Brno GP 2013: RACE (spoilers)

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Talpa
3599501377856993

Nicky went straight to the factory team from a domestic series.......<span style="color:#ff0000;on to the best racing bike ever made.....


You mean the Ducati GP07.....the one with the extra 200HP and "no rider input required" electronics?
 
Mr Squiggle
3599521377859866

You mean the Ducati GP07.....the one with the extra 200HP and "no rider input required" electronics?
 

Hayden went to HRC from AMA not Ducati?


Or are you taking the piss and i'm too serious haha
 
Baffy
3599531377859983

 

Hayden went to HRC from AMA not Ducati?


Or are you taking the piss and i'm too serious haha


You dont expect me to reply to a Talpa post seriously do you?
 
Talpa
3599501377856993

Nicky went straight to the factory team from a domestic series.......on to the best racing bike ever made.....


And won a world championship on that very good bike, whether it was the best or just well in the contest for being the best, rather justifying being given the ride I would have thought, much as MM looks like doing, or is Hayden's 2006 championship another one of those championship wins which didn't really happen?
 
michaelm
3599551377860611

And won a world championship on that very good bike, whether it was the best or just well in the contest for being the best, rather justifying being given the ride I would have thought, much as MM looks like doing, or is Hayden's 2006 championship another one of those championship wins which didn't really happen?


Rather presumptuous of you? How you came to that conclusion is beyond me. For arguments sake no doubt, at least your subtle in trying to constantly discuss your hero unlike other bones....


There has been a few eye brow raising promotions to the top class on the top bike. I was merely referencing one of them. MM's performance in the lower classes in the world championship certainly qualified him for the ride, and his performance thus far has confirmed it.


Nicky's confirmation came four seasons after his promotion, however unlike others he has actually delivered. There is a lot of discussion here about politics in the series, I felt at the time, promoting a rider from a domestic series to the top bike in the top team in the world was certainly influenced by interested parties-notably Honda America. I've read from several notable sources including Rick Broadbent that this was the case.


On the flip side, Dani's record in the lower classes certainly warranted his factory ride, yet he hasn't delivered the title yet......justification? Depends on your POV
 
Talpa
3599611377865783

Rather presumptuous of you? How you came to that conclusion is beyond me. For arguments sake no doubt, at least your subtle in trying to constantly discuss your hero unlike other bones....


There has been a few eye brow raising promotions to the top class on the top bike. I was merely referencing one of them. MM's performance in the lower classes in the world championship certainly qualified him for the ride, and his performance thus far has confirmed it.


Nicky's confirmation came four seasons after his promotion, however unlike others he has actually delivered. There is a lot of discussion here about politics in the series, I felt at the time, promoting a rider from a domestic series to the top bike in the top team in the world was certainly influenced by interested parties-notably Honda America. I've read from several notable sources including Rick Broadbent that this was the case.


On the flip side, Dani's record in the lower classes certainly warranted his factory ride, yet he hasn't delivered the title yet......justification? Depends on your POV


I don't recall ever dismissing any premier class world championship won by anyone, recognising as I do that they are rather hard to come by. I am not sure you can say the same.


 


When Nicky was promoted, btw, riders promoted from superbike championships, even national ones, and particularly the AMA, had a rather strong record extending over most of the previous 25 years, with Alex Criville and Valentino Rossi the exceptions at that time. I rather thought myself then that VR's record was due to his exceptional talent rather than his grounding in the 125s and 250s, but if you wish to disagree that is your prerogative of course.


 


I followed Nicky in the AMA, we got fairly prompt replays on cable TV as you should remember, and he was quite something on a superbike. It has become obvious since under this formula and the previous one which you (justifiably imo) decry that superbikes are not the best current path to the premier class, but that is now, and if you consider the current paradigm, which would have excluded the likes of King Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Schwantz, Doohan and Gardner, to be a good one I am surprised.
 
michaelm
3599621377866061

I don't recall ever dismissing any premier class world championship won by anyone, recognising as I do that they are rather hard to come by. I am not sure you can say the same.

 

When Nicky was promoted, btw, riders promoted from superbike championships, even national ones, and particularly the AMA, had a rather strong record extending over most of the previous 25 years, with Alex Criville and Valentino Rossi the exceptions at that time. I rather thought myself then that VR's record was due to his exceptional talent rather than his grounding in the 125s and 250s, but if you wish to disagree that is your prerogative of course.

 

I followed Nicky in the AMA, we got fairly prompt replays on cable TV as you should remember, and he was quite something on a superbike. It has become obvious since under this formula and the previous one which you (justifiably imo) decry that superbikes are not the best current path to the premier class, but that is now, and if you consider the current paradigm, which would have excluded the likes of King Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Schwantz, Doohan and Gardner, to be a good one I am surprised.


