Burgess: No trouble found on Rossi's engine

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(yamaka46 @ Nov 14 2007, 11:58 PM) [snapback]100812[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Not sure TC could have been so easily developed for strokers.

As BikerGirl said, they are a completely different beast. and I don't think suitable for TC.

Seriously though, have you ever ridden a large cap 2-stroke? I had a 500 Gamma which was (sort of) the 500 race bike with headlights etc. If you have then I think you'd understand why TC couldn't really help "calm" a 2 stroke. They are all about throttle control - even on the road, if you didn't understand that you'd wheelie it into a tree. And I regret selling the damn thing, but can't find another worth buying now.


The biggest 2 stroke i have ridden is an rgv250, not that it matters. I know that TC can be developed for 2 strokes, and it certainly would have been by now if they had kept racing them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Nov 15 2007, 11:06 PM) [snapback]100869[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
The biggest 2 stroke i have ridden is an rgv250, not that it matters. I know that TC can be developed for 2 strokes, and it certainly would have been by now if they had kept racing them.


You are dead right Tom.

TC is nothing new. The lab I worked in hired out assistance and equipment to do EMI and RFI testing of a gearbox and traction control electronics box for the F50. I haven't been at that Lab for 12 years now ......

I think the trouble is folk want motogp to be a formula that just tests the riders ....... not a bike development formula. Which to be honest I found odd with the 500's because before motogp went 990's most road bike here were 4 strokes and the 2 strokes were dissappearing.

Is there any other formula for bikes that future bike developments are tested and come from??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BarryMachine @ Nov 15 2007, 01:41 PM) [snapback]100881[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
You are dead right Tom.

TC is nothing new. The lab I worked in hired out assistance and equipment to do EMI and RFI testing of a gearbox and traction control electronics box for the F50. I haven't been at that Lab for 12 years now ......

I think the trouble is folk want motogp to be a formula that just tests the riders ....... not a bike development formula. Which to be honest I found odd with the 500's because before motogp went 990's most road bike here were 4 strokes and the 2 strokes were dissappearing.

Is there any other formula for bikes that future bike developments are tested and come from??

wsb, bsb, ama ect

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Nov 16 2007, 02:45 AM) [snapback]100910[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
wsb, bsb, ama ect


they are all "how to hot up your street bike" formulas

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BarryMachine @ Nov 15 2007, 03:53 PM) [snapback]100912[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
they are all "how to hot up your street bike" formulas

they used to be. if you look at a wsb bike and the road going model these days theres not a lot the same.
there are no real prototypes imo, they all work around existing configs and technology's, its just refinement these days.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Nov 15 2007, 03:58 PM) [snapback]100915[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
there are no real prototypes imo, they all work around existing configs and technology's, its just refinement these days.


Although we haven't seen large scale variation from the generally accepted way to design the chassis and suspension of a motorbike, it is foolish to think there are no real prototypes. New technology is being introduced all the time, thats how the bikes get faster.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Nov 15 2007, 04:46 PM) [snapback]100929[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Although we haven't seen large scale variation from the generally accepted way to design the chassis and suspension of a motorbike, it is foolish to think there are no real prototypes. New technology is being introduced all the time, thats how the bikes get faster.

as i said, just refinments on existing configs and technology.
what do you think makes a motogp bike a prototype ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Nov 15 2007, 05:43 PM) [snapback]100941[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
as i said, just refinments on existing configs and technology.
what do you think makes a motogp bike a prototype ?


I was going to be a smartass and say they are prototypes as there are no road versions of them...

But Ducati ...... up my arguement with the D16RR.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Nov 15 2007, 12:06 PM) [snapback]100869[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
The biggest 2 stroke i have ridden is an rgv250, not that it matters.
My bad - not all of us are old
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Nov 15 2007, 12:06 PM) [snapback]100869[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>I know that TC can be developed for 2 strokes, and it certainly would have been by now if they had kept racing them.

Again, I was not clear in what I meant. The TC available at the time was to all intents and purposes non-existant. As large cap 2-strokes were effectively left by the wayside when motogp came on the scene no-one has considered the parameters necessary to try to tame a 2-stroke. As with all engineering, it's not IF it is possible, just how long it'll take and how much it'll cost

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BarryMachine @ Nov 15 2007, 01:41 PM) [snapback]100881[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
TC is nothing new. The lab I worked in hired out assistance and equipment to do EMI and RFI testing of a gearbox and traction control electronics box for the F50. I haven't been at that Lab for 12 years now ......

The only question I have here is why you could possibly need TC on a scooter, now or then?

Manufacturers (car and bike) are constantly pushing down a road they don't understand (look up Peugeot 307 software probs on the net if you don't believe me - and they are not the only ones), for reasons I don't understand.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BarryMachine @ Nov 15 2007, 01:41 PM) [snapback]100881[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I think the trouble is folk want motogp to be a formula that just tests the riders ....... not a bike development formula. Which to be honest I found odd with the 500's because before motogp went 990's most road bike here were 4 strokes and the 2 strokes were dissappearing.

For myself I want the top flight bike <u>racing</u> (motogp) to be about bike <u>racing</u>. I have the same sort of problem as you do with people who state categorically, about F1 or Motogp, that the most important part about the <u>sport</u> is that it should be the pinnacle of engineering regardless of whether that damages the racing (F1 for the last 10 or so years anybody?).

If you consider Motogp & F1 to be "sports" (I do) then the engineering pinnacle is not the <u>most</u> important aspect. However, once a "lower" level of the same sport has greater speeds etc, then the "pinnacle" concept is brought into question.

Although WSB this year did not lap faster than Motogp bikes it is getting closer, especially at some circuits. For this reason, if nothing else, if WSB and motogp continue down their current roads I think that WSB will become the better spectacle and have the fastest bikes. Once that happens, who will care where the best TC is engineered.

BTW - I sincerely hope this doesn't happen - control TC for Motogp asap!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(yamaka46 @ Nov 16 2007, 10:28 AM) [snapback]101016[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
The only question I have here is why you could possibly need TC on a scooter, now or then?



No it was a Ferrari it was meant for ...... I think they only ever ended up making a few though ..... never came to fruition ...... maybe it was the TC!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BarryMachine @ Nov 16 2007, 12:31 AM) [snapback]101036[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
No it was a Ferrari it was meant for ...... I think they only ever ended up making a few though ..... never came to fruition ...... maybe it was the TC!!

Sorry - never thought of the <u>Ferrari</u> F50 when I read your post My Bad...

So where were you working when you were involved in this? (assuming you wouldn't have to kill me once you've told me...)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(yamaka46 @ Nov 16 2007, 11:48 AM) [snapback]101039[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
............ (assuming you wouldn't have to kill me once you've told me...)


hahaha you are not wrong there, it was all a bit like that .... meh but we used to test only prototype stuff so it was second nature, besides ... it was the way they developed stuff like that ( a bit here a bit there ) that was the main reason I didn't get swamped by motoring papperazzi everyday as I left work .... perhaps I should have gone outside and shouted " I have Ferrari parts in here under test!! " still wouldn't have got me any attention Most "non-testing" people who entered the doors of the lab died on contact with the reality of the boredom that is "testing" "stuff"

The guy who won the tender to do the electronics was living in Aust. He was an expat. italian and thats how he made his bucks ... circuit board and software development. So we were the only lab with the RFI and EMI test gear ( matter of fact I think there were only two labs in the world at the time and we were a bit more "removed" from "prying eyes" matter of fact I think he moved here to do the Dev. ?? maybe it was all more "hush hush" than I realised?? ) ..... I got the job of showing him how to use it ... told me some great stuff about the F50 too ..... the Gearbox/Back axle/clutches setup was amazing ...... his "mock-up" test rig was not ... I remember that much, it looked like he used wheelbarrow wheels, like granny had

Now burn this message and eat the ashes ....... and send me your "stools for three months:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BarryMachine @ Nov 16 2007, 01:34 AM) [snapback]101049[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
hahaha you are not wrong there, it was all a bit like that .... meh but we used to test only prototype stuff so it was second nature, besides ... it was the way they developed stuff like that ( a bit here a bit there ) that was the main reason I didn't get swamped by motoring papperazzi everyday as I left work .... perhaps I should have gone outside and shouted " I have Ferrari parts in here under test!! " still wouldn't have got me any attention Most "non-testing" people who entered the doors of the lab died on contact with the reality of the boredom that is "testing" "stuff"

The guy who won the tender to do the electronics was living in Aust. He was an expat. italian and thats how he made his bucks ... circuit board and software development. So we were the only lab with the RFI and EMI test gear ( matter of fact I think there were only two labs in the world at the time and we were a bit more "removed" from "prying eyes" matter of fact I think he moved here to do the Dev. ?? maybe it was all more "hush hush" than I realised?? ) ..... I got the job of showing him how to use it ... told me some great stuff about the F50 too ..... the Gearbox/Back axle/clutches setup was amazing ...... his "mock-up" test rig was not ... I remember that much, it looked like he used wheelbarrow wheels, like granny had

Now burn this message and eat the ashes ....... and send me your "stools for three months:

you talk a lot but reveal nothing, come on, who where when ? or were you just delivering the news paper

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Nov 16 2007, 08:22 PM) [snapback]101075[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
you talk a lot but reveal nothing, come on, who where when ? or were you just delivering the news paper




Yeah thats right Rog ... I was delivering the paper ... thats what we do for jobs here in Aust.


What specifically do you want to know Rog. ?

Who ..... me!

where .... in the lecco lab.

when ...... 9am each morning

is that all you want to know ?? That was easy.




I worked on far bigger stuff than that too Rog. do you want to know all that too?? I did deliver the odd "paper" ot two too ... but I'm thinking they aren't the type of papers you are thinking

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BarryMachine @ Nov 16 2007, 01:34 AM) [snapback]101049[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>

Now burn this message and eat the ashes ....... and send me your "stools for three months:


But where in Oz?

Only interested as I'm a "part-time" Australian with a house near Brissie, but come over to Europe (dual nationality - marvellous) for contracts. Been doing it for nearly 10 years now and getting fed up of spending so much time away from where I now call home. Never mind, current contract in the UK ends this month so I'll be on the big silver bird back to the warmth.

Cue the hate mail...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Nov 15 2007, 06:43 PM) [snapback]100941[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
as i said, just refinments on existing configs and technology.
what do you think makes a motogp bike a prototype ?


That's right, 'prototype' is just a concept if we speak of a complete bike, which is made of so many parts which can never be all new. Aprilia 125 and 250 kits are produced in fairly large numbers but they are all considered 'prototypes' only because they are raced in the GP series and there is no road version of them.
We could speak of more or less 'rare' racing bikes, that's all. Many superbikes would end up being much more 'rare' than an Aprilia kit.

ok on the "prototyping thing ..... what other series would allow you to fit a new pneumatic valved engine mid season ... without homologation of any sort??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(yamaka46 @ Nov 17 2007, 02:30 AM) [snapback]101113[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>

But where in Oz?


Its not an Automotive lab .... I'll give you that much .....

Besides they weren't after our testing expertise, they wanted our "equipment", RFI and EMI was pretty new stuff back then but was just a sideline to our main area of interest. So when I think of it now that was pretty clever .... "go to the other side of the earth and find a little lab that nobody would think of" ....... mission accomplished

I totally forgot about that whole thing until I was watching Top gear one night and thought, why haven't I seen an F50?? Looks like it was all just a bit too "trick" for the market ..

Ah the money that gets thrown into "new things"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BarryMachine @ Nov 16 2007, 11:43 AM) [snapback]101090[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Yeah thats right Rog ... I was delivering the paper ... thats what we do for jobs here in Aust.
What specifically do you want to know Rog. ?

Who ..... me!

where .... in the lecco lab.

when ...... 9am each morning

is that all you want to know ?? That was easy.


I worked on far bigger stuff than that too Rog. do you want to know all that too?? I did deliver the odd "paper" ot two too ... but I'm thinking they aren't the type of papers you are thinking

well excuse me, its just you come across as to thick to be working in that sort of area... my bad

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BarryMachine @ Nov 17 2007, 12:45 AM) [snapback]101209[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
ok on the "prototyping thing ..... what other series would allow you to fit a new pneumatic valved engine mid season ... without homologation of any sort??


WSB can not change the engine like that, true, but they can do what they want with other things like the whole swingarm, the suspensions, frame 'reinforcements', titanium rods, pistons, intake systems, TC, and so on. In the end you have a thoroughbred racing bike anyway, with some more limitations to keep it from doing the same lap times as the 'prototypes'...