DORNA at it again.

"The more interesting proposal is one to examine ways of reducing tire performance."

um ya. that's real f'n smart. let's reduce tire performance so these guys can start highsideing and tucking the front through every turn.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 30 2008, 07:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"The more interesting proposal is one to examine ways of reducing tire performance."

um ya. that's real f'n smart. let's reduce tire performance so these guys can start highsideing and tucking the front through every turn.
Yeah, because they'd absolutely ignore the limitations of the new tires and continue riding like they had the old ones on...

You can attach GP and the name prototype to about anything these days.At what point does this cease being the ultimate technologically advanced form of racing and become just another series.Grooved tires,spec ecu's,has this ....... been talking to Roger Edmondson at DMG.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 30 2008, 06:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"The more interesting proposal is one to examine ways of reducing tire performance."

um ya. that's real f'n smart. let's reduce tire performance so these guys can start highsideing and tucking the front through every turn.
It would be an awfully expensive way of slowing riders down. In the sense that riders are going to go out expecting current-level performance, only to find themselves on the floor. What a terrible idea. It's no better than the spec ECU idea. I hate to beat a dead horse, especially a horse as dead and buried as the 990 formula, but that's the solution. In my eyes anyways.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 30 2008, 08:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, because they'd absolutely ignore the limitations of the new tires and continue riding like they had the old ones on...
You can't honestly expect a rider to slow himself down because he has shittier tires can you? How are they supposed to find the limits? These guys have raced for years and with every year there is progression in technology. Whether that's in horsepower, braking, electronics or in this case tires, there have been advancements that have allowed the riders to develop their current style. And suddenly they're supposed to give one of those major advancements up? Arguably the most important advancement in modern racing? Dumbing down tires will result in many, many crashes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jul 30 2008, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You can attach GP and the name prototype to about anything these days.At what point does this cease being the ultimate technologically advanced form of racing and become just another series.Grooved tires,spec ecu's,has this ....... been talking to Roger Edmondson at DMG.
As time passes and technology advances, there are fewer and fewer directions to turn. The more you can make stuff that's too capable to be ridden safely, the less you can have "unlimited" innovation. There are limits imposed by the capability of the human body and by the realities of what can be done with track design that have long since made truly unlimited racing impractical. It's unrealistic to expect "true" prototype series to continue indefinitely. The bigger issue is that you could argue that they've been adding the wrong limitations for good racing, particularly by being so stingy with fuel and forcing teams to be so careful with it.

The only solution here to me is to return to 990 but then introduce a spec ECU. Swallow your pride Dorna and admit the 800cc formula didn't work is the point here.

to artificially reduce tyre performance in the name of saftey is just plain ....... stupid.tc just gives riders a false sense of security imo, fine when the programmers scenarios work but dangerous when things aint quite right.
every time dorna try to slow the bikes down they make things worse. let the teams race un hindered and technology and the engineers will take care of safety not some office gimp. if Carmelo Ezpeleta make one more stupid rule change i think he should be removed from his post.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 30 2008, 08:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As time passes and technology advances, there are fewer and fewer directions to turn. The more you can make stuff that's too capable to be ridden safely, the less you can have "unlimited" innovation. There are limits imposed by the capability of the human body and by the realities of what can be done with track design that have long since made truly unlimited racing impractical. It's unrealistic to expect "true" prototype series to continue indefinitely. The bigger issue is that you could argue that they've been adding the wrong limitations for good racing, particularly by being so stingy with fuel and forcing teams to be so careful with it.
I agree 100 percent with what you're saying. I just think tires is the wrong place to start. Maybe capping tire development is a better solution, not allowing so much testing and such. Ot will certainly bring costs down, which is another piece that needs attention. Slowing down that development would be a much better solution, in my mind, than dumbing it down.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 30 2008, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You can't honestly expect a rider to slow himself down because he has shittier tires can you?
Did the Michelin riders ride as fast as the 'Stone riders at Laguna? Did they all crash out? Were the ones who warmed up on intermediates as fast in warmup as they were in the race on slicks? Of course they'll ....... slow down on worse tires. They ride on or very near the limit. Tires determine that limit. They don't just go out there and randomly pick a fast pace to ride - they find the limit and ride there.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 30 2008, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How are they supposed to find the limits?By riding? They find the limit for a ....... living! Depending on how good their setup and tire choice are that limit changes from race to race and practice to practice already! Do riders crash out in practice on every tire except their choice of race tire? For that matter do they crashon everything except Qs? NO! Do GP riders who go to WSB turn into huge crashers on account of running inferior rubber? NO!<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 30 2008, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>These guys have raced for years and with every year there is progression in technology.They've raced for years...but aren't competent enough to find their limit on a given set of tires?<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 30 2008, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whether that's in horsepower, braking, electronics or in this case tires, there have been advancements that have allowed the riders to develop their current style.So they're adapting to new changes on a yearly basis...but muck with their tires and they'll be hopelessly lost? That's just ridiculous.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 30 2008, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And suddenly they're supposed to give one of those major advancements up?They gave up 190cc displacement last year. They gave up a bunch of fuel last year. They survived.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 30 2008, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Arguably the most important advancement in modern racing?As one of the most important advancements of modern racing, it would seem like one where a difference could be made.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 30 2008, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dumbing down tires will result in many, many crashes.Based on what, the rampant crashing at every other level of motorcycle racing? You're underestimating these guys' ability.

