I think that Spies needs 11 points to get the best Rookie season ever on a satelite bike. Hopefully he races at Valencia
I doubt anyone is bothered about such an insignificant stat like that. Spies wasn't even bothered about being rookie of the year
Best season of all time .... ?
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I doubt anyone is bothered about such an insignificant stat like that. Spies wasn't even bothered about being rookie of the year
Yes, i think that is something worth riding for. He's already got his factory job lined up, but its nice if he can make the point beyond any doubt (if anybody still has any)
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The "what if world" is the world of Rossi fans, i was trying to look at things from their perspective. It has been determined by most Rossi fans, that IF Rossi had not gotten hurt, he would have won the title. Its silly when you apply that IF thinking to someone else, isnt it.
Why dont you tell us what Hayden fans or especially you think these days. it looks like you have found a nice therapy for forgeting your Real pain after every gp.
i saw, today you have looked more than a few times from our perspective in different threads.
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Was Lorenzo's season the best of all time? NO
There are SO many ways to look at this. Many are objective/quantifiable. The magic in it for me is what SPEAKS to me. More subjective, like "what is the best piece of music?"
I doubt that ANYONE will look at the 800cc era as one in which the best season happened. Grids are so small. Bikes aren't so fun to watch. Some amazing things are going on though. Spies' rookie season on new tracks for him has been amazing. Beautiful! There have been a few wonderful battles (Rossi-Lorenzo, Spies-Dovi). Lorenzo certainly deserves the title and smacked it down with authority that should continue to garner some respect even from the Dr.
Overall? Does anyone think this has been a particularly compelling season? NEXT YEAR will be more interesting for sure, and 2012 is likely to be even better.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give us a bigger grid when we get the 1000cc's back!
p.s. Rossi's first season on the Yamaha was BEAUTIFUL. Wow! What a story!
There are SO many ways to look at this. Many are objective/quantifiable. The magic in it for me is what SPEAKS to me. More subjective, like "what is the best piece of music?"
I doubt that ANYONE will look at the 800cc era as one in which the best season happened. Grids are so small. Bikes aren't so fun to watch. Some amazing things are going on though. Spies' rookie season on new tracks for him has been amazing. Beautiful! There have been a few wonderful battles (Rossi-Lorenzo, Spies-Dovi). Lorenzo certainly deserves the title and smacked it down with authority that should continue to garner some respect even from the Dr.
Overall? Does anyone think this has been a particularly compelling season? NEXT YEAR will be more interesting for sure, and 2012 is likely to be even better.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give us a bigger grid when we get the 1000cc's back!
p.s. Rossi's first season on the Yamaha was BEAUTIFUL. Wow! What a story!
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And yet two of the possible best seasons of alltime ( ) have come from the 800 era
those best seasons ( for a rider ) being :
1997 Doohan ( 500 )
2002 Rossi ( 990 but I don't feel this season warrants inclusion as it was against a large field on 500's )
2005 Rossi ( 990 )
2007 Stoner ( 800 )
2010 Lorenzo ( 800 )
It could be argued that there have been more "best seasons" on 800's than 990's.
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And yet two of the possible best seasons of alltime ( ) have come from the 800 eraIts going to shock some of you guys when 1,000's are back. I tend to agree with burgess in that the premier size for a fast GP motorcycle engine is no longer 1,000cc.
those best seasons ( for a rider ) being :
1997 Doohan ( 500 )
2002 Rossi ( 990 but I don't feel this season warrants inclusion as it was against a large field on 500's )
2005 Rossi ( 990 )
2007 Stoner ( 800 )
2010 Lorenzo ( 800 )
It could be argued that there have been more "best seasons" on 800's than 990's.
Best seasons being just in terms of # of points then? Respectfully though, don't you think there are a TON of other important contextual aspects?!
And re CC's don't you miss the slides? I know tires have come a long way since the 990's already and 2012 will be a new dealio, but still. We are blessed with a really strong and large set of front runners, so there is no lack of strong riders. VERY COOL.
Here's to hoping that Rossi and Stoner come out swinging. I am already fired up about the 1st race of next year! Much more than this year or (or several yrs for that matter). Lots of variables! Lots of promise!
-- Yamaha and Lorenzo lost their development guidance from the Dr but have Spies (who IS an alien). There is little doubting Lorenzo's riding talent, is there? Or Spies?!
