DONE DEAL, Hayden rides Ducati next year

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Sep 3 2009, 10:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and watch his results go back downhill from here. his place is on average a midpack finisher

And yet he is still 20 X the rider you would EVER hope to be in this lifetime.

He's accomplished more in one race than you have accomplished in one life since being hatched.

Must really crawl under your skin to realize that huh?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Sep 3 2009, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nicky at Ducati was not in doubt from Ducati's standpoint---what was in doubt was whether they were going to sign him at Marlboro or try to string him along until his only factory ride was at Xerox Ducati.

As far as Ducati's new bike for 2010, it seems likely. It appears as though Ducati's performance advantage has been entirely erased by the control tire and by engine work at Yamaha and Honda. Anyone who is looking for clues about the new emergence of a new bike should read motogpmatters. Pedrosa comments on some new ideas and directions that Ducati used to entice him away from Honda. Pedrosa ultimately decided that he did not want to be developing a bike going into the 2010 season. His remarks make is relatively clear that he is comparing Ducati's off season plans to Honda's off season plans going into the 2008 season.

I think Ducati have got something pretty major in the works. I think they are getting ready to ditch Desmo and move to pneumatics. I have no evidence, it just seems like the next logical progression. They've already ditched all of their other signature Ducati design elements.

Now way the Desmo goes away (ok, I could be wrong but I doubt it). What other elements have they ditched? The bike is a prototype. It has a Desmo valve system and a dry clutch. That's pretty Ducati to me?? With a prototype bike there isn't a great deal of commonality possible with the street brethren.

http://2wheeltuesday.com/wp-content/upload...arbon-frame.jpg

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Sep 3 2009, 06:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The new engine rule is going to make it very tough on teams that want to devekope a new engine.
I agree completely with Sacky on this one, the limited engine rule could potentially give us another 2007 season. A season where if one team gets it right, they could dominate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shocker @ Sep 3 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And yet he is still 20 X the rider you would EVER hope to be in this lifetime.

He's accomplished more in one race than you have accomplished in one life since being hatched.

Must really crawl under your skin to realize that huh?

that may be so but theres no point in saying that in this conversation. Nicky has accomplished more than all of us. The forum is comparing nicky to other motogp riders. THis is the important comparison. If nicky is not as good as them, hes gone.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (levigarrett @ Sep 3 2009, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now way the Desmo goes away (ok, I could be wrong but I doubt it). What other elements have they ditched? The bike is a prototype. It has a Desmo valve system and a dry clutch. That's pretty Ducati to me?? With a prototype bike there isn't a great deal of commonality possible with the street brethren.

http://2wheeltuesday.com/wp-content/upload...arbon-frame.jpgThe frame in your picture is an example. Up until this year they had their traditional trellis frame.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Sep 3 2009, 06:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The frame in your picture is an example. Up until this year they had their traditional trellis frame.


I agree, but I don't think the Desmo valve is the problem. The problem seems to be the torque delivery and the basic rear geometry. Nicky has said several times that he is forced to stand the bike up before coming into the power, seems the back of the bike is the problem.

Just pointing out a pretty iconic element that they ditched this year.

Their priorities coming into this season were supposedly to improve power delivery and obviously getting better handling from the new frame. Clearly the frame is still a bit of a work in progress - are they using the aluminum or carbon swingarm these days?

The problems they have now appear to be the ones they wanted to address with the GP9. Pneumo valves might help with the power delivery. I think the only lesson we can take is that Ducati are willing to take risks in development. Sometimes they pay off big, sometimes they're dead ends, and sometimes they're regressions. Whatever their course of action, they need to get more rider-friendly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (levigarrett @ Sep 3 2009, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now way the Desmo goes away (ok, I could be wrong but I doubt it). What other elements have they ditched? The bike is a prototype. It has a Desmo valve system and a dry clutch. That's pretty Ducati to me?? With a prototype bike there isn't a great deal of commonality possible with the street brethren.

http://2wheeltuesday.com/wp-content/upload...arbon-frame.jpg

V-twin, steel trellis, and SSS are all gone for performance reasons.

The Ducati that blew by Rossi on the straight at Qatar in 2007 is far removed from the Ducati that failed to pull out of Rossi's slip stream at Catalunya in 2009. The first logical step to improving performance is to explore pneumatics. While desmo proved to be vastly superior to spring valves, it has proven to be slightly inferior when compared with well developed pneumatic systems.

Time will tell what they end up doing. Yamaha appears to be a less attractive option after the complaints of their riders about the new engine rules. Honda appears to be finding their stride now that the Yamaha appears to be weakened.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (levigarrett @ Sep 3 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So what?? There are only 4 riders of 18 capable of winning. Should we just scuttle the rest of the series? Perhaps they can have 4 bikes on the grid, you know just so we don't have to watch the back markers and such. If Nicky can capture an occasional podium while providing bike sales to Ducati he is achieving the desired outcome.

I don't think anyone other than one of the top four riders will challenge for the title. Same problem in F1, same problem in Indy cars, same problem in many many sports.

What's your point?

move over and make place for someone new - like you say there's a limted number of rides - so if riders are constant mid- field - swap them out

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (levigarrett @ Sep 3 2009, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree, but I don't think the Desmo valve is the problem. The problem seems to be the torque delivery and the basic rear geometry. Nicky has said several times that he is forced to stand the bike up before coming into the power, seems the back of the bike is the problem.

That's why I think Desmo might be part of the problem.

First, desmo usually takes up quite a bit of space because of the dual rocker arms necessary to have positive actuation for closing and opening the valves. I have no idea whether or not the GP bike has problems with the size of the cams and vavles, but it seems plausible. Furthermore, a long engine config (L-4) and combine it with a long valve system usually creates a long bike with handling problems.

I don't know that pneumatics is shorter, but you can ditch the camshafts. Pneumatics also offers much more radical variable valve timing so it may help with power delivery.

I don't know these things for sure, but pneumatics seems like the logical next step. I'm not sure Ducati can abandon the L-4 without enduring several seasons of poor results and technical frustrations.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Sep 3 2009, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's why I think Desmo might be part of the problem.

First, desmo usually takes up quite a bit of space because of the dual rocker arms necessary to have positive actuation for closing and opening the valves. I have no idea whether or not the GP bike has problems with the size of the cams and vavles, but it seems plausible. Furthermore, a long engine config (L-4) and combine it with a long valve system usually creates a long bike with handling problems.

I don't know that pneumatics is shorter, but you can ditch the camshafts. Pneumatics also offers much more radical variable valve timing so it may help with power delivery.

I don't know these things for sure, but pneumatics seems like the logical next step. I'm not sure Ducati can abandon the L-4 without enduring several seasons of poor results and technical frustrations.

Not the mention the extra frictional losses you must get with the Desmo system.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 4 2009, 01:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think Nicky has ever been in doubt at Ducati, really.
I'm convinced the chase after Lorenzo was meant to replace Stoner. We will probably never know what is happening between Stoner and Ducati, but something is definitely happening that isn't just health or training related, imo

Hit the nail on the head mate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Sep 4 2009, 03:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Ducati have got something pretty major in the works. I think they are getting ready to ditch Desmo and move to pneumatics. I have no evidence, it just seems like the next logical progression. They've already ditched all of their other signature Ducati design elements.

Only major change i can see happening is that they ditch the carbon fibre-framed bike and switch to aluminum frames for next years GP10. Change from desmo to pneumatics? No way!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Sep 3 2009, 07:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>V-twin, steel trellis, and SSS are all gone for performance reasons.

The Ducati that blew by Rossi on the straight at Qatar in 2007 is far removed from the Ducati that failed to pull out of Rossi's slip stream at Catalunya in 2009. The first logical step to improving performance is to explore pneumatics. While desmo proved to be vastly superior to spring valves, it has proven to be slightly inferior when compared with well developed pneumatic systems.

Time will tell what they end up doing. Yamaha appears to be a less attractive option after the complaints of their riders about the new engine rules. Honda appears to be finding their stride now that the Yamaha appears to be weakened.

Have any of the Ducati GP bikes had a SSSA?? Serious question, I'm not sure. The steel trellis was bound to be replaced on a prototype race bike. Much greater stability is required not to mention the completely different powerplant. The trellis is a Ducati production staple but a GP bike is simply it's own animal. Ducati has never made V-twins, they have always been L-twin 90 Degree engines. The GP bike is an L-4, essentially two L-twins. Gonna be hard to make the necessary power from only two cylinders. They have maintained their heritage where possible but in the end the Ferrari F1 car shares little with it's street stable mates and the Ducati is no different.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Sep 3 2009, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>\\prob point is that duacti and all of the factory motogp teams are looking for race wins an world championships.

hayden isnt a person to do that for you.

should hayden be in motogp? yeah for sure, but not on a factory team, only on a satellite team, where if he pops his head in the top4 once a year, it would be a great acheivment.

Duhh! And how often since the 800s came along has any non-factory rider been on the
podium?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ngads @ Sep 3 2009, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>that may be so but theres no point in saying that in this conversation. Nicky has accomplished more than all of us. The forum is comparing nicky to other motogp riders. THis is the important comparison. If nicky is not as good as them, hes gone.

Of all the riders in the paddock only three have won Moto GP championships.
All three are the ones that set the standard by which other riders
are judged - and Nicky is one of them. That's inescapable. And never forget
- Hayden won on the bike developed for a midget, making his championship
that much more convincing. The haters ignore this because it's an inconvenient truth.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Sep 3 2009, 05:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Duhh! And how often since the 800s came along has any non-factory rider been on the
podium?

DUUUUUh - it already is a great and rare achievement when Nicky the factory rider gets on the podium

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Sep 3 2009, 05:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And never forget - Hayden won on the bike developed for a midget, making his championship
that much more convincing.

Actually, Hayden won the the championship on the 990 V-5, a bike developed for/by Rossi.

Actually, Hayden won the the championship on the 990 V-5, a bike developed for/by Rossi.
[/quote]

3 years after he left?And Honda made no secret of the stepped up rate of development that was happening after VR's departure.They were out to "destroy" him,apparently.Very little of Valentinos/Jeremys input will have been left in the bike that was described as a "radical evolution" of the 05/06 bike.

Also the evil empire werent ever that willing to listen to their riders/crew chief's ideas for the bikes development apparently that just isnt HRCs mentality.Ask Valentino or even Nicky.Remember they think its the bike not the rider.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wolffo @ Sep 3 2009, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually, Hayden won the the championship on the 990 V-5, a bike developed for/by Rossi.
The 'Evo' RC211V had a multitude of parts on it that were one-off special pieces to gather data for the 212. It was a frankenstein bike.