With respect, this is not a question of what their overall philosophy is now, or of what they have done recently or might do in the future under the current cost structures
No problem mate. It is not a question of philosophy eras, but as you point out, current cost structures affect today. So we could consider much less TV viewers, less races per Season, not so many fans, cheaper Rider Salaries, etc. back in 2000 / 2001. There are arguments both ways here too, and could play against Riders in those years.
but what they did in 2001; I think you will find most would concede he had a full factory bike and certainly a full factory team.
Factories won’t accept it as much as they would not accept doing it to Stoner or Lorenzo. This means that: ‘most would concede’, are simply words in the air.
After a disastrous 2000 season, criville proceeded to have an equally disastrous 2001 season and developed health problems leading to the eventual termination of his employment with honda. Valentino's 2001 world championship win was brilliant and dominant, on a bike which he developed and sorted, why do you feel the need to embroider it further?
I feel the need, simply because if Lorenzo states the same matter of not getting the same stuff, most fans base their arguments against Yamaha with it. When Stoner stated the same matter, his fans relay in his word against the same matter. If we keep digging, I am sure it has always happened yet Manufactures will always say they are giving their 2 Factory bikes and perhaps a couple of Satellites ‘the same stuff’, which clearly is not true.
Also the Criville bad 2000 Season does not really matter, Pedrosa has not gotten great Seasons for 4 Years now, and still is Honda’s #1 Focus since the beginning, ask Hayden!
Honda's subsequent demise was imo caused by the attitude engendered by doohan 's 5 championships and rossi's 3 after which they assumed the bikes sorted themselves despite evidence to the contrary from alex criville, whereas in fact these championships relied heavily even apart from their riding ability on the developmental ability of two great bike developing riders and a great race engineer.
I think this is the main point, more than getting ‘the same stuff’ as Honda’s Factory #1 bike or main Michelin Rider. Rider, developmental and Engineer’s ability… put together without ‘the same stuff’ kicked butt in 2000 / 2001!
They didn't treat doohan any differently to rossi, regularly giving his set-up to other honda riders including alex criville, which if I recall didn't please mick greatly. I think at one stage early in the doohan years the top 5 hondas were reputed to be identical.
Yeah, that’s what Honda has and will always say… Dovisiozo, De Puniet and Simoncelli are supposed to be identical to Pedrosa’s bike! Do they get 5 chasis to try out as Pedrosa does.
Tell me michaelm, if De Puniet wan 2010, would he be doing it in a Factory Bike as stated by Honda
Pretty full on response there Babel. A few sentences does not make a 3 page article but even if it did I still don't see the big fuss. Of course manufacturers assist the rider they want to win win. Why then is it so strange that a manufacture might hold back a rider that threatens their #1 rider who ever that maybe. Far be it for me to suggest what Stoner felt from his bike on race day compared to practice. If he did indeed feel a complete difference and I do believe he is qualified to assess the feel of a bike then there must be some reason for it. If it was not his team then it could only have been either michelin or honda. I am not entirely sure about the goings on in a pit 24 hours a day over the 3-4 days of a race weekend and who has access to the pit but I would not be surprised if Honda and Michelin engineers have access to a satellite bike and pit over the course of the weekend.
To be honest I always thought it was Lucio who was messing with the set up and never have I thought it was Honda or Michelin. I have always agreed that Michelin gave him crap tyres and suspected that his tyres on race day were potential different to the tyres he practiced on but then back then every Michelin rider was handed their race tyres on race day with some of them getting special over night tyres. I still don't believe that Honda messed with his bike. I think it was Lucio but Casey does not want to directly point the finger at someone who helped him a lot to get to where he is. At the stage the interview he had was made he had no loyalty to Honda as he had ridden on their bike for a grand total of 1 year in his many years of racing.
Glad we are back to disagreeing, as it feels far more normal!
It can simply be that Teams and Manufactures try to protect their Riders Confidence by making some sort of excuse in order to take the pressure off, like ‘fuel control’ not working on the last laps for Pedrosa at Jerez 2010, which a lot of people in the paddock did not really believe. So maybe Stoner was pushing too hard on race day and needed a pivot pressure release afterwards. Who knows, if Stoners statements are to be believed, I see no reason why Rossi in 2001 ‘not getting the same stuff’ is farfetched.
michaelm' date='17 May 2010 - 01:20 AM' timestamp='1274077236' post='238107 said:
I don't believe the bike tampering overnight thing either, and did not when it was first said .
I think it is possible though that stoner was told he was getting the same stuff as pedrosa, and even possible that he believed this to be true at the time, particularly since he actually said so during 2006. if so he was certainly naive, but more than a few posters on here have professed the same thing.
So anybody believing it is ‘the same stuff’ is naive? My point from the beginning!
Jumkie' date='17 May 2010 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1274121065' post='238163 said:
You know the answer to this question. Did Pedrosa have a 2nd rate Honda his rookie year? How about the next, and the next? Not all rookies are created equal compa.
You are correct... Pedrosa, Dorna, Repsol, Honda sucking up... Too much influences towards a created 'Next Best thing' Rookie. Hardly the same Rossi confronted back in 2000 / 2001. Less being against the likes of Criville (Spanish), Abe (Japanise), McCoy (australian), Roberts (USA), because other Italians as Biaggi or Capirossi would not make a difference. Not me, but you know Spanish do like Italians that much winning in one of their most invested Sports (far far away from Soccer thought).
xx CURVE xx' date='17 May 2010 - 09:03 AM' timestamp='1274105002' post='238139 said:
Mick raced with broken bones and bleeding wounds on many occasions while Stoner stayed home 90 days with a tummy ache..hows that for a bit of reasoning?
You crack me up Curve !!!