-- Honda is on the upswing with development and have Stoner (this guy is F'n fast...what throttle control!) w/ the first 3 bike team in a long time (great lineup w/ Pedro and Dovi!). That is a NICE motor they have come up with. I see the Stoner - Pedrosa battle as being FUN to watch unfold. Stoner has a fight in him that Pedrosa lacks in my opinion.
-- OH WHAT A STORY of Rossi and Burgess at Ducati (Ducati already being the David to the Japanese Goliaths)! Can they do the development needed?? I sure hope so. If they can get that thing up in front it is going to be SWEET.
Has there been any more info re teams lining up entries into 2012? BMW? Additional satellite teams? Could be quite a treat.
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Like you say, Lorenzo's achivement is Surely deserved and deserves respect.
Nice example about music and taste, yes that has a lot to do with it, but apart from that records are there to give us an idea about the highest/most/greatest/biggest/fastest/ in every sport, they are records/facts/numbers and some/i take them serious.(of cource it doesn't work 100% always)
If Horhay scores more points, he will make a new record/limit and that's always a great achivement and great for the sport and Lorenzo and his fans.(I remember in 2008 i liked it a lot when Rossi scored that much points and podiums and records, even he had already won the championship)
Though imo the name of this thread is not exactly right, as i guess many fans will rate the best season based on the excitement and not on the winner's total points.
For example It could have been named most competetive season, or the strongest season or the best season from the rider's view.
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I think I get the gist of what is being put forth about the value of statistics and overall points ... but even if 99 does bust out enough pts to best Rossi's record, might one (anyone) still perhaps end up with "yeah, but only because Rossi was injured riding dirt bikes" or "yeah but only because he had Rossi's development on the bike" etc etc as another legitimate contextual consideration? #'s only seem to tell part of the story I suppose.
(Note edit to better express what originally intended) - Dave
I can't help but think that the least interesting seasons would be the ones with best points #'s so I would put more weight elsewhere. Jorge has gotten respect for sure as he has developed as both a rider and person in general. Props to him! Back in 250's I thought he was way out performed by Dani, and that Jorge's digs on him both on the bike and off were juvenile. That and that year when he won the 250 title with all those exorbitant celebrations etc left me with distaste for him. ALL of which are more than forgiven. Brilliant season!
By the way - IS THERE ANYONE THAT DOESN'T THINK THE 1000cc CHANGE IS GOING TO BE A SUBSTANTIAL IMPROVEMENT? I think the whole 800cc and limit on motors has been a pile of crap.
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No. That was the point of my question in the thread. I guess I was opening it up for discussion as to what others see as the "best season" However, I must admit I had not even entertained the thought, at the time, of the "best" season being for reasons of "BEAUTY"
Me. I'll put it this way ...... in my younger days we rode 500cc two stroke dirt bikes, Then Suzuki came out with a 370 for the open class ( which we all called "the 500's back then ...... possibly out of shear redneckedness ...... and said "PFFFT" to tiny 370's!
With respect to GP ...... are there many 990 era lap records still standing?
To be honest I'd open the class up to anything above say 750cc and then let the developers answer it with what they come up with as the best sized machine for running around GP tracks. It may even be interesting to let them change the capacity for each track though I supect that would be a tad expensive for modern day teams. They would however gain a huge understanding of the whole engine size issue.
Here's a question for you ..... what capacity bike could you get around say .... Estoril the fastest? Why 990/1000? ( if thats what you say ) .......
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even 08-09
Every winter break i go back through season.. started early this year :lol... from the 500s, 990s, and 800s?...800s have been the most boring races EVER in motorcycle gran prix racing..period. no matter who won.
We have a Winner.^^^
Best season ever yeah ??? go with 1990..or the 990 period mixed it up
but 2007-10/11/12 AINT GOING TO DO ....
from a few week ago
Only fifteen took the checkered flag, with the DNF for Capirossi and the practice crash for Pedrosa, at the Japanese GP. Everyone scored points then, and this is nothing new. It is something - amongst others - that should be drawing the attention of the FIM.
Long gone are the days when you needed to be on the “grading list” to compete. Today the problem is the opposite, and the premier class of motorcycle racing is gasping for air, as year after year the starting grid is shrinking. There are more teams throwing in the towel than there are teams knocking on the door, and it has been a while now that the satellite teams have been knocking on Dorna's door to ask for money. Dorna can no longer afford it, financially speaking, but they also can't afford to have a starting grid of 15 or so bikes.
It's a problem that has been in the making for years now. Ever since Ezpeleta was reassured by the Japanese manufacturers that they would make more bikes available for leasing, without it ever actually happening. This is how we went from 23 bikes on the starting grid in 2003, to 20 in 2006. Then Kawasaki pulled out, and, as is the latest talk, Suzuki now wants to field a single rider/bike, only because Alvaro Bautista already has a contract in place.
Let's not beat around the bush: it is this dearth of participants that has led organizers to welcome Karel Abraham's new team with open arms. But no sooner than one arrives, another announces its departure: Honda-Interwetten has announced that they cannot continue on, and the the unfortunate Aoyama is out in the cold.
Obviously something is very wrong, but for the moment the only solution is a return to 1000cc engines, including those derived from production bikes. The likely result will be a migration of teams from World Superbike to MotoGP, which is akin to saying, 'I am suffering, but having you suffer as well makes me feel better.' Misery loves company.
The real solution, of course, would be something different. A consistent rules package, regulations regarding entry into the series, and above all else, a ceiling on leasing costs. Actually, we need to eliminate leasing all together, as it has become a series hindrance to the category. In the days of the legendary Suzuki RG 500, you purchase your race machines. Franco Uncini, using a private version of one, finished fourth overall in the championship: the year was 1980. Things were better in the bad old days.
In that season, 27 riders scored championship points. How many factory riders were there? Less than there are now, but how many really deserve factory support right now? And as a trade-off, those who showed promise and made their way up the standings were able to find a spot in a factory team. It happened to Marco Lucchinelli, and it happened to Franco Uncini.
Ten years later and we are in the year 1990, where 35 rider would score points during the season. Outside the top ten you found Pierfrancesco Chili, Alex Barros, and Randy Mamola, amongst others.
Continuing on, in 2000, just ten years ago, 31 finished with points. Who was outside the top ten? Some names: Nobuatsu Aoki, Taddy Okada, Regis Laconi, but also Van den Goorbergh, McWilliams, Gibernau and Harada.
So we had adequate human resources, bikes available and money to run them. And someone, as always, was profiting nicely from it. But it would be too easy to lay all the blame on Dorna. The Spanish company has certainly made some mistakes, but the FIM and IRTA were both there watching it all unfold.
And this, to us, is actually the greater crime.
To score points, all you have to do is show up.
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The 800cc packed with electronics and designed for high corner speed may have broken all the lap records, but who cares? They are expensive, complicated, boring bikes best suited for your typical 250 riders. And they are as dangerous as the old 500cc! So many injured riders, even with such a small grid.
The only exciting moments in this era have been provided by the usual supplier, Valentino Rossi. Thanks to him. The 800cc however have risked killing his career, as they have effectively killed the careers of riders like Hayden, Capirossi, Melandri, Hopkins who could never really adapt to these new bikes.
1000cc will not do much for the racing now, unless the electronics are binned and the fuel limit is raised. See how F1 has come back to life after disposing of most electronic aids. For once, we should follow the example set by F1. Then maybe we'll have again seasons really worth to be remembered.
The only exciting moments in this era have been provided by the usual supplier, Valentino Rossi. Thanks to him. The 800cc however have risked killing his career, as they have effectively killed the careers of riders like Hayden, Capirossi, Melandri, Hopkins who could never really adapt to these new bikes.
1000cc will not do much for the racing now, unless the electronics are binned and the fuel limit is raised. See how F1 has come back to life after disposing of most electronic aids. For once, we should follow the example set by F1. Then maybe we'll have again seasons really worth to be remembered.
Not really. In 2005/6 the bikes were bareley sliding, the main difference visually between now and then is that they wheelied more out of the corners, which i do miss. I think comparing the 990's to the current 800's always comes off in favour of the 800. Just like the moto2 bikes this year compared to the 250's they replaced, 990's seemed a bit clumsy and cumbersome like something you'd expect in the superbike paddock. And anyway i don't think the capacity is to blame for the spread out racing, i'm convinced things would be just as bad if we'd kept 990's.
It's not nearly as David and Goliath as the production departments would suggest. It's my understanding that Ducati Course is as big and well funded as any of the teams out there.
