No rider can finish in more than one position
Doohan spanks the lot of them, by miles the best season of the modern era. But if i'm not mistaken Ago had some pretty decent runs back in the day
Best season of all time .... ?
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No rider can finish in more than one position
Doohan spanks the lot of them, by miles the best season of the modern era. But if i'm not mistaken Ago had some pretty decent runs back in the day
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You were watching, perhaps, but we all know with that special perspective you are famous for viewing the world with...
Just how second rate? Like Ducati 07 second rate? Hahaha. You see what you just did? In your desperation to discredit the thread and discredit the comparison that Lorenzo has had one of the best seasons against your boy, a crime in deed, you must now go to Yamaha is the best?
Just to clarify for everyone your utter stupidity- essentially you are saying that Doohan's dominance was only because he was on the the best bike, which he developed and nearly killed him several times, and that Jorge's situation today deserves more kudos. Sounds like the .... you sprout about Rossi-Then Rossi's season last year and in 08 should also be considered greater than Mick's in 1997-using your logic........
Was the Repsol Honda the most dominant bike in Doohans day, yes or no? I see you try to assign an exaggerated "only" reasoning to attempt a point, that's a rather elementary debate technique. That is, if you were watching as you claim, then you haven't grown up much in the brain department. That crash you are talking about is called human error, just like Rossi this year. They are after all, human (though I know you don't believe it). Even the best bikes for their time don't rider themselves (that is with only one exception, the 07 Ducati...) BTW, Rossi's 08 season was pretty good. Thing is the runner up also got the most points ever from a rider to not get the title. So not exactly a rout, that is, if that's your logic for "best season ever". Oh, and about the tire advantages, yes, I already know you think it didn't exist. That of course goes against generally accepted GP knowledge (something you are use to).
You are so desperate to discredit Lorenzo's season being considered among the best, that as usual, you get stuck on your own narrow focus. Again, for the 4-5th time, the question posed is can Lorenzo's numbers and circumstance be consider among the best? The answer is yes. Why, because when you make a more profound analysis (something you painfully cannot do) then you find that when you adjust comparisons among other great seasons, Lorenzo's 2010 holds its own, is close, is near enough that it can be among the best. But no, this cannot be true in your eyes, because that would mean somebody actually beat your boy, straight up, on his own bike. Get over it.
^^^ well I see people still need to prove that someone else's opinion is wrong and throw stats in for justifcation.
Doohan was awesome....but Rossi getting 69.5% of his possible points for a career is amazing!! I wish Doohan and Rossi had raced each other.
Doohan was awesome....but Rossi getting 69.5% of his possible points for a career is amazing!! I wish Doohan and Rossi had raced each other.
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^^^ well I see people still need to prove that someone else's opinion is wrong and throw stats in for justifcation.
Doohan was awesome....but Rossi getting 69.5% of his possible points for a career is amazing!! I wish Doohan and Rossi had raced each other.
You are obviously talking about Talps & yourself, right? Because as you can understand (maybe not from your implication) that I'm saying, either opinions are valid (except Talps, and and to a lessor degree, you, are saying Lorenzo's is not). Its the second time you've said peeps throwing in numbers to make say they are right, so you throw in a few of your own for good measure....^^^
This is starting to get circular again. Yes, valentino rossi does have the best overall record as is fairly widely known, and has had a large number of great seasons, and the statistic of the % of points available to him which he has scored is a telling one ( I don't personally see that the % of total points has much to do with the price of fish). However other riders can have good seasons even against valentino and 3 have now done so, 2 of them statistically comparable with some of the best seasons of great riders in the past.
I actually think jorge was heading for a season of such greatness as to be close to indisputably the greatest, when he basically finished first or second in every race over a prolonged period, but his dominance for whatever reason has subsided late in the season, and perhaps not even due to any lack on his behalf if engine durability has constrained him.
I actually think jorge was heading for a season of such greatness as to be close to indisputably the greatest, when he basically finished first or second in every race over a prolonged period, but his dominance for whatever reason has subsided late in the season, and perhaps not even due to any lack on his behalf if engine durability has constrained him.