I completely disagree with the lack of opportunity that exists for riders who come from other backgrounds than the lower classes. Mainly due now to the ridiculous restrictions and the bridgestones, Motogp will be exclusively supplied by the lower classes for some time unfortunately as we might miss the next Doohan or Rainey.


Jamie Stauffer was also quite sharp on a superbike, still is. So is his brother Dan. As are many others in the ASBK right now. Imagine the spectacle if one of them was to walk onto a factory Honda or Yamaha next year.....
 
yamaka46
3599461377851652

The fact that the rule became known as the Spies rule is pure journalism as it never affected him getting a factory Yamaha ride. Both seats were under contract signed in 2008 whereas the rule was first written in 2009.  You are normally the first to call such stuff, rather than rely on it for arguments ;)


 


I already pointed out that an exception was made (and I understand that a RULE existed), but it was not made for Bautista per se, rather for Suzuki on the tenuous grounds that they had no satellite team. So the rule had been broken in its first year.  I've also already argued that if HRC had wanted Simoncelli on a factory ride then they would not have signed Dovi & Pedro for 2 years in 2009 - surely they'd have signed at least one of them for only 1 year to allow Simoncelli to enter the factory team asap.  Bradl, Pedrosa and Stoner were already signed for 2012 so no factory seat available, just like Spies.


 


Analogy? Exclusive competitive edge over whom? Not Lorenzo, nor Pedrosa for sure as they went straight to factory teams and that's who he's fighting for wins with. Who, in your opinion did he gain a competitve edge over?


 


You still haven't commented on the other point I made, ie if the rule had not been eliminated then would you have been happy for Marques to have a defacto "factory" team, almost certainly with Stoner's crew a la Rossi in 2000?  Or would that also have been proof of favouritism?  BTW who in your book, other than Hayden doesn't have an asterisk after his WC due to favouritism of one type or another? ;)


 


 


Thanks for taking the time to respond Yama.  With all due respect, you failed to explain the 'relevance'.  Once you conceded that the rule was changed for HRC's interest coupled with Marc's high profile status you lost the argument. 


 


 


You can rationalize circles debating why the elimination of the rule was an emergency for those specific parties most affected, but this STILL doesn't justify it.  Your entire case for eliminating the rookie rule in such dire circumstance is a rationalization.  It doesn't matter if its a good rationalization, its STILL a rationalization.


 


Your last point about championships is again irrelevant, as we are talking about the League's willingness to hastily change the rules that govern the sport.   If you now want to change the subject, I will entertain the thought, but one thing at a time.


 


1. Did the League change the rules to accommodate Marc Marques?  Yes or No


 


Before you answer, allow me to remind you what you said:


 


"Marques is the hottest thing to move up to the main show for quite some time and to not allow him to ride the bike vacated by Stoner because of some BS rule made up in 2009 would have been madness for both Dorna & HRC."  


 


2. Regarding you point whether or not I would have been happy if HRC had been forced to provide him a "defacto factory" team.  First of all, this is irrelevant.  It matters not whether I would be happy or not.  Second, your point here suggests that we should not be happy when one of the participants are made to follow the rules already in place.  Why?  Let me get this straight, so making HRC  provide a rider with a factory spec "satellite" bike and then put in the position that this rider might beat their factory badged bike is a problem for me? Sound like this is a problem for HRC.  Hence why the rule was changed...to accommodate one rider.  That is again, the League chose to change the rules that govern the sport (good or bad) for ONE of its participants.  Any explanation to support such a rule change is rationalization.
 
Talpa
3599651377872090

I completely disagree with the lack of opportunity that exists for riders who come from other backgrounds than the lower classes. Mainly due now to the ridiculous restrictions and the bridgestones, Motogp will be exclusively supplied by the lower classes for some time unfortunately as we might miss the next Doohan or Rainey.


Jamie Stauffer was also quite sharp on a superbike, still is. So is his brother Dan. As are many others in the ASBK right now. Imagine the spectacle if one of them was to walk onto a factory Honda or Yamaha next year.....


We fundamentally agree then, and both of us with Jumkie, taking out allegiances to individual riders.


 


I actually modified my original post, having first said the current and previous formulae were for Spanish midgets as opposed to the likes of the great "golden era" 500 riders, but I do greatly respect Jorge, and if MM continues to ride as he is riding and closes the deal by winning some championships I will rate him similarly, both as riders who would likely have prospered in any era.
 
Jumkie
3599841377893871

Thanks for taking the time to respond Yama.  With all due respect, you failed to explain the 'relevance'.  Once you conceded that the rule was changed for HRC's interest coupled with Marc's high profile status you lost the argument. 


