Dorna says no to Suzuki factory team

Haha Krops. Getting lambasted. Wear it like a badge of honor brotha We debate u cuz we value these exchanges. Thats no ......... For the record, i dont believe ur sucking on the ... of Dorna/Ezy. I agree with 99.9% Birdman is saying here, but except that little part. I've been told i have confirmation bias, i dont take it personal. I generally agree with 100% of what i write, except only in the rare occasion im wrong.


Wait, wait wait, now u guys gonna site that article? I said that posts ago. Krops, im intrigued by ur statement: "im against Suzuki". Please elaborate?

Kropotkin

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Suzuki and Kawasaki demonstrate perfectly what's wrong with the factory model. They are both carrying on as before. Leaving MotoGP has made no difference to them. They don't need MotoGP, the sport I love. Teams have no existence beyond the sport, they truly are the lifeblood of the sport. Others may see it differently to me, but obviously, they are wrong.

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I love facts. having Cuckoo on here for a month has given me new insight. 


 


The factories are inexorably linked to the success of the sport, it is making the sport attractive to the factories, not just the Dorna Factory (Yamaha) or the MSMA or MSRA or whatever (Honda). 


 


The teams cannot produce a bike as fast as a factory can. 


 


A non factory team is a teensy bit slower


 


A WSBK is a teensy bit slower


 


A CRT is a teensy bit slower


 


A production bike is only a teensy bit slower


 


 


 


There isn't a yawning chasm between production bikes and motogp 


 


At Phillip Island the gap between a formula 4000 car (not even a blink on an F1 car) and a Group A touring car is 16 seconds.


 


IF we went to a near standard car (even a V8 etc) -v- F1 it would be more than 20 seconds with ease, I could have said 30 to make an argument but 20 is soooooooooo diplomatic.


 


The difference between Nicky Hayden's lap record (2008 HondaVFR 800 - 1:30.059) at Phillip Island and Jason O'Halloran's time on a production bike (Honda CBR1000RR on ho hum tyres 1:32.921).  


 


That is less than 3 seconds. 


 


Max Biaggi went around there on an Aprilia RSV4 in 1:31.785. 


 


Much faster than the best CRT time (relatively speaking). 


 


 
Motorcycle racing has no wiggle room. The factories can start a rebel series in the blink of an eye that will challenge motogp if motogp slows down even 1 second. I think there was this dude called John Nash who got a Nobel prize in economics for coming up with a formula that said is summary "watch not only the market, but your competitors and potential competitors". 
 
motogp can become the Nokia or Blackberry of the motorcycle racing world just by eschewing the factories.
 
Bring the big 2 to heel and support the little 2 Japanese.
 
Dangle a carrot for the Aprilia, BMW et al.   
 
 
 
 
And finally to correct the record (in my humble opinion) Suzuki and Kawasaki, who were both once in motogp are evidence of what is wrong with Dorna. 

Kropotkin

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That's not the worst part. PM pay around $25 million a year, it is said. Fiat paid around 8-10 million euros a year, Repsol were paying Honda 8 million euros a year. Suzuki took Rizla title sponsorship at a lot less than a million a year. The boss of another factory expressed his annoyance to me about Suzuki, both for driving down the cost of a title sponsorship - you can picture the negotiations with potential sponsors: "But Suzuki offered us a deal at 1 million, why would I pay you 10 times as much?" - and for only every supplying 2 bikes to the grid, and not pulling their weight.


 


Suzuki have not taken racing seriously in a very long time. There was an outstanding story with Gary Taylor in AMCN a year or so ago, in which he made it very clear that Suzuki's MotoGP program was underfunded, backward looking and half-hearted at the very best.

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Yes I agree, I also read the AMCN story which graphically detailed the toxic nature of the suzuki factory culture as far as gp racing goes for the last decade or more.

povol

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Welcome to the world of racing. Everybody buys victory. Its been that way since the second engine was built. He who spends, wins.

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Spot on, Povol.

michaelm

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Yes I agree, I also read the AMCN story which graphically detailed the toxic nature of the suzuki factory culture as far as gp racing goes for the last decade or more.

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Interesting. I read it as a mildly interesting insight into the operation...and some sour grapes from Taylor.

Kropotkin

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I have written repeatedly and publicly about what Dorna does wrong. Their job is to raise money. They fail miserably at this.


That you conveniently forget about that part is not my problem.


If you love prototypes, you should hate Honda. They are trying to win by outspending the competition, and forcing the other factories out in the process. They buy victory.


If I'm on anyone's side, I'm on the side of the teams.


Anyone thinking Dorna is the hand that feeds me can go .... themselves. They have no ....... clue.

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Can you provide a definition of what you mean by 'teams'?

Do you mean the crews? The engineers back at the factory/workshop? The largely itinerant contractors that swap uniforms every year or so?

....and some sour grapes from Taylor.


 


Admittedly perhaps that too.

Andy Roo

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Motorcycle racing has no wiggle room. The factories can start a rebel series in the blink of an eye that will challenge motogp if motogp slows down even 1 second. I think there was this dude called John Nash who got a Nobel prize in economics for coming up with a formula that said is summary "watch not only the market, but your competitors and potential competitors".

