Bombshell!! Casey Stoner signs with Honda!

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povol said:
So, if Stoner wheels off 5 or six titles and has 15-20 total wins over Doohan, he will never be Doohans equal. Because what, he doesnt fit your idea of grit and determination. Besides the inability to let go of a childhood hero, i do not understand that mindset at all. I get what your saying, it was a phase i went thru in my 30's. My childhood sports favorites are still my all time favorites, its an imprint thing,even though in some sports,your childhood favorite might not make the roster in todays games. If Doohan is your guy, he is your guy, i get that, i just dont get the lack of respect that Stoner receives from the GP community at large. It would be interesting to see what the perception of Rossi would be if he suffered an injury like Doohans. Would he show that grit and toughness
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Povol,



Doohan is hardly my childhood hero - after all I am many years his elder.



Now, to your point - nope, Stoner will not be the equal of MD irrespective of whatever he does with his career and whilst my reasoning for that may be unfathomable to you, then that is not my issue nor concern. Suffice to say that in my 20+ years of watching and enjoying MGP, officiating at numerous motorcycling events (road, dirt and supermotard), running of ride and track days etc there is yet to be a rider whom I have seen from Oz at the highest level that can compete with MD.



Now, before you decide to launch into any diatribe (if you choose to do so) I suggest that you read many of my posts before judging or assuming that I am in fact showing any disrespect towards Stoner as I have been accused by some of being a bopper of the red variety because I defend him. Just that for me (and my true childhood hero was Hansford) Stoner is totally incomparable to MD in to many ways to mention that it is unjust to even try.



Now, as to your last point I suggest that you search back many years when it was a discussion that was had when that very type of question was asked (and some shouted down) which is how the career of VR (and others) would have developed had he suffered the injuries of days past. Thankfully we cannot know now or ever as we are in an era of increased safety for the riders such that we seem to have less of the type of injuries suffered in the MD era of bikes (let us not forget the career ending injuries of Puig et al as well).









Gaz
 
VHMP01 said:
Like you said, Rossi needs no help today. But even at Factory Teams: "There is no way that they give the same stuff". Back in 2000 / 2001 Nastro Azzurro was not Honda's #1 Bike, obviously not being #1 Team. It was not Michelin's #1 focus either, remember they do not supply Rookies the best stuff? As Stoner said.



Rossi did not have the Curriculum he now has ten years later!
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It is redundant to say so, but rossi of course performed outstandingly well in both 2000 and 2001. It has begun to recede into the mists of time, but I imagine the defending world champion was honda's first priority at the start of 2000, until he proved not only unable to improve the presumably predominantly doohan/burgess developed nsr 500, but to have an uncanny knack for developing it to be progressively worse. Rossi both by his on track performance and rapidly apparent developmental ability I am sure garnered increasing and well merited support from hrc over the course of the season. You are kidding if you are suggesting the nastro azzurro eqipe with mick doohan's 5 times championship winning crew was comparable with the shoestring (?dorna instigated/supported) 2006 lcr team though, or that valentino didn't have a full factory supported bike in 2001. He could hardly have done any better than he did in 2000 though, with only KR sr winning in his debut season even on a full-factory bike in the last 35 years as far as I know, and could obviously only ride the bike provided to him by his team to which he was contracted like any other rider. He certainly out performed stoner or any of the other current riders as a rookie as he has all riders in history in his subsequent career.
 
Sadly, what this whole discussion seems to highlight once again, is the decline of competitive satellite bikes. 2006 really was the the last year there non-factory efforts had any real success, and even then it was only the Gresini Honda's, I believe.
 
TP70 said:
That is a great article. I think if a few of the Stoner detractors went back and read the whole article they would be hard pushed not to change their opinions of him. He gives a lot of credit and respect to the people who helped him break into the series and I also found his comments about why he wasn't concerned about getting lower class championships very interesting. He obviously knew where he wanted to be and was singularly focused on getting there. He does not come across at all weak minded like some weak minded people like to suggest he is. My level of respect for him just went up a notch.
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If I wear yellow glasses you were a blod red blindfold! .... man get real.

