Brno GP 2013: RACE (spoilers)

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It was certainly a reaction. You may have a point about the reaction not being equal and opposite, no one has said Stoner would definitely beat MM, except one poster in regard to PI, whereas you in your initial post expressed certainty that he wouldn't.

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Actually my initial post stated that I believe that not much would change if Stoner were to be there, I'm basing this on his latest results (2012) where he was bested by the two men who are currently getting walloped by MM. This I believe to be a fair assumption when we are talking hypothesis. Of course many factors are at play here, and MM's inherited crew are certainly proving to be the guns of the field this season-the bike needs no further superlatives.


 


The kid (MM) is very, very good of this there is no doubt. But we seem to be always seeing the new 'greatest' in action in recent years, Dani to a degree in 2006, then it was Stoner, then it was Jorge and its now already MM. One cannot help but ponder upon the over-whelming evidence that the rider aids and tech/tyre restrictions in the series are certainly creating a blur in established perception. Since 2007, we've seen rookies (albeit very talented ones) come in and either dominate or be unrealistically impressive in the premier class with seemingly instantaneous success that is certainly either unprecedented for decades or a one-off sort phenomenon rookie like King Kenny-who was the last rookie to win the crown in 1978. Even he only won 4 races that year. 


 


IMO the jump to the premier class is far, far easier than it use to be. Are we seeing a unique grouping of amazingly talented riders, or a unique set of regulations combined with a serious lack of competitive rides, creating phenomenon's.....? 


 


Somehow I feel that we'll be witness to more and more rookies stepping up and possibly even eclipsing MM's current performance in the coming years........ 

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Stoner was walloped by Pedrosa and Lorenzo in 2012 in the same sense that Rossi was walloped by them in 2010, with the exception that imo Rossi was probably more likely to have won without the injury in 2010 than Stoner was without the injury in 2012; Mick Doohan was of course much more likely to win in 1992 without his injury than either of them in those years. This of course has nothing to do with Jorge winning in 2010 and 2012, as it didn't detract from Rainey's victory in 1992, staying on the bike is the prime requirement. Such injuries do very obviously impact the margin of victory however.


 


Stoner wouldn't (again imo only) beat MM with his form and focus prior to his injury in 2012, but would have a chance with the degree of form and focus he showed in 2007 and 2011. Since he managed to show similar form and focus 4 years after 2007 in 2011, I would not see it as logically impossible for him to show such form and focus again if he returned before his dotage; as I have said I don't think he will in any case, particularly since the degree of commitment required to challenge MM  would be as obvious to him as it is to everyone else.


 


If you want to be speculative I don't think MM or quite possibly anyone else would beat Valentino in his prime on the bikes and tyres of Valentino's prime, but the current guys can  do no more than the best that they can on the bikes which are current. I would be surprised if MM ends up having anything like Valentino's longevity at the top anyway.

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...we seem to be always seeing the new 'greatest' in action in recent years, Dani to a degree in 2006, then it was Stoner, then it was Jorge and its now already MM...

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Stoner was walloped by Pedrosa and Lorenzo in 2012 in the same sense that Rossi was walloped by them in 2010, with the exception that imo Rossi was probably more likely to have won without the injury in 2010 than Stoner was without the injury in 2012; Mick Doohan was of course much more likely to win in 1992 without his injury than either of them in those years. This of course has nothing to do with Jorge winning in 2010 and 2012, as it didn't detract from Rainey's victory in 1992, staying on the bike is the prime requirement. Such injuries do very obviously impact the margin of victory however.

 

Stoner wouldn't (again imo only) beat MM with his form and focus prior to his injury in 2012, but would have a chance with the degree of form and focus he showed in 2007 and 2011. Since he managed to show similar form and focus 4 years after 2007 in 2011, I would not see it as logically impossible for him to show such form and focus again if he returned before his dotage; as I have said I don't think he will in any case, particularly since the degree of commitment required to challenge MM  would be as obvious to him as it is to everyone else.

 

If you want to be speculative I don't think MM or quite possibly anyone else would beat Valentino in his prime on the bikes and tyres of Valentino's prime, but the current guys can  do no more than the best that they can on the bikes which are current. I would be surprised if MM ends up having anything like Valentino's longevity at the top anyway.

