realize he may need the likes of Suzuki one day far more then they need him or his idea of 'entertainment'.
The little guys are not going to compete for championships or even podiums year in year out. They will get it right once a decade if lucky. I dont think Ducati outsmarted anyone. More like dumb luck making a bike only one rider could win on then picking that same rider but only as the fourth choice while waiting for Melandri. Is this great thinking? What if Melandri signed on in 2007, i dont think Ducati would look too smart. The rule change just appears to benefit them, in reality they could have signed Stoner to ride the 990 with bridgestone and it would have been much the same. Similar with Suzuki. Every now and then they get lucky, things align but not if the rules change so much they cant even run the same engine for more than a year or two.
Having Suzuki back, even for just one year, would have at least enabled a bit of good publicity for a sport that is falling fast. Why slam the door in their face, just plain stupid by Ezpeleta as usual. No much better to continue with the combative tactics and get some more negative press out how he told Suzuki to .... off, i guess he gets some of his pathetic pride back after losing the standoff with Honda over the control ecu software. Taking it out on the wrong company, complete ...... I wouldnt be surprised if honda walked as they threatened to the spineless twit Ezpeleta would have gone begging Suzuki to come back. He obviously doesnt realize he may need the likes of Suzuki one day far more then they need him or his idea of 'entertainment'.
birdman
What looks more stupid: welcoming Suzuki back, and then watching them .... off again after a year (which I would put at about a 60% chance of happening), or telling them they can only come back if they sign up for 5 years?
What looks more stupid: welcoming Suzuki back, and then watching them .... off again after a year (which I would put at about a 60% chance of happening), or telling them they can only come back if they sign up for 5 years?
Joined May 2008
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Southern Aridzona - Hell's doorstep.
Kropotkin
Sure, Zook may bail again. So what? (Life is that way sometimes.... What's truly stupid is trying so hard to control the behavior of others.) Carmello should take what's offered and worry more about what he can do to get Aprillia, BMW, Kawi, etc. to sign on.
Sure, Zook may bail again. So what? (Life is that way sometimes.... What's truly stupid is trying so hard to control the behavior of others.) Carmello should take what's offered and worry more about what he can do to get Aprillia, BMW, Kawi, etc. to sign on.
birdman
Ha! Touché.
I was trying to keep the riders out of this discussion. But yes, no Stoner, no championship in '07. But Ducati does deserve some credit for this, I don't believe the bike at that point was the dog it later became, as Stoner's results show. And the bike was so fast people were openly questioning the amount of fuel it was carrying. The Japanese were not caught with their pants down two seasons in a row. Anyway, now that I've opened this can of worms again...
As for Suzuki, I have read countless posts on this site surmising this is what the MSMA (Honda) have been attempting for years. Up until very recently they controlled the rulebook and they used those rules to price everybody else out. Well it happened. And now Carmelo is to blame? Suzuki in the last few years were not living up to their end on the bargain, Dorna are concerned this is going to happen again and don't want to displace a current team for a factory that may just pull out again with little to no warning. I don't really blame them.
Ha! Touché.
I was trying to keep the riders out of this discussion. But yes, no Stoner, no championship in '07. But Ducati does deserve some credit for this, I don't believe the bike at that point was the dog it later became, as Stoner's results show. And the bike was so fast people were openly questioning the amount of fuel it was carrying. The Japanese were not caught with their pants down two seasons in a row. Anyway, now that I've opened this can of worms again...
As for Suzuki, I have read countless posts on this site surmising this is what the MSMA (Honda) have been attempting for years. Up until very recently they controlled the rulebook and they used those rules to price everybody else out. Well it happened. And now Carmelo is to blame? Suzuki in the last few years were not living up to their end on the bargain, Dorna are concerned this is going to happen again and don't want to displace a current team for a factory that may just pull out again with little to no warning. I don't really blame them.
stiefel
I know everybody conveniently forgets this for whatevercoughRossicough reason but Pedrosa was the straw that broke that back. He switched mid season. Honda wasn't doing Michelin any favors. If Honda tells Pedrosa to suck it up is Michelin still around?
How about this, no 800's in the first place? Or engine rule? Or 22L rule?
Would Suzuki still be around? I'm guessing yes. And who drew up these rules? MSMA...