 


 


You can rationalize circles debating why the elimination of the rule was an emergency for those specific parties most affected, but this STILL doesn't justify it.  Your entire case for eliminating the rookie rule in such dire circumstance is a rationalization.  It doesn't matter if its a good rationalization, its STILL a rationalization.


 


Your last point about championships is again irrelevant, as we are talking about the League's willingness to hastily change the rules that govern the sport.   If you now want to change the subject, I will entertain the thought, but one thing at a time.


 


1. Did the League change the rules to accommodate Marc Marques?  Yes or No


 


Before you answer, allow me to remind you what you said:


 


"Marques is the hottest thing to move up to the main show for quite some time and to not allow him to ride the bike vacated by Stoner because of some BS rule made up in 2009 would have been madness for both Dorna & HRC."  


 


2. Regarding you point whether or not I would have been happy if HRC had been forced to provide him a "defacto factory" team.  First of all, this is irrelevant.  It matters not whether I would be happy or not.  Second, your point here suggests that we should not be happy when one of the participants are made to follow the rules already in place.  Why?  Let me get this straight, so making HRC  provide a rider with a factory spec "satellite" bike and then put in the position that this rider might beat their factory badged bike is a problem for me? Sound like this is a problem for HRC.  Hence why the rule was changed...to accommodate one rider.  That is again, the League chose to change the rules that govern the sport (good or bad) for ONE of its participants.  Any explanation to support such a rule change is rationalization.


I'll start by trying to answer your questions. 


1. is easy - yes.  But I believe it was the fairest thing to do as no one else had been affected by a rule I always maintained was BS.  You disagree, fair enough.


 


2. I personally don't think it would have been fair to Marques to affect his entry into the top class in the way that all those he is now competing against were not affected.  That's all riders in MotoGP, not just Lorenzo and Pedrosa.  The league chose to change the rules so that one of its particpants was not affected differently than his competitors. I can see what you mean by rationalisation, but happen to disagree.


 


To me the relevance is the fact that no one else has been affected and so why should Marques be the first.


 


I can also see the fact that Dorna wanted Marques on Stoners bike for the drama it was likely to bring to the Championship, which we are now seeing, but I don't find that a problem.  I am enjoying the racing far more this year than I perhaps would have been if the rule had been kept, plus I bought a Marques mug yesterday at Shiverstone to match the Rossi one I bought in 2000.  I guess this makes me a fanboi - first it was Schwantz, then Doohan, Rossi and now Marques.  I'll still root for Rossi, but have to accept that the guard is changing. 


 


Anyway, nice civilised discussion as always with you, Jums.
 
Fair enuf buddy. Great day at the track. Happy for the Brits given the Moto2 results. One last though, looks like that rookie rule has been reenstated, eh. Hope ur compatriot has fun on the CBR.1 next year. ;)
 
Jumkie
3602021378055048

Fair enuf buddy. Great day at the track. Happy for the Brits given the Moto2 results. One last though, looks like that rookie rule has been reenstated, eh. Hope ur compatriot has fun on the CBR.1 next year. ;)


I agree that it sucks that Redding is getting a CBR.1 whilst EspP gets Crutchlow's bike. 


 


Was indeed a great day at the track - sunburnt and mostly happy given the shenanigans during MotoGP warm-up.  FFS, as the track commentator said, warmup is for checking your settings and running the chain in, not chucking the bike into the gravel!!


 


I guess those that complain that you never give up and just divert the argument when you haven't convinced the other guy will have to shut up now, heh?  ;)
 
yamaka46
3602071378057987

I agree that it sucks that Redding is getting a CBR.1 whilst EspP gets Crutchlow's bike. 


 


Was indeed a great day at the track - sunburnt and mostly happy given the shenanigans during MotoGP warm-up.  FFS, as the track commentator said, warmup is for checking your settings and running the chain in, not chucking the bike into the gravel!!


 


I guess those that complain that you never give up and just divert the argument when you haven't convinced the other guy will have to shut up now, heh?  ;)


 


I enjoyed every word in that exchange.


Thanks guys it made an enjoyable coffee even better ;)


Just read the entire thing from thursday btw.
 
NOT Listened to these guys in a while

i wonder if Krop mentions Junkie need to get a room u2


MP3 DOWNLOAD

Episode 377: How Do You Solve a Problem Like Marc Marquez


Posted on Monday, September 2, 2013 - 16:49 in


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0:06:07 MotoPod meetup

1:26:46 Michael Laverty

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Jim Race introduces our new co-host, Paddock Chatter's Dave Neal, while Martin Darlington and Jules Cisek cover the racing at Indianapolis and Brno.

Interviews with Michael Laverty at Indy, David Emmett at Brno, Josh Hayes in America, and Mark Miller at the Isle of Man. So there.


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http://www.motopodcast.com/episode/episode-377-how-do-you-solve-problem-marc-marquez
 

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