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Humor me by pointing me to a series run by the manufacturers. Almost any level will do, though it would be nice if it was something more serious than races for 5-year-olds in Japan. The last serious attempt to set up a rebel series under the auspices of the factories was the MIC series in the US after the DMG took over the AMA. It lasted about three meetings. And I don't mean race meetings, I mean meetings between the representatives of the various factories. The attempt was a joke.

Factories don't really care about racing. They are happy to race, if they can find a way to do it such that the odds are rigged in their favor. But the history of motorcycle racing is littered with the corpses of people who held their breath waiting for the factories to set up a rebel series.Andy Roo

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motogp can become the Nokia or Blackberry of the motorcycle racing world just by eschewing the factories.
 
Bring the big 2 to heel and support the little 2 Japanese.
 
Dangle a carrot for the Aprilia, BMW et al.

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A. Any attempt to bring the big 2 to heel, and they threaten to walk. Have you not been paying attention for the past 2 years?

B. Aprilia and BMW have had 150,000 acres of prime carrot territory dangled in front of them for the past 5 years. Their assessment has been "too expensive, and not enough ROI".
 
 Andy Roo

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And finally to correct the record (in my humble opinion) Suzuki and Kawasaki, who were both once in motogp are evidence of what is wrong with Dorna.

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Kawasaki walked because of the global financial crisis. It was too expensive to compete (they were spending 85 million euros a year, reportedly, 60 million just on racing) and run around at the back.

Suzuki walked for much the same reason.

Other than stumping up, say, 30 million each, exactly how could Dorna have kept them in the series?

Where Dorna bears blame is in failing to raise sponsorship money. Marketing the series better would make it easier for the teams and factories to get sponsors. It would help if the focus shifted from technology to entertainment, making a more attractive package to sell to TV companies and sponsors. But as Nakamoto said "That is Dorna's problem, not our problem". Any attempt to make the series more attractive meets with howls of outrage about "the purity of the sport" and "the dumbing down of MotoGP."

Too many conflicting interests. Reminds me of the old software development adage: "On time. Within budget. To spec. Choose any two."

Krop, you say any threat to the big 2 and they threaten to walk. I haven't heard Marquez threaten to walk. Rossi yes but never Marquez.

Mental Anarchist

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Krop, you say any threat to the big 2 and they threaten to walk. I haven't heard Marquez threaten to walk. Rossi yes but never Marquez.

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Tee ....... hee.

You know what I really hate? Those bloody top-riders these days. Look at them, working out all the time, spending all their time on honing their skills. All work and no play. They are corrupting the sport, I tell you. Always striving to give as much as they can to beat the competition. Where's the sport in that? I tell you, it's just not fair to all those other riders who are just as great and commited, but just don't want to give up their beerguts. I mean, can you blame them from not even trying to join Motogp, if all they can is either be backmarkers, or start working as hard on it as the ones that are winning now? We should really force the likes of Lorenzo to stop investing so much of themselves into the sport. Than those with less commitment also have a shot at winning. It will be so much better for the grid.  

Kropotkin

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Humor me by pointing me to a series run by the manufacturers. Almost any level will do, though it would be nice if it was something more serious than races for 5-year-olds in Japan. The last serious attempt to set up a rebel series under the auspices of the factories was the MIC series in the US after the DMG took over the AMA. It lasted about three meetings. And I don't mean race meetings, I mean meetings between the representatives of the various factories. The attempt was a joke.


Factories don't really care about racing. They are happy to race, if they can find a way to do it such that the odds are rigged in their favor. But the history of motorcycle racing is littered with the corpses of people who held their breath waiting for the factories to set up a rebel series. 


A. Any attempt to bring the big 2 to heel, and they threaten to walk. Have you not been paying attention for the past 2 years?


B. Aprilia and BMW have had 150,000 acres of prime carrot territory dangled in front of them for the past 5 years. Their assessment has been "too expensive, and not enough ROI".

 

 Kawasaki walked because of the global financial crisis. It was too expensive to compete (they were spending 85 million euros a year, reportedly, 60 million just on racing) and run around at the back.


Suzuki walked for much the same reason.


Other than stumping up, say, 30 million each, exactly how could Dorna have kept them in the series?


Where Dorna bears blame is in failing to raise sponsorship money. Marketing the series better would make it easier for the teams and factories to get sponsors. It would help if the focus shifted from technology to entertainment, making a more attractive package to sell to TV companies and sponsors. But as Nakamoto said "That is Dorna's problem, not our problem". Any attempt to make the series more attractive meets with howls of outrage about "the purity of the sport" and "the dumbing down of MotoGP."


Too many conflicting interests. Reminds me of the old software development adage: "On time. Within budget. To spec. Choose any two."

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One absolute truth is that there is no possibility that the manufacturers will set up a ccompeting series, successful or otherwise.

michaelm

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One absolute truth is that there is no possibility that the manufacturers will set up a ccompeting series, successful or otherwise.

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My point entirely. They do not have the the interest or the will to do so. It is not their core business.

Riddell does not run the NFL. Adidas does not run FIFA.

povol

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Welcome to the world of racing. Everybody buys victory. Its been that way since the second engine was built. He who spends, wins.

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Dorna spent the money to acquire control of the sport. The king has quelled the robber baron uprising for better or worse. Welcome to the 'world of racing'.

Kropotkin

3424141359848582

Suzuki and Kawasaki demonstrate perfectly what's wrong with the factory model. They are both carrying on as before. Leaving MotoGP has made no difference to them. They don't need MotoGP, the sport I love. Teams have no existence beyond the sport, they truly are the lifeblood of the sport. Others may see it differently to me, but obviously, they are wrong.

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The factory model is not perfect, but like any factory diaspora, the rulebook and the financial model are the underlying cause. The financial model is getting squared away. Ezpeleta no longer signs a collective MSMA contract (allegedly), and he mentioned something about teams having a stake in the series, which creates natural cost suppression incentives and a privateer-like model for the factories.


 


The dismal rulebook is what must be fixed. Up until the end of summer 2012, I would have declared technical reform an impossibility. Now that F1 and LMS have adopted fuel flow limiting, and Honda are allegedly interested in such formulas for F1, MotoGP may see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel.

Kropotkin

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Which raises the question: Is a prototype that is completely without any chance of a podium any better than a well-sorted CRT machine, or even a Honda production racer?

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The answer is NO.  See GP13.  Neither should be in the championship as they are mobile chicanes.  But that won't stop people from surmising that finishing orders 1-4 are the "best riders".

Jumkie

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The answer is NO.  See GP13.  Neither should be in the championship as they are mobile chicanes.  But that won't stop people from surmising that finishing orders 1-4 are the "best riders".

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Marquez looks like a pretty ....... good rider at the moment...

Dr No

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Marquez looks like a pretty ....... good rider at the moment...

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He sure does.  Put him on a Duc, then lets talk.  See that guy named Rossi, also known as the Goat?  He did pretty good this test too.  Most likey would have apeared 11th on a GP13...that wouldn't have looked too impressive.  I don't expect many to connect the dots buddy.  I'll assume, present company excluded.  I knew the lessons of last two years would quickly fade.  The frenzy of excitment numbing the analysis seems to be the order of the day.  See that kid Iannone languishing to beat CRTs?  That kid while in Moto2 (on generally accepted inferior bike) was a fair many times an equal to Marquez, the greatest new rider in the world.  I wonder what accounts for the stark contrast today?  It wouldn't be becasue the RCV is the best bike on the grid now would it?  And I might as well say now, as I can already imagine the retort, well he is a rookie, right?  That is a step not as long and large as it once was, many a new rider has said this.  Anyway, i've already read several "I told you so" posts.  Hey look, I knew this kid fast...yeah, no .... hes on the fastest bike during a time where the next best thing wasn't what it use to be in recent memory.  Until we see these guys challenged on other machines, like say Stoner, on anything other than the best bikes (of a whopping 4) then we can't make much conclusions of anything.  Again, my point, that won't stop peeps from making them.  

Jumkie

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He sure does.  Put him on a Duc, then lets talk.  See that guy named Rossi, also known as the Goat?  He did pretty good this test too.  Most likey would have apeared 11th on a GP13...that wouldn't have looked too impressive.  I don't expect many to connect the dots buddy.  I'll assume, present company excluded.  I knew the lessons of last two years would quickly fade.  The frenzy of excitment numbing the analysis seems to be the order of the day.  See that kid Iannone languishing to beat CRTs?  That kid while in Moto2 (on generally accepted inferior bike) was a fair many times an equal to Marquez, the greatest new rider in the world.  I wonder what accounts for the stark contrast today?  It wouldn't be becasue the RCV is the best bike on the grid now would it?  And I might as well say now, as I can already imagine the retort, well he is a rookie, right?  That is a step not as long and large as it once was, many a new rider has said this.  Anyway, i've already read several "I told you so" posts.  Hey look, I knew this kid fast...yeah, no .... hes on the fastest bike during a time where the next best thing wasn't what it use to be in recent memory.  Until we see these guys challenged on other machines, like say Stoner, on anything other than the best bikes (of a whopping 4) then we can't make much conclusions of anything.  Again, my point, that won't stop peeps from making them.  

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Jumkie, you have a lot of good stuff to say and are probably the most passionate fan on this board. But I think you're preaching to the choir here. You seem to think that nobody knows what is up with the Duke and in seemingly every post you share this with us.


 


We all know that the Duke is a POS.


 


Nobody, and I mean nobody save Stoner can/could post steel trellis win a race with that thing.


 


If you put MM, Lorenzo, Pedrosa on it they would be floating around 10th-5th.


 


Put Nicky on the RC213v he's a top 4.


 


Your ride determines how well you can (not will) finish.


 


I don't think you'll find a sane member on this board who will dispute any of this.


 


You have tons of insight to share dude, but of late this seems to be all you want to focus on. Give us the good stuff, quit wasting your time on this.


 


PS 5 best bikes btw, Bradl has factory support. And it looks like Cal is getting pretty good kit too.