Sure there are other things both interesting and nice but that interview will forever be remembered for those few sentences and can only be remembered for those sentences

I seldom comment on riders outburst's like that, and if I do it's mainly to put into a perspective of racing, but I have to say, out of all other quotes from stoner where others find something to dislike Stoner for this is the only one I reacted on, in fact it's about the only outburst from any rider I can remember that I reacted really negatively on. It's just way out there with the lex files, and it was a sad day in Stoner's race history and an interview he no doubt regret ever giving. He was a 21 yr old brat on the top of world leading the championship. He and his family has always fighted hard to get the best equipment possible, and now he had the best and crushing the opposition. In that light it's easy to forgive him such an outrageous outburst, but from there to defend the outburst....

Priceless.
<
 
stiefel said:
Well, as I have said, if it's enough for you, so be it. It's fact for you, it appears to be slander to me.



What I do object to a bit, and I hope your not taking this to much as picking a fight (that's not my intention), is that you claim something as truth, but when asked for any evidence, you tell me to go look for it myself. But maybe I'm being a bit too critical here.



cheers!
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Listen mate. I speak from memory not from google. I dropped the comment that several other vaguely remembered also hence my 'common knowledge' comment. You can object all you like to me not being bothered to dig up years old info just because you have never heard of it. Your more than capable of googling yourself, After all its you requiring the proof not me. I remember the proof (interview provided by matt) so see no need for me to spend time on this. I'm surprised you didn't remember this bizarre claims yourself as i said it was well publicised at the time. Maybe your very new to motgp ?

You say you're not picking a fight with me yet you insult me by calling me slanderous
<
 
Babelfish said:
and now he had the best and crushing the opposition. In that light it's easy to forgive him such an outrageous outburst, but from there to defend the outburst....

Priceless.
<
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I would agree this was not an edifying interview (I think I said so at the time) , and even if true ( which I don't believe was so in its entirety at least) it would have been best not to say it. However, he did at least wait till he showed what he could do before making such comments, and as I have said earlier in the thread did not criticise honda , michelin or lcr whilst contracted to them; some greater than him have not shown similar restraint at times whilst still riding for bike or tyre manufacturers. Subsequent developments would suggest honda at least didn't take too much offense.



Your statement about him having the best is still a matter of supposition, and reflective of what probably prompted his attitude at the time, when it was widely held that the ducati had magical traction control and rode itself . It has since emerged that the screamer ducati whilst undoubtedly fast required considerable rider input to extract the pace, as marco melandri and nicky hayden will attest, and it is vaguely possible stoner was in a position to know this at the time.
 
chopperman said:
Listen mate. I speak from memory not from google. I dropped the comment that several other vaguely remembered also hence my 'common knowledge' comment. You can object all you like to me not being bothered to dig up years old info just because you have never heard of it. Your more than capable of googling yourself, After all its you requiring the proof not me. I remember the proof (interview provided by matt) so see no need for me to spend time on this. I'm surprised you didn't remember this bizarre claims yourself as i said it was well publicised at the time. Maybe your very new to motgp ?

You say you're not picking a fight with me yet you insult me by calling me slanderous
<
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Perhaps I have not been clear enough. I have not called you slanderous, but indicated that, to me, without some proof the statement that Stoner claimed Honda spies were messing with his bike seemed like slander. I also clearly indicated that I accept that was truthful fact to you. Live and let live, as far as I'm concerned, I wasn't in the business of convincing people of something, I was just curious about the validity of this particular statement.



Concerning the googling: As far as I am concerned, if you make a factual statement, the burden of proof is on you. However, I am aware that in the internet/message board situation, this may not always be feasible. I believe I clearly stated that I could understand if you would not want to go through the trouble. Perhaps you read more cynicism into that than there really was?



Might I add that, thanks to the article, I could revise my opinion in this matter, as I explained a few posts ago. So once more, thanks to the poster of that interview.

And thanks for asking, I've been into motogp since about 2004, although I have been following things off and on for some time before that (let's just say I'm old enough to remember seeing races in the last golden 2-stroke era).



Hope that settles that.

cheers!
 
stiefel said:
As far as I am concerned, if you make a factual statement, the burden of proof is on you.
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In what bizarro world is this true? Any ..... can open his/her yap and make a "factual statement". It is entirely up to the consumer of the statement to verify its validity.
 