I know everybody conveniently forgets this for whatevercoughRossicough reason but Pedrosa was the straw that broke that back. He switched mid season. Honda wasn't doing Michelin any favors. If Honda tells Pedrosa to suck it up is Michelin still around?
How about this, no 800's in the first place? Or engine rule? Or 22L rule?
Would Suzuki still be around? I'm guessing yes. And who drew up these rules? MSMA...
Joined Jul 2011
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Kropotkin
You think the Suzuki marketing and racing department are sitting there thinking "hey we have a great idea to get some good exposure for the brand, lets join motogp for a year then bail out again as losers!! People will flock to the stores to buy Suzuki's!!"
No Krop, if Suzuki are testing a new inline four motogp bike and want to rejoin, they want to rejoin for as long as they can use that engine. Which at present would be about one year. They have much more to lose than Nakamoto's bum chum Ezpeleta. Who knows what the rules will be in 5 years, 5 litres per race one engine per season? Could be racing PeeWee50's by then, would be pretty entertaining to see I must admit.
You think the Suzuki marketing and racing department are sitting there thinking "hey we have a great idea to get some good exposure for the brand, lets join motogp for a year then bail out again as losers!! People will flock to the stores to buy Suzuki's!!"
No Krop, if Suzuki are testing a new inline four motogp bike and want to rejoin, they want to rejoin for as long as they can use that engine. Which at present would be about one year. They have much more to lose than Nakamoto's bum chum Ezpeleta. Who knows what the rules will be in 5 years, 5 litres per race one engine per season? Could be racing PeeWee50's by then, would be pretty entertaining to see I must admit.
birdman
Whatever Suzuki's marketing and racing departments are thinking, their board - the ones with the money - are thinking ".... me this MotoGP lark is expensive, and we're not making any money. Pull the plug."
Edit: At Brno in 2012, Suzuki told Ezpeleta that they would only come back if they were allowed to sign a one-year contract. Ezpeleta told them he would only accept a three-year deal, which I believe he has now extended to a five-year deal. Suzuki have not missed an opportunity to go back on their word and renege on their promises. Their word has proven worthless in the past. If I were to do a deal with Suzuki, I would want everything in black and white with heavy penalty clauses for failing to commit.
Of course the rules need to be stable. They will be stable for 2014 - 2017 (if Honda and Yamaha keep their word about filling the grid), with the aim being to work on a set of rules which all can agree to for 2018 and beyond, for the very long term. But they have to stop Honda from moving the goalposts, as they have (largely) done for the past 10 years.
Whatever Suzuki's marketing and racing departments are thinking, their board - the ones with the money - are thinking ".... me this MotoGP lark is expensive, and we're not making any money. Pull the plug."
Edit: At Brno in 2012, Suzuki told Ezpeleta that they would only come back if they were allowed to sign a one-year contract. Ezpeleta told them he would only accept a three-year deal, which I believe he has now extended to a five-year deal. Suzuki have not missed an opportunity to go back on their word and renege on their promises. Their word has proven worthless in the past. If I were to do a deal with Suzuki, I would want everything in black and white with heavy penalty clauses for failing to commit.
Of course the rules need to be stable. They will be stable for 2014 - 2017 (if Honda and Yamaha keep their word about filling the grid), with the aim being to work on a set of rules which all can agree to for 2018 and beyond, for the very long term. But they have to stop Honda from moving the goalposts, as they have (largely) done for the past 10 years.
Joined Jul 2011
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Kropotkin
After the last few years I bet they are too. But if thats the case why enter motogp at all? What possible reason is there to develop a new 1000, 81mm bore, inline four (rumoured to be big bang) prototype with the intention to race for one year and pull the plug? Thats a very poor return on investment. The only reason the dreaded bean counters at Suzuki are so conservative is because they have no idea what rules, engines, tires, capacity limit, fuel limit, electronics etc etc they will need in two, three or five years time. They hope what they have developed now will still be relevent in 5 years but have no garantees. How many CRT entries have to sign 5 year contracts?
