Assen - 2022

Segfault · Jun 27, 2022

The principles behind penalizing in MotoGP are nonsense. Basically, if I pickpocket someone and get $20 then my punishment depends on victim? If this was the victims last money and his life is severely impacted then I will be punished, but if this was a millionaire then I can go? The whole idea of penalizing is to teach the offender not to do it. In MotoGP we want a system where breaking rules is fine as long as the outcome is not too bad? How could a rider know what the outcome will be?
As a rule there is no intent to crash a fellow rider. (This villain Rossi is gone who attacked the other rider deliberately, it was a case for DA and criminal justice system.) If there is no intent what do you punish for? This is racing, riders must try and pass others. That's the whole idea of racing. If some rider is too optimistic and keeps creating mess, endangering other riders then there should be riders court. Everybody sits down and the riders meeting issues a warning or eliminates this individual for good if repeated warnings didn't work. But single offenses should not be punished, .... happens in racing.

mylexicon · Jun 27, 2022

Post-race narrative control and revisionism is strong after Assen

Bagnaia: I wasn't on the limit like Aleix

Whether or not Pecco is giving an accurate representation of events is not clear, but it's interesting how narrative control has become somewhat common place for the teams and riders. Seems like things were more opaque in previous eras, but maybe I'm misremembering.

mylexicon · Jun 27, 2022

Mav's PR team getting to work:

Vinales ready to assist Aleix, "Our dream is to make Aprilia world champion"

Segfault · Jun 27, 2022

People are people, they do not change. There is always some commenting and justifying and whatnot going on. Good for Dorna business, too. Any attention is good, even this new whining Miller, something to fill news pages with. That said, my respect for Miller is on decline. Methinks what Roger Federer said when asked about match-deciding bad line call is right. He said if you play strong then your result won't be depending on one line call. So, Miller, if you don't like guys coming from behind and bouncing into you, ride faster.

Tommo46 · Jun 27, 2022

Barbedwirebikerr said:
Smells a bit like match fixing, tightening the championship standings.

May not matter, jack has proven twice now that a long lap is hardly a penalty to these guys.

It certainly looks that way! Maybe also to excite the fans to sell the tickets and pump more revenue (a bit like the F1 antics!)

It’s a shame but money talks I suppose

Tommo46 · Jun 27, 2022

mylexicon said:
Weirder still that Mir and Oliveira collided on the grid. Then Mir and Marini collided at the start. No penalties. I guess no one went down, and no one had their race ruined, but it was an awkward and dangerous 2 minutes for Mir.

By the way Luca Marini looked on tv I’m not entirely sure if his race was ruined after all. He didn’t look very happy and stormed out of the back of his garage after the race. Maybe some slight damage or even riding with emotion. Who knows.

Mir’s boot didn’t half take a blow though!

PRS717 · Jun 27, 2022

Off topic but what the heck. I tip my cap to Dominique Aegerter who is pulling double duty in WSSP and MotoE and pretty much dominating both series.

Gaz · Jun 28, 2022

Segfault said:
People are people, they do not change. There is always some commenting and justifying and whatnot going on. Good for Dorna business, too. Any attention is good, even this new whining Miller, something to fill news pages with. That said, my respect for Miller is on decline. Methinks what Roger Federer said when asked about match-deciding bad line call is right. He said if you play strong then your result won't be depending on one line call. So, Miller, if you don't like guys coming from behind and bouncing into you, ride faster.

Not sure which article you read but if it was the same as the one I did, interpretations are everything.

If you refer to the comment about Binder hitting him I read it that he had no real issues with Binder as such but rather that he had NFI Aleix was there to take advantage of both.

Given that Miller lost places last year a few times late by being used as another rider's berm, .... I can see frustration at losing places by being bumped out.

It is what it is but on the highlighted, could the same not apply to any rider bumped out of the way by a falling or more brutal rider - if caught, the issue is theirs for not riding fast enough?

Admits bias here

Tommo46 · Jun 28, 2022

PRS717 said:
Off topic but what the heck. I tip my cap to Dominique Aegerter who is pulling double duty in WSSP and MotoE and pretty much dominating both series.

What dedication the man has, rides in two championships and I’m pretty sure he competes in some sort of MX championship too (correct me if I’m wrong)

He’s on course to win both titles and personally think he deserves a WSBK shot next year.

I met him when I went to the Estoril round and he was jogging up and down the paddock in the evening after the practices. He’s one underrated athlete

misfit · Jun 28, 2022

mylexicon said:
Post-race narrative control and revisionism is strong after Assen

Bagnaia: I wasn't on the limit like Aleix

Whether or not Pecco is giving an accurate representation of events is not clear, but it's interesting how narrative control has become somewhat common place for the teams and riders. Seems like things were more opaque in previous eras, but maybe I'm misremembering.

I thought Bagnaia's comments quite reasonable. I've never taken to claims about 'if only'. We really don't know since we all didn't expect the incident with FQ.

Segfault · Jun 28