Mick D said:
In what bizarro world is this true? Any ..... can open his/her yap and make a "factual statement". It is entirely up to the consumer of the statement to verify its validity.
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Yeah especially for something any fan worth his/her salt would have known about anyway
<
But i guess his admission the article and there for my remark was true and not slander is as much of an apology im likely to get.
<
 
Mick D said:
In what bizarro world is this true? Any ..... can open his/her yap and make a "factual statement". It is entirely up to the consumer of the statement to verify its validity.
Click to expand...



Thankfully, it is true in the bizarro world I usually operate in.
 
michaelm said:
It is redundant to say so, but rossi of course performed outstandingly well in both 2000 and 2001. It has begun to recede into the mists of time, but I imagine the defending world champion was honda's first priority at the start of 2000, until he proved not only unable to improve the presumably predominantly doohan/burgess developed nsr 500, but to have an uncanny knack for developing it to be progressively worse. Rossi both by his on track performance and rapidly apparent developmental ability I am sure garnered increasing and well merited support from hrc over the course of the season. You are kidding if you are suggesting the nastro azzurro eqipe with mick doohan's 5 times championship winning crew was comparable with the shoestring (?dorna instigated/supported) 2006 lcr team though, or that valentino didn't have a full factory supported bike in 2001. He could hardly have done any better than he did in 2000 though, with only KR sr winning in his debut season even on a full-factory bike in the last 35 years as far as I know, and could obviously only ride the bike provided to him by his team to which he was contracted like any other rider. He certainly out performed stoner or any of the other current riders as a rookie as he has all riders in history in his subsequent career.
Click to expand...



Honda? Honda thinks it is the ‘Bike’ and ‘Engineers’, meaning the ‘Brand’, Not simply the ‘Rider’ and his ‘Crew’, remember? Isn’t that why Rossi / Burgess left them? Nastro Azzurro definitely were not getting #1 stuff straight out of the oven, probably a race or two afterwards, maybe even as soon as their #2 Factory Repsol YPF Honda Team with Criville and Ukawa. This has been confirmed up to recent years by Riders complaining, as Lorenzo did, or a couple of years back with Stoner’s claims. If we had access to all time Riders opinions, I am sure it has always happened, it is obvious as Factories want to get investment return as sure as possible.



Also there is Michelin at play, not only Honda, and as Stoner stated too, Rookies or Novices are not the main focus or priority in their supply list.



Rossi needs no stats help today, 7 Championships later, but in his early couple of years, he was only starting to build a reputation of probably the next best ever. Years in which he was not getting all the #1 stuff from all suppliers.







 
chopperman said:
Yeah especially for something any fan worth his/her salt would have known about anyway
<
But i guess his admission the article and there for my remark was true and not slander is as much of an apology im likely to get.
<
Click to expand...



Do you feel like I need to apologize? What for? As I've explained, I have not called you a slanderous or a slanderous person, but only pointed out that I believed a certain statement was slander, and without some proof to the contrary, would continue to do so.
 
stiefel said:
Thankfully, it is true in the bizarro world I usually operate in.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... what world does stiefel usually operate in?



Student/Acedemic world? Nope, smart students question the "factual statements" made by their educators, and academic's "factual statements" are subject to peer review.



Business world? Nope, businessmen learn to do their due diligence before accepting the "factual statements" of their co-workers, suppliers, clients or competitors.



Government/politics? Nope, government's "factual statements" are critiqued by everyone from opposition parties to media to the general public and politicians do not make "factual statements".



Drug/criminal world? Nope, only an ..... would buy an ounce without weighing it and criminals have police and judiciary to scutinize the validity of their "factual statements".



What's left? I've got it! You are usually operating in the...



RELIGIOUS world!!! You take everything on faith and expect a higher power to lead you to the truth...
 
stiefel said:
Do you feel like I need to apologize? What for? As I've explained, I have not called you a slanderous or a slanderous person, but only pointed out that I believed a certain statement was slander, and without some proof to the contrary, would continue to do so.
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Hey Rog are you a Trailer Park Boys fan, or did you even know that was Jim Lahey - Park Manager!!
 