I'm all for unlimited performance increases. Really.........I would love to see what humanity is capable of. Unfortunately (wink), we live in democratic free societies and the litigious consequences of frequent rider injury and death are a shock the sport could not sustain in the long run. Speed kills. The end.

When DORNA started running F1 tracks and increasing the cost of horsepower, they created this mess. 4-strokes are probably 10x more expensive than 2 strokes, and the 800s are probably another 10x more expensive than the 990s.

They could have used tracks to control safety or they could have pioneered new safety technologies (personally I think the airbag leathers are an interesting start), but they've chosen to go the route of spec equipment. I hold Ezy in the same regards as I hold Beelzebub, yet I'm pretty certain these are not his ideas.

The fans have been muttering for some time that the sport is enduring a slow demise from technological abuse, lack of participation, and lack of new rider talent. Furthermore, Ducati is currently head and shoulders above the rest. Spec ECU would give the Japanese a simple, cheap way to catch Ducati. It may also increase participation in the sport (a necessity, imo).

I hate it when the governing body makes constant rules changes to patch the poor rules changes it made during a prior season, but a spec ECU will certainly be accompanied by an increase in displacement or a boost in fuel. There is no way DORNA will allow MotoGP to run slower lap times than WSBK.

I hope this article has also revealed something that so many people on here are hesitant to acknowledge---DORNA are screwing with the tires and they probably have been for some time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 30 2008, 09:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Did the Michelin riders ride as fast as the 'Stone riders at Laguna? Did they all crash out? Were the ones who warmed up on intermediates as fast in warmup as they were in the race on slicks? Of course they'll ....... slow down on worse tires. They ride on or very near the limit. Tires determine that limit. They don't just go out there and randomly pick a fast pace to ride - they find the limit and ride there.By riding? They find the limit for a ....... living! Depending on how good their setup and tire choice are that limit changes from race to race and practice to practice already! Do riders crash out in practice on every tire except their choice of race tire? For that matter do they crashon everything except Qs? NO! Do GP riders who go to WSB turn into huge crashers on account of running inferior rubber? NO!They've raced for years...but aren't competent enough to find their limit on a given set of tires?So they're adapting to new changes on a yearly basis...but muck with their tires and they'll be hopelessly lost? That's just ridiculous.They gave up 190cc displacement last year. They gave up a bunch of fuel last year. They survived.As one of the most important advancements of modern racing, it would seem like one where a difference could be made.
Based on what, the rampant crashing at every other level of motorcycle racing? You're underestimating these guys' ability.
I just can't fathom reversing the development in tires. With how important they've become in setup they can't afford to take a few steps back. If they limit the development that's fine, but introducing grooved tires or banning newer technologies to revert to a simpler time will not work with today's bikes. Grip is a necessity with these corner speeds, taking that away is going to cause an increase in crashes like Hopper's.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 30 2008, 02:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As time passes and technology advances, there are fewer and fewer directions to turn. The more you can make stuff that's too capable to be ridden safely, the less you can have "unlimited" innovation. There are limits imposed by the capability of the human body and by the realities of what can be done with track design that have long since made truly unlimited racing impractical. It's unrealistic to expect "true" prototype series to continue indefinitely. The bigger issue is that you could argue that they've been adding the wrong limitations for good racing, particularly by being so stingy with fuel and forcing teams to be so careful with it.
I wonder whether a control ecu would be much help, and I think the push for it is partly based on a false premise, being that ducati have a continuing magical electronic advantage. The other manufacturers seem to have a clear view about where ducati's advantage lies, in that both honda and yamaha have called for rpm limitations but not for control ecus, not that I think they should control the technical regulations either.