You are obviously talking about Talps & yourself, right? Because as you can understand (maybe not from your implication) that I'm saying, either opinions are valid (except Talps, and and to a lessor degree, you, are saying Lorenzo's is not). Its the second time you've said peeps throwing in numbers to make say they are right, so you throw in a few of your own for good measure....^^^Logic much? No.
I gave my opinion without using stats to beat someone else down on their "wrong opinion" already.....now I am just along for the ride and not slamming my opinion into someone else who has a different view.
I did the silly math and percentanages for others to use in the Facts vs Opinion battle.....and more importantly to add some new interesting facts on how these top riders stack up over the years.
I will say it again.....I don't think Lorenzo's (not even finished season) is the best ever. It could be for a bunch of reasons, but the bottom line is it is my opinion based on how I fell so facts and stats from anyone else don't matter.
You asked me about what Rossi seasons were the best and I told you.....but I really feel Rainey's 92 title season and Hayden's 06 title year were the best. They both had to come back from behind and win it in the last round. Rainey worked through injuries to stay in the hunt when it looke dlike doohan would walk away with the title, and Hayden, who has never been a title favorite, kept a level head and raced hard all season long. The tons of wins/points in a season is impressive, but in my opinion, they do not make the best seasons ever for me.
The best season all time for me in all motorcycle racing.....2002 WSBK Edwards running down Bayliss. Spies in 2009 WSBK is a close second.....and both of those have lots of wins and points, but the big thing for me is it was not a runaway title and it when down to the last race.
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^^^ well I see people still need to prove that someone else's opinion is wrong and throw stats in for justifcation.
Doohan was awesome....but Rossi getting 69.5% of his possible points for a career is amazing!! I wish Doohan and Rossi had raced each other.
Yes Doohan has been a die hard, even i didn't follow motogp at that moment, but knowing of his crashes and records tell it all.
I also rate the best season, based on the excitiment of it and not the amount of the points of it's winner.
Actually as Talpa said, that Doohan has won 12 gp's in 15 rounds, i knew it had to be him, but as Tom said, maybe Ago or someothers have done even a better job before. So maybe a 4th person is needed to bring us that answer.
There has never been a more valid reason to use the term
Pot-----Kettle
Not at all, Merely discrediting your rubbish assessment that Mick Doohan only dominated because of his superior machine, as you were using Journo's for your reference because you didn't know the sport existed until an American won the title, I'm willing to bet you couldn't have pointed out the countries where the races took place on a map before 2006, such is the extent of your 'Head up own arse' syndrome.
I also pointed out that many a Journo has and will continue to express the opinion that the Fiat Yamaha is the superior bike on the grid, and has been since 2008, the fact that this directly throws .... on your 'superior bike' in Doohan's case is when you start bringing up the Rossi Bopper excrement, instead of intelligently stating that Jorge has also been on a superior bike this year, and yes he has beaten Rossi on his own bike this year.
An intelligent person would also bring up the fact that Rossi has had a Busted Shoulder and a Compound fracture of the right tibia, requiring extensive orthopedic surgery and a metal pin inserted. The latter resulting in Rossi missing 4 complete rounds of the championship, then facing three rounds prematurely whilst still on crutches. This is not opinion this is fact, yes Jorge has won the 2010 title and beaten Rossi with his own bike, but only a ....... bigot like yourself would believe that the status quo of the aliens would be the same had Rossi remained fully fit.
Yes the NSR500 was the dominant bike in Doohans day however, in direct contrast to today, something you would know nothing about but continue to enlighten us on your inept nature, the NSR 500 was ridden by 12 of the entrants in the 500cc world championship in 1997, the top 5 finishers in the title race that year were
- Mick Doohan
- Tadi Okada
- Nobi aoki
- Alex Crivelle
- Taku Aoki
Guess what they were all riding, its not hard now.......your mate Alberto was even on one....oh and those top four spots also had 'Repsol' on the side.....Guess which rider, and there's only one, rode with a thumb operated rear brake because of a mangled right leg? It's not hard now......Adding to this, there's only one man who tamed the 'screeamer' version of that powerplant, now even one such as you has enough brain power to imagine the volatile yet amazing combination of 500cc 'Two stroke' and 'Screamer'.......can you guess who it was?