Oh and welcome to the forum
The 800cc packed with electronics and designed for high corner speed may have broken all the lap records, but who cares? They are expensive, complicated, boring bikes best suited for your typical 250 riders. And they are as dangerous as the old 500cc! So many injured riders, even with such a small grid.
The only exciting moments in this era have been provided by the usual supplier, Valentino Rossi. Thanks to him. The 800cc however have risked killing his career, as they have effectively killed the careers of riders like Hayden, Capirossi, Melandri, Hopkins who could never really adapt to these new bikes.
1000cc will not do much for the racing now, unless the electronics are binned and the fuel limit is raised. See how F1 has come back to life after disposing of most electronic aids. For once, we should follow the example set by F1. Then maybe we'll have again seasons really worth to be remembered.
I`m in agreement with junking the electrics,yet again.
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No. That was the point of my question in the thread. I guess I was opening it up for discussion as to what others see as the "best season" However, I must admit I had not even entertained the thought, at the time, of the "best" season being for reasons of "BEAUTY"
Originally I would have said that my idea of the best season ever was heavily tied to the points earned(hence the reference to Lorenzo possibly doing it pointwise ), however I was fully aware that there are sometimes extraneous circumstances that do not make all "seem as it appears", eg. 2002 where realistically the 500's ( and any rider on one ) didn't have a chance, hence it must be seen as downgrading the overall WC that year.
Me. I'll put it this way ...... in my younger days we rode 500cc two stroke dirt bikes, Then Suzuki came out with a 370 for the open class ( which we all called "the 500's back then ...... possibly out of shear redneckedness ...... and said "PFFFT" to tiny 370's!) , because Decoster reckoned thats all you'd ever need ........ he was pretty right. Mind you I once got a 750 triple kwaka converted dirt tracker to race .......... sounds enticing( and I was scared of it at first but agreed to ride it ) .......... biggest pile of crap everI think I could get around faster on my 250 Yam. You were too busy backing off to find traction that it went nowhere, and then when you got to a corner ......... it wasn't "comfortable"
With respect to GP ...... are there many 990 era lap records still standing?
To be honest I'd open the class up to anything above say 750cc and then let the developers answer it with what they come up with as the best sized machine for running around GP tracks. It may even be interesting to let them change the capacity for each track though I supect that would be a tad expensive for modern day teams. They would however gain a huge understanding of the whole engine size issue.
Here's a question for you ..... what capacity bike could you get around say .... Estoril the fastest? Why 990/1000? ( if thats what you say ) .......
I think the word you are actually looking for is the most dominate season, not the best season. The best season would imply that the races have never been better in any other season. And was that the case? no. And your argument that it was the most dominate was disproven on page one. There is 5 more points for a win and three more races a season. Not to mention everyone of his competitors had problems except him. Nothing dominate or best about that. Quite lame actually. But I guess when you are old and senile trying to remember anything things from more than a couple hours can be difficult.
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And yet two of the possible best seasons of alltime ( ) have come from the 800 eraIts going to shock some of you guys when 1,000's are back. I tend to agree with burgess in that the premier size for a fast GP motorcycle engine is no longer 1,000cc.
those best seasons ( for a rider ) being :
1997 Doohan ( 500 )
2002 Rossi ( 990 but I don't feel this season warrants inclusion as it was against a large field on 500's )
2005 Rossi ( 990 )
2007 Stoner ( 800 )
2010 Lorenzo ( 800 )
It could be argued that there have been more "best seasons" on 800's than 990's.
hey dumby... "fans"of motorcycle racing judge a season by the racing not the points.
That position basically eliminates the concept of dominating a championship completely. If there is nothing dominant about winnning a season when the others struggle, and there is obviously nothing dominant about winning the title by a tiny margin when the runner up gets it almost as right as the winner, how can anyone ever have dominated any season.
It's not really that black and white. Both have to be considerd, the relative value of the facts and numbers over the unquantifiable elements is up to the person forming the opinion
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2007 Mr. Win it or bin it and the Duc. That was dominating. There was nothing any of his compititors could have done to stop him. There were no if, ands, buts, or what if's about that season. But it wasnt the best season.
I'm pretty sure the others had 'problems' that season didn't they. For all the complaining Rossi did there must have been something wrong, Hondas problems are extremely well documented too.