I agree that there is only so far that development can continue given the limitations of tracks and the human body, and don't think devising technical regulations is easy at this point in time for dorna or anyone else. It does seem possible that actual bike racing guys might be better at it than accountants or bankers or whatever dorna are, and I think it would be a good idea if FIM were put back more firmly in control of both wsbk and motogp particularly as present and potential future commercial conflicts between the rights holders of the two series would appear to be part of the problem.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jul 30 2008, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The fans have been muttering for some time that the sport is enduring a slow demise from technological abuse, lack of participation, and lack of new rider talent. Furthermore, Ducati is currently head and shoulders above the rest. Spec ECU would give the Japanese a simple, cheap way to catch Ducati. It may also increase participation in the sport (a necessity, imo).
Ducati wins the championship and is now at the Front of the pack and everyone screams we need changes. Bridgestone wins one championship after ...... Michilin has dominated for years and everyone screams we need changes. We need the other stupid ... companies to get their .... together just like Ducati and Bridgestone. They need to shut the hell up and get it together. IF they can't they they deserve to lose. Period. .... you people that want to water down a series by controlling ECU's, Tires, and whatever else so that it can go someones elses way like Honda and Fagdrosa. It is one of the last series if not the only one left that has a shred of descency by remaining close to its roots. The powers that be wanting to propose all these types of changes underminds the very fabric of the series itself. If you don't like Stoner and Ducati then Go out and beat him by making a better bike and finding a better rider. Tough .... if you didn't do your Job. In my world if you slack and I find that your responsible then your FIRED!!!! End of story WHO"S next in line for the position and we will see if that person is going to get the job done.

Well I think it's a great idea to reduce the performance of the tyres, would reduce corner speed which is the danger (reducing capacity to 800cc was dumb that just reduces the speed on the straight and riders don't crash there).
But how are they going to do it? You cannot expect Michelin and Bstone to make a worse tyre when their aim is the opposite! I guess grooved tyres or tyre width reduction are most likely options(I don't really like any of those 2 solutions), I'd personally would like to have all-weather tyres, which would slow a lot the bikes and will allow the race to keep on going on any weather without this changing bikes circus. And technology developed there would actually be useful for road bike tyres.

Standard ECU I think it's necessary also, cause it's the only way to be safe there's no TC hidden in the hardware like it happened in F1, and I think TC has to go because otherwise the rider imput is too small.

No TC + slow tyres might make MotoGP slower than WSBK or 250cc and since that shouldn't happen (cause it's suppposed to be the top category in the world) I think going back to 1Liter engines would be a nice compensation.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teomolca @ Jul 30 2008, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well I think it's a great idea to reduce the performance of the tyres, would reduce corner speed which is the danger (reducing capacity to 800cc was dumb that just reduces the speed on the straight and riders don't crash there).
But how are they going to do it? You cannot expect Michelin and Bstone to make a worse tyre when their aim is the opposite! I guess grooved tyres or tyre width reduction are most likely options(I don't really like any of those 2 solutions), I'd personally would like to have all-weather tyres, which would slow a lot the bikes and will allow the race to keep on going on any weather without this changing bikes circus. And technology developed there would actually be useful for road bike tyres.

Standard ECU I think it's necessary also, cause it's the only way to be safe there's no TC hidden in the hardware like it happened in F1, and I think TC has to go because otherwise the rider imput is too small.