I also never brought up anything about the non-humanness of the riders....?
No petulant one, the Question was, IS JORGE's SEASON THE BEST OF ALL TIME......????? Not among the best, and no one here has answered 'yes' to the question I posed 'Does anybody really think that Jorge's season this year is the best of all time??? Twist and turn all you like, the hole's so deep you'll need the Chilean Miner extraction team soon!
Although I don't even consider it among the best anyway, it is convenient for you to play the Rossi Bopper card to dance around the fact that another rider has beaten Rossi to a title, such is you hatred for the Man and his fans. This overwhelming hatred has now consumed your way of thinking so much that you have been know to side with the thread's author (which in itself is hilarious), and as I've pointed out, it doesn't matter who beats Rossi as long as someone does, and if Rossi wins next year you will be saying "Oh yeah, but Jorge flogged him last year-it was one of the best season's ever!" Just like that other year, oh yeah 2007. For this is all your argument is, you have supplied no reasonable point against the facts I've presented, and continued to pull out the 'Bopper' card. As I said Broken Record........time for a new strategy messiah. Your worse than an addict, abandoning all reason (not that you ever had much) to have a go at Rossi and his fans......
Personally I believe that, In the modern era, Mick Doohan's in 1997 was indisputably the Best season of complete Domination, followed by Rossi's 2002-2005 and Stoner's 2007. The most entertaining season however, goes to 2006, with 2001 and 2004 close behind.
Jorge's had a great season, and I'm not discrediting it at all, but to imply that it is 'The Best' of all time is discrediting other far better performance's.......
Last but not least.................. http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif
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When I started this I was leaning towards thinking it was possibly the best season ever, because of the quality of the riders involved.
But its so hard to quantify that.
I look at Doohans 1987 WC as the most dominant. Even going into it thegeneral thinking was " can Doohan win every single race this season?" But ........ he did not have the competition that Lorenzo has had, by any means.
This was my main question, hence why I used the word "best" and not "most dominant".
Also its been a pretty good season competition wise, lots of drama.
Its been an "insidiuos" season,, it kinda crept up out of nowhere to begin with. It hasn't been a season where just about everyone thought he would take it out even up to say round 10 or later.
I disagree with those attempting to live with the delusion that Rossi's leg injury was more of a "lottery draw", rather than an event that was a reflection of the effort Rossi was exerting to keep up with Lorenzo.
Talk of how "dominant" a season it has been, just show how much folk have forgotten 1997. But 1997 did not have the "other riders" that 2010 has. Thats what I was trying to get some "input" on ........... not sure its really been braced well yet.
But its so hard to quantify that.
I look at Doohans 1987 WC as the most dominant. Even going into it thegeneral thinking was " can Doohan win every single race this season?" But ........ he did not have the competition that Lorenzo has had, by any means.
This was my main question, hence why I used the word "best" and not "most dominant".
Also its been a pretty good season competition wise, lots of drama.
Its been an "insidiuos" season,, it kinda crept up out of nowhere to begin with. It hasn't been a season where just about everyone thought he would take it out even up to say round 10 or later.
I disagree with those attempting to live with the delusion that Rossi's leg injury was more of a "lottery draw", rather than an event that was a reflection of the effort Rossi was exerting to keep up with Lorenzo.
Talk of how "dominant" a season it has been, just show how much folk have forgotten 1997. But 1997 did not have the "other riders" that 2010 has. Thats what I was trying to get some "input" on ........... not sure its really been braced well yet.
I agree with the first 3 points ( in particular if stoner in 2008 had the most points of any runner-up this may reflect that stoner was also much better than the riders who finished behind him which makes him a strong competitor rather than detracting from rossi's championship) but would like you to be internally consistent and apply the first two to the 2007 season; I will agree in advance with the obvious rejoinder that there have been 3 championships from other riders since then.
I agree that jorge's season is not the greatest as I have said previously but I don't think you can say others have been far better.
and what WC did doohan win in 1987 that was even better than his 1997 season??? do tell!!!