VHMP01 said:
Honda? Honda thinks it is the ‘Bike’ and ‘Engineers’, meaning the ‘Brand’, Not simply the ‘Rider’ and his ‘Crew’, remember? Isn’t that why Rossi / Burgess left them? Nastro Azzurro definitely were not getting #1 stuff straight out of the oven, probably a race or two afterwards, maybe even as soon as their #2 Factory Repsol YPF Honda Team with Criville and Ukawa. This has been confirmed up to recent years by Riders complaining, as Lorenzo did, or a couple of years back with Stoner’s claims. If we had access to all time Riders opinions, I am sure it has always happened, it is obvious as Factories want to get investment return as sure as possible.



Also there is Michelin at play, not only Honda, and as Stoner stated too, Rookies or Novices are not the main focus or priority in their supply list.



Rossi needs no stats help today, 7 Championships later, but in his early couple of years, he was only starting to build a reputation of probably the next best ever. Years in which he was not getting all the #1 stuff from all suppliers.
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With respect, this is not a question of what their overall philosophy is now, or of what they have done recently or might do in the future under the current cost structures , but what they did in 2001; I think you will find most would concede he had a full factory bike and certainly a full factory team. After a disastrous 2000 season, criville proceeded to have an equally disastrous 2001 season and developed health problems leading to the eventual termination of his employment with honda. Valentino's 2001 world championship win was brilliant and dominant, on a bike which he developed and sorted, why do you feel the need to embroider it further?



Honda's subsequent demise was imo caused by the attitude engendered by doohan 's 5 championships and rossi's 3 after which they assumed the bikes sorted themselves despite evidence to the contrary from alex criville, whereas in fact these championships relied heavily even apart from their riding ability on the developmental ability of two great bike developing riders and a great race engineer. They didn't treat doohan any differently to rossi, regularly giving his set-up to other honda riders including alex criville, which if I recall didn't please mick greatly. I think at one stage early in the doohan years the top 5 hondas were reputed to be identical.
 
Babelfish said:
If I wear yellow glasses you were a blod red blindfold! .... man get real.

Sure there are other things both interesting and nice but that interview will forever be remembered for those few sentences and can only be remembered for those sentences

I seldom comment on riders outburst's like that, and if I do it's mainly to put into a perspective of racing, but I have to say, out of all other quotes from stoner where others find something to dislike Stoner for this is the only one I reacted on, in fact it's about the only outburst from any rider I can remember that I reacted really negatively on. It's just way out there with the lex files, and it was a sad day in Stoner's race history and an interview he no doubt regret ever giving. He was a 21 yr old brat on the top of world leading the championship. He and his family has always fighted hard to get the best equipment possible, and now he had the best and crushing the opposition. In that light it's easy to forgive him such an outrageous outburst, but from there to defend the outburst....

Priceless.
<
Click to expand...



Pretty full on response there Babel. A few sentences does not make a 3 page article but even if it did I still don't see the big fuss. Of course manufacturers assist the rider they want to win win. Why then is it so strange that a manufacture might hold back a rider that threatens their #1 rider who ever that maybe. Far be it for me to suggest what Stoner felt from his bike on race day compared to practice. If he did indeed feel a complete difference and I do believe he is qualified to assess the feel of a bike then there must be some reason for it. If it was not his team then it could only have been either michelin or honda. I am not entirely sure about the goings on in a pit 24 hours a day over the 3-4 days of a race weekend and who has access to the pit but I would not be surprised if Honda and Michelin engineers have access to a satellite bike and pit over the course of the weekend.



To be honest I always thought it was Lucio who was messing with the set up and never have I thought it was Honda or Michelin. I have always agreed that Michelin gave him crap tyres and suspected that his tyres on race day were potential different to the tyres he practiced on but then back then every Michelin rider was handed their race tyres on race day with some of them getting special over night tyres. I still don't believe that Honda messed with his bike. I think it was Lucio but Casey does not want to directly point the finger at someone who helped him a lot to get to where he is. At the stage the interview he had was made he had no loyalty to Honda as he had ridden on their bike for a grand total of 1 year in his many years of racing.



Glad we are back to disagreeing, as it feels far more normal!
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