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Talps, get off the crack, dude! No one other than Dani's ....... mentor and Spaniards thought he was 'great' in '06 or any other year, and even Big Jorge hasn't tried to push JL as the 'greatest'... Don't prevaricate to try to prove yer point bud. Stoner was obviously a gift from the motorbike gods, no need to debate his 'greatness'. MM still needs AT LEAST two more years to see (changing manufactures would help) his true spot in the parthenon.

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3596971377587796

Actually my initial post stated that I believe that not much would change if Stoner were to be there, I'm basing this on his latest results (2012) where he was bested by the two men who are currently getting walloped by MM. This I believe to be a fair assumption when we are talking hypothesis. Of course many factors are at play here, and MM's inherited crew are certainly proving to be the guns of the field this season-the bike needs no further superlatives.


 


The kid (MM) is very, very good of this there is no doubt. But we seem to be always seeing the new 'greatest' in action in recent years, Dani to a degree in 2006, then it was Stoner, then it was Jorge and its now already MM. One cannot help but ponder upon the over-whelming evidence that the rider aids and tech/tyre restrictions in the series are certainly creating a blur in established perception. Since 2007, we've seen rookies (albeit very talented ones) come in and either dominate or be unrealistically impressive in the premier class with seemingly instantaneous success that is certainly either unprecedented for decades or a one-off sort phenomenon rookie like King Kenny-who was the last rookie to win the crown in 1978. Even he only won 4 races that year. 


 


IMO the jump to the premier class is far, far easier than it use to be. Are we seeing a unique grouping of amazingly talented riders, or a unique set of regulations combined with a serious lack of competitive rides, creating phenomenon's.....? 


 


Somehow I feel that we'll be witness to more and more rookies stepping up and possibly even eclipsing MM's current performance in the coming years........ 

Click to expand...

3597151377607145

Stoner was walloped by Pedrosa and Lorenzo in 2012 in the same sense that Rossi was walloped by them in 2010, with the exception that imo Rossi was probably more likely to have won without the injury in 2010 than Stoner was without the injury in 2012; Mick Doohan was of course much more likely to win in 1992 without his injury than either of them in those years. This of course has nothing to do with Jorge winning in 2010 and 2012, as it didn't detract from Rainey's victory in 1992, staying on the bike is the prime requirement. Such injuries do very obviously impact the margin of victory however.


 


Stoner wouldn't (again imo only) beat MM with his form and focus prior to his injury in 2012, but would have a chance with the degree of form and focus he showed in 2007 and 2011. Since he managed to show similar form and focus 4 years after 2007 in 2011, I would not see it as logically impossible for him to show such form and focus again if he returned before his dotage; as I have said I don't think he will in any case, particularly since the degree of commitment required to challenge MM  would be as obvious to him as it is to everyone else.


 


If you want to be speculative I don't think MM or quite possibly anyone else would beat Valentino in his prime on the bikes and tyres of Valentino's prime, but the current guys can  do no more than the best that they can on the bikes which are current. I would be surprised if MM ends up having anything like Valentino's longevity at the top anyway.

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Of note is that I stated that JL and Dani 'bested' Stoner in 2012 and that THEY are currently getting walloped by the rookie. A fair assumption IMO.

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Again, I have agreed with you that Stoner would not beat MM in current form on his (Stoner's) 2012 form. I disagree that 2012 is the sole indication of Stoner's ability, or that the margin by which he lost in 2012 was unaffected by his injury. Riders have been known to beat riders by whom they have been beaten previously, and in fact in the current field both of  Lorenzo's championships were won after being beaten for the championship in the preceding year,  and Valentino obviously won 2 championships in 2008 and 2009 after not winning championships in 2006 and 2007. 

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And again my point is that Honda do not need Stoner at present they are a very comfortable 1-2 in the series with their sat bikes performing very well.


The debate is around tin foil hat style presumptions by some that suppo is still sending secret messages to Stoner in order to entice him back, of which I believe is rubbish due to the fact that they have at this stage got a more than capable replacement who is setting the world on fire on track, great for the sponsors and has instantly won a great deal of support.