Did Honda, after threatening to walk out on motogp, then sign a five year committment to stay in the knowledge Ezpeleta (supposedly) still wants control ecu software? I bet not, there would be subclauses all through the Honda contract. Ezpeleta would agree for one reason, the same reason he had such a change of heart towards Honda leaving late last year. They have the new golden goose Marcy boy under their wing.
Suzuki simply have no bargaining power. If they sign up a top rider that would change, but at present Carmelo is calm with Rossi on a Yamaha and MM on a Honda, so who needs Suzuki right? You tell me about the history and committment of Suzuki to GP over the years, the names riding for them, the bikes. Does the history indicate they not worth having around?
After the last few years I bet they are too. But if thats the case why enter motogp at all? What possible reason is there to develop a new 1000, 81mm bore, inline four (rumoured to be big bang) prototype with the intention to race for one year and pull the plug? Thats a very poor return on investment. The only reason the dreaded bean counters at Suzuki are so conservative is because they have no idea what rules, engines, tires, capacity limit, fuel limit, electronics etc etc they will need in two, three or five years time. They hope what they have developed now will still be relevent in 5 years but have no garantees. How many CRT entries have to sign 5 year contracts?
Did Honda, after threatening to walk out on motogp, then sign a five year committment to stay in the knowledge Ezpeleta (supposedly) still wants control ecu software? I bet not, there would be subclauses all through the Honda contract. Ezpeleta would agree for one reason, the same reason he had such a change of heart towards Honda leaving late last year. They have the new golden goose Marcy boy under their wing.
Suzuki simply have no bargaining power. If they sign up a top rider that would change, but at present Carmelo is calm with Rossi on a Yamaha and MM on a Honda, so who needs Suzuki right? You tell me about the history and committment of Suzuki to GP over the years, the names riding for them, the bikes. Does the history indicate they not worth having around?
birdman
Suzuki was a great factory with fantastic commitment to the sport. But then the 70's came to an end....
Can you tell me - without looking it up - who was riding for Suzuki in 1996? Or what their best position was? Since 1990, Suzuki have basically put 2 bikes on the grid, no more. Throughout that period, Yamaha have put 4, 6, 8 or more on the grid, Honda have positively owned the grid, having 12 or more bikes sometimes, and even Ducati have supplied 6 bikes in the past, and at least 4.
I love Suzuki as a company, and I love the bikes they make. But they have never shown much more than a passing interest in Grand Prix racing since the end of the 1980s.
Suzuki was a great factory with fantastic commitment to the sport. But then the 70's came to an end....
Can you tell me - without looking it up - who was riding for Suzuki in 1996? Or what their best position was? Since 1990, Suzuki have basically put 2 bikes on the grid, no more. Throughout that period, Yamaha have put 4, 6, 8 or more on the grid, Honda have positively owned the grid, having 12 or more bikes sometimes, and even Ducati have supplied 6 bikes in the past, and at least 4.
I love Suzuki as a company, and I love the bikes they make. But they have never shown much more than a passing interest in Grand Prix racing since the end of the 1980s.
Joined Jul 2011
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Kropotkin
I admitt I'm not a huge Suzuki fan but I appreciate their efforts and give them a tick inthe all important 'entertainment' box. No tick for CRT.
Riders in 1996: Daryl Beattie? Anthony Gobert? Dont know the specific years. I do know in 1999 they 'got lucky' with KRjr. From memory it was more entertaining than the years of Honda domination that preceded it.
Yes no question Honda have a bigger budget and more prospective customers. But I thought we all blamed Honda for driving up costs? And to me the latest rules comprising less fuel and less engines are a joke. How can a factory enter and develop a prototype to catch up to Honda with so few engines to play with. Why did DORNA agree to this and now make Suzuki out to be the bad guys?
I admitt I'm not a huge Suzuki fan but I appreciate their efforts and give them a tick inthe all important 'entertainment' box. No tick for CRT.
Riders in 1996: Daryl Beattie? Anthony Gobert? Dont know the specific years. I do know in 1999 they 'got lucky' with KRjr. From memory it was more entertaining than the years of Honda domination that preceded it.
Yes no question Honda have a bigger budget and more prospective customers. But I thought we all blamed Honda for driving up costs? And to me the latest rules comprising less fuel and less engines are a joke. How can a factory enter and develop a prototype to catch up to Honda with so few engines to play with. Why did DORNA agree to this and now make Suzuki out to be the bad guys?
Joined May 2008
3K Posts | 79+
Southern Aridzona - Hell's doorstep.
Kropotkin
No, that's not the way...
Whatever the type of relationship, be it personal or professional, this level of control freakery never 'works out' in the long run.
Ezzy needs to worry more about making MotoGP attractive to the big corporations, and stop trying to achieve his goals via arm twisting and hardball/back-alley politics.
No, that's not the way...
Whatever the type of relationship, be it personal or professional, this level of control freakery never 'works out' in the long run.
Ezzy needs to worry more about making MotoGP attractive to the big corporations, and stop trying to achieve his goals via arm twisting and hardball/back-alley politics.
Kropotkin
Sorry David, usually agree with you, but not on this. Schwantz 1st 1993, Beattie 2nd 1995, KRJR 2nd 1999, KRJR 1st 2000, Scott Russell, Nobi Aoki, Kagayama also in the 1990s.
Suzuki have a lot more pedigree in the sport than dorna imo, Their main recent request seems to have been for stable rules for a few years, and it seems harsh to demand they sign for 5 years when ezy was talking about getting rid of the factories altogether as recently as a few months ago, On the other hand, making them partner an existing team might not be a bad idea; I presume it won't be Aspar.
Sorry David, usually agree with you, but not on this. Schwantz 1st 1993, Beattie 2nd 1995, KRJR 2nd 1999, KRJR 1st 2000, Scott Russell, Nobi Aoki, Kagayama also in the 1990s.
Suzuki have a lot more pedigree in the sport than dorna imo, Their main recent request seems to have been for stable rules for a few years, and it seems harsh to demand they sign for 5 years when ezy was talking about getting rid of the factories altogether as recently as a few months ago, On the other hand, making them partner an existing team might not be a bad idea; I presume it won't be Aspar.
michaelm
Did you have to look those Suzuki results up? Because I know I did. When I went through, I was surprised to see Scott Russel having ridden the Suzuki, that completely passed me by. That's how much of an impact Suzuki have had.
And the smart money is on Aspar getting the Suzuki deal. Makes a lot of sense, as RdP is test rider for them.
Why would Ducati, Honda and Yamaha all sign on for five more years, but Suzuki would not?
Did you have to look those Suzuki results up? Because I know I did. When I went through, I was surprised to see Scott Russel having ridden the Suzuki, that completely passed me by. That's how much of an impact Suzuki have had.
And the smart money is on Aspar getting the Suzuki deal. Makes a lot of sense, as RdP is test rider for them.
Why would Ducati, Honda and Yamaha all sign on for five more years, but Suzuki would not?
Kropotkin
Had to look up scott russell ( but remembered him in retrospect), aoki and kagayama. Obviously as an Australian knew Beattie, and obviously knew schwantz and that he had high finishes and race wins in multiple other years, and KRJR. Gobert and alex barros also had cameos, which I didn't remember.
I don't think that the MSMA being self indulgent and self interested makes DORNA competent, unfortunately. I go with your general argument that there is no other alternative than Dorna, but I think Suzuki, competent or not, have been screwed at least as much as they have screwed up in recent years, and agree with the earlier post that without the control tyre they may have remained, successfully or not.
Had to look up scott russell ( but remembered him in retrospect), aoki and kagayama. Obviously as an Australian knew Beattie, and obviously knew schwantz and that he had high finishes and race wins in multiple other years, and KRJR. Gobert and alex barros also had cameos, which I didn't remember.
I don't think that the MSMA being self indulgent and self interested makes DORNA competent, unfortunately. I go with your general argument that there is no other alternative than Dorna, but I think Suzuki, competent or not, have been screwed at least as much as they have screwed up in recent years, and agree with the earlier post that without the control tyre they may have remained, successfully or not.
Dr No
Obviously we all remember scott, but despite being of Irish extraction after a few glasses of a nice Canberran Shiraz Voignier didn't immediately recall him as a suzuki rider, which he obviously was as soon as I saw his name.
Obviously we all remember scott, but despite being of Irish extraction after a few glasses of a nice Canberran Shiraz Voignier didn't immediately recall him as a suzuki rider, which he obviously was as soon as I saw his name.