I have already mentioned Stoner's 07 efforts a number of times in this thread, which, coming from me is certainly a testament to his performance that year and since you love to bring it up in almost every thread no matter how irrelevant, I will humor you some more
The point I was making to the Mexican was that Mick Doohan was on the same bike and tyres as his 4 closest competitors in 1997, albeit with a different engine config, which certainly could be considered to be more difficult to handle especially with a thumb rear brake! So the superior Machinery argument is completely redundant in Mick's case.
Stoner's chief competition in 2007 was on vastly different tyres and equipment. Of course Stoner rode incredibly well that year, but has certainly failed ever since, once his chief rivals obtained the same rubber, to show anywhere near the consistent dominance displayed in 2007. Whereas Mick went on to spank them again in 1998, and crucially had spanked them prior to 1997, until his career ending injuries in 1999. Thus giving way to the already popular theories on Stoner's overwhelming success in 2007 IMO.
Also IMO it is not unreasonable to say that Mick Doohan's 1997 season was far better than Jorge's this year, I believe you can also say that Rossi's 2005 season was far more dominant than Jorge's this year, and that his 2001 season was greater (and before you comment I suggest you watch PI 2001 again first!) And yes theories aside, Casey's season in 2007 it can also be said-was far more dominant than Jorge's this year.
At many rounds this year, Jorge hasn't even been in the hunt for the lead of the race, which can't be said for the performance's in prior season's above. His points lead has been amassed by brilliant consistency and no crashes- but doesn't even come close to the pure Dominance of Mick Doohan in 1997.
....
I have already mentioned Stoner's 07 efforts a number of times in this thread, which, coming from me is certainly a testament to his performance that year and since you love to bring it up in almost every thread no matter how irrelevant, I will humor you some more
The point I was making to the Mexican was that Mick Doohan was on the same bike and tyres as his 4 closest competitors in 1997, albeit with a different engine config, which certainly could be considered to be more difficult to handle especially with a thumb rear brake! So the superior Machinery argument is completely redundant in Mick's case.
Stoner's chief competition in 2007 was on vastly different tyres and equipment. Of course Stoner rode incredibly well that year, but has certainly failed ever since, once his chief rivals obtained the same rubber, to show anywhere near the consistent dominance displayed in 2007. Whereas Mick went on to spank them again in 1998, and crucially had spanked them prior to 1997, until his career ending injuries in 1999. Thus giving way to the already popular theories on Stoner's overwhelming success in 2007 IMO.
Also IMO it is not unreasonable to say that Mick Doohan's 1997 season was far better than Jorge's this year, I believe you can also say that Rossi's 2005 season was far more dominant than Jorge's this year, and that his 2001 season was greater (and before you comment I suggest you watch PI 2001 again first!) And yes theories aside, Casey's season in 2007 it can also be said-was far more dominant than Jorge's this year.
At many rounds this year, Jorge hasn't even been in the hunt for the lead of the race, which can't be said for the performance's in prior season's above. His points lead has been amassed by brilliant consistency and no crashes- but doesn't even come close to the pure Dominance of Mick Doohan in 1997.
My dispute was with "far better" , not with better.
I accept that you have acknowledged stoner's 2007 season more of late, and my argument is perhaps more with the long-term dispute on here about that season. I actually mainly enjoy your contributions to the forum now that they are no longer almost exclusively diatribes against casey stoner. I did find it interesting to see you argue that doohan had dominated competitors on the same bike, and that mick was the only rider to master a screamer engined bike, since both are also true of casey. I don't defer to anyone in terms of being a fan of mick doohan either, see my favourite riders list.
I have not made any claims about stoner's overall status in the sport and will not do so until he wins another championship despite his continuing accumulation of wins. He does not of course stand comparison at this stage with the likes of spencer, sheene, roberts etc. At the moment he has surpassed wayne gardner and is approaching kevin schwantz, both of whom were also winners of only one championship, and that is still rather good
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The machinery argument is far from redundant. Doohan, Okada and Criville were in the 3 man Repsol factory team. Nobuatsu Aoki was riding a good satellite bike, in first season in the 500s, while his brother, Takumi, was riding the V-twin bike (which explains why there was such a huge gap back to 5th place). The fact that a V-twin could finish ahead of the factory efforts from Suzuki and Yamaha should also give some indication of the competition at the time. 1997 was a Repsol cup, pure and simple. Doohan only had to beat Okada and Crville--and Criville missed 5 races in the middle of the season, following a huge crash at Assen.