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. Who besides Marquez has come in and dominated or been unrealistically impressive in their rookie year. Pedro, nope. Lorenzo, nope, Simoncelli, nope. They were all productive, and you could see the future looked bright for them, but none, nada, no one, has ever had a rookie season like we are witnessing. 20 years from now, it will still be considered an anomoly.Of course it could all end this weekend and we could talk about what may have been. Instead of making excuses, i think we should sit back and enjoy history being made.

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This will be a great thread to read after MM chucks it down in the next three races and Pedrosa becomes World Champion!!!

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This will be a great thread to read after MM chucks it down in the next three races and Pedrosa becomes World Champion!!!


 


Note¹: Sorry Dani fans, this is not a likely scenario.


 


Note²: Are there any Dani fans even on this forum?

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Who has had great debuts? Well lets just talk modern era: Biaggi won his first race, Rossi won several races and came runner up, Pedrosa was also impressive wining races and poles, though had his bike and tires gone to Stoner, history could have likely been rewritten! Lorenzo had an excellent debut as well with poles and wins. What's the difference that u cant seem to get through ur thick skull? A bit of happenstance and favorable PARITY that u and Kropo etal cant seem to understand in ur blind insistence to assign some extraordinary never before witnessed talent. Some of these I listed got hurt or were not on the undisputed superior bike of its day coupled with the stupid bad luck of a crash (to self or in this year to rivals). Marc had (according to Kropo) the highest speed crash ever in the history of mankind, blind stupid luck he didnt .... himself up. Then he would have gone down like Lorenzo 09, with the added benefit of not having to endure the Kroppers over the top love fest and use of exaggeration to describe the kids above average talent (though average to those I listed).


 


Meanwhile, of the 4 win worthy entries (yes u moron, wake the .... up, there were only going to be 4 from the START, and 2 were ridden by actual contenders); well as luck would have it BOTH got hurt. U can site Austin all u want but only the RCV was ever going to win that race. And so Marc beat Pedros (woopty ....... whoo, who ive already made the case he is obviously overrated but u want to believe is still a top 3 world rider). U started off the ....... year with 2 contenders and a talented rookie on a bike clearly SUPERIOR, and u want to assign Jesus' 2nd coming status because hes won the last few races beating the only 2 ..... that could have challenged him anyway? Ur ability to analyze the situation (and this goes for ANYONE of the same opinion) are mental dwarfs at worst, a blind ignorant fanboy at best. Bottomline, this kid isnt dominating SIMPLY because hes that good. Factor in the facts: Honda is undesputabily the far superior package (since exactky a year ago to date...and has only got better), the only other two on competitive bikes are hurt, the domance of the RCV has been so pronounced at some venues (like Austin) similar to what we witnessed when during the tire war, one particular manufacturer's compound dominated; EXCEPT in this case the RCV dominates everywere to different degrees. Yes, Biaggi (to a less extent) than Rossi, Pedro, Stoner (had he gone to the Repsol ride straight away) and Lorenzo were all very impressive rookies not at all less so than Marc, the BIG difference is the reality of the parity underwhich they debuted AND a bit of good/bad blind stupid fortune.


Those of us who admire the feats of racing especially admire the feats of talent on a MotoGP bike, have no problem enjoying what we witness. U confuse this with the ability to put results in perspective!

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If, ifs and buts were candy and nuts, what a wonderful Christmas it would be.


 


Somebody gets hurt every year that has implications of who wins races and the championship. I guess in your eyes, no win or championship is worthy because "if this happened, and but he was hurt, and if he was on this machine. IF IF IF , BUT BUT BUT. Face it Jum, you are a drama  queen who is butt hurt that Marquez is doing well simply because it goes against your childish narrative that he has risen to the top of his sport by cheating and being Spanish.  As far as the bikes, the more emotional you get, the gulf between the Yamaha and Honda widens. Now its SUPERIOR, in caps, where just the other day, the Yamaha was  slightly inferior. I almost hope Lorenzo wins this Sunday, it would be fun watching you rationalize how it happened. Bottom line is, no matter how its happening, you are witnessing the best rookie campaign in the history of the sport, and no ifs and buts are going to change that.

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