No TC + slow tyres might make MotoGP slower than WSBK or 250cc and since that shouldn't happen (cause it's suppposed to be the top category in the world) I think going back to 1Liter engines would be a nice compensation.
If you groove the tires then you will have to dial up the performance of the tire by more development because they just will not last a whole race because of the excessive heat. So right there more money in the mix. They are stupid to think that a company will say sure we will slow development cause as soon as that is said they will step it up somehow so they catch the other company with their pants down. Just ...... run what ya brung and let the best man win no matter who it is, even pedrosa. Well he really isn't a man but you know what I mean.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jul 30 2008, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducati wins the championship and is now at the Front of the pack and everyone screams we need changes. Bridgestone wins one championship after ...... Michilin has dominated for years and everyone screams we need changes. We need the other stupid ... companies to get their .... together just like Ducati and Bridgestone. They need to shut the hell up and get it together. IF they can't they they deserve to lose. Period. .... you people that want to water down a series by controlling ECU's, Tires, and whatever else so that it can go someones elses way like Honda and Fagdrosa. It is one of the last series if not the only one left that has a shred of descency by remaining close to its roots. The powers that be wanting to propose all these types of changes underminds the very fabric of the series itself. If you don't like Stoner and Ducati then Go out and beat him by making a better bike and finding a better rider. Tough .... if you didn't do your Job. In my world if you slack and I find that your responsible then your FIRED!!!! End of story WHO"S next in line for the position and we will see if that person is going to get the job done.

What is the point of MotoGP?

If the point is to create a small, greatly-dispersed field of riders while increasing the cost 20 fold, then I would agree they are staying true to their roots. If their job is to make sure that 3-5 riders have world class equipment, then I would say they have been true to their roots.

Everything MotoGP has done in the last decade has been a compromise of it's roots. The change to the 800s was the straw that broke the camel's back. Since the inception of the 800s, attendance and viewership have been in steep decline.

If you want MotoGP to continue, you will start backing change or the repeal of changes that have already occurred. I want Ducati to continue winning as well, but they can't win WC's if MotoGP ceases.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jul 30 2008, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What is the point of MotoGP?

If the point is to create a small, greatly-dispersed field of riders while increasing the cost 20 fold, then I would agree they are staying true to their roots. If their job is to make sure that 3-5 riders have world class equipment, then I would say they have been true to their roots.

Everything MotoGP has done in the last decade has been a compromise of it's roots. The change to the 800s was the straw that broke the camel's back. Since the inception of the 800s, attendance and viewership have been in steep decline.

If you want MotoGP to continue, you will start backing change or the repeal of changes that have already occurred. I want Ducati to continue winning as well, but they can't win WC's if MotoGP ceases.
I am saying if your read carefully that it is the job of the losers to stop losing. The rules don't mean .... cause the winners in the world will say adapt and overcome. The ....... blame .... like this and that or whatever is convienient. I want the series to maintain the prototype racing that is everchanging from year to year development wise. 990's 800's now 600's will replace 250's come on it is excuses by honda and everyone else after Ducati shocked the world by DOMINATING. Whose fault is that? And the racing would be much better if you got some riders in there that are better than MOST OF THE FIELD. There have only been a select few that get any results worth mentioning. You see how Dovi on last years bike is adapting and overcoming. WTF get with it and stop whining about dumbing .... down cause that will be the demise of MOTO GP not repeals and These proposed drastic changes. They need to tweak some things but really. When Vale stopped winning like he did outright then everyone ..... their pants and says DUcati cheats or more excuses. Moto gp is fine and it will be better. This is only the 2nd year for 800's as well so put some things in perspective to really evaluate the thing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jul 30 2008, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Everything MotoGP has done in the last decade has been a compromise of it's roots. The change to the 800s was the straw that broke the camel's back. Since the inception of the 800s, attendance and viewership have been in steep decline.

If you want MotoGP to continue, you will start backing change or the repeal of changes that have already occurred. I want Ducati to continue winning as well, but they can't win WC's if MotoGP ceases.
The 800cc formula is obviously deeply flawed, as you have maintained from the start. A control ecu is at least theoretically attractive, but would not in my opinion solve all problems, particularly with wsbk running bikes of up to 1200cc capacity also with quite sophisticated electronics. If the 800 formula is fatally flawed as seems likely they had better get the next one right or there won't be enough competitors left for their to be any point to further attempts as you say.