I'm not sure why you make such a big deal out of the thumb-operated rear brake, either; Doohan and Burgess never did. Criville used the same system (I think he would've copied the way Mick wiped his arse with toilet paper if he thought it would help), and liked it. Other riders have used it over the years. On the Dorna-feed commentary this year they mentioned that some current riders have used/or are using it too, although they didn't name them.
I would say the 2007 championship was more difficult for Stoner to win, than the 1997 title was for Doohan. What they achieved in the years before or after those titles is irrelevant in a discussion about a "best season".
Satistically, Lorenzo could end up with the best season of all time. But, apart from his win in Brno, since the summer break he hasn't been anywhere near as dominant as the first half of the season. It's an impressive championship on so many levels, but not, I think, the best of all time.
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and what WC did doohan win in 1987 that was even better than his 1997 season??? do tell!!!
Whoops ...typo..... but you got it right ..... 1997
Yeah I remember the V-twin being quite nimble but ultimately blown by the other config's
It's more the combination of the mangled leg (which didn't really come right again during the reminder of his career) and thumb brake which I'm alluding to.
Can't say I agree here
The pre/Post years were more in relation to Mickm's redundant superior machinery debate. Not a best of all season,
Agreed completely, which is why I believe that regardless of similar attributes that affect all championships, Doohan's in 1997 was the most dominant we've seen in the modern era.
The Best of all time requires a much broader look at all factors.........
It's more the combination of the mangled leg (which didn't really come right again during the reminder of his career) and thumb brake which I'm alluding to.
Can't say I agree here
The pre/Post years were more in relation to Mickm's redundant superior machinery debate. Not a best of all season,
Agreed completely, which is why I believe that regardless of similar attributes that affect all championships, Doohan's in 1997 was the most dominant we've seen in the modern era.
The Best of all time requires a much broader look at all factors.........
Rossi injured along with dani(with beautiful timing might i add).....and stoner with front end issues most of the season. I'd say while it was a great season for him, its pretty much been one of the easiest you will see. Who else was the closest competition? Hayden/dovi?
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/pollresult.html?poll_id=57338&wv=1
Sigh.....
I agree with this. Lorenzo rode a great season and with the timing of the Rossi injuries in the first half of the season (where Lorenzo racked up his wins/points cushion) and Pedrosa's injury in the end (once he and Honda could use the power/reliability advantage) Lorenzo could ride safe and still get nice race finishes, now add with Stoner stuggling most rounds to either stay on the bike or get to a podium spot.......Lorenzo really had little pressure. He still had to ride very well and ride smart to get the title and all these points (and he might get the season record for points). Lorenzo was his own competition for the season....and he did very well and racing himself and not going over the limits.
It reminds me of the season Wilt Chamberlain averaged over 50 points/25 rebounds per game and scored 100 points in one of those games....it is an amazing stat and we will probably never see that again, but he had no real competiton but himself to push on and rack up the points every evening.
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Is that not what makes any superstar, the fact that they outclass the competition. Say what you will about Wilt, even in the waning years of his career, the big man still averaged 18-19 rebounds a game against some pretty well known players in NBA history. There are plenty of 7'1" inch players who have never come close to averaging half of what Wilt did. He wasnt just tall, he was a physical freak of athletic mobility and strength that made his height that much tougher to deal with.
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In what sense? It took a few races in the 93 season for Mick to adjust his riding style and get back to full fitness. There was talk that Lawson might come out of retirement and replace him for a few races, but after a very close second behind Schwantz in Austria, that talk dried up quickly. His leg was never an issue for the rest of his career. Sure, no doubt, he would've preferred an ankle joint that wasn't fused, but it didn't hinder his racing. His determiniation to fight back from such an horrific injury in 1992 says everything about his competitive drive and will to win, but has nothing to do with the 1997 championship.
A Repsol Honda won every race in 1997. A Malboro Ducati won 11 out of 18 in 2007. I think it's pretty clear which was the more difficult championship to win.
It was indeed; most dominant since the days of Agostini--and for much the same reasons; he only had to beat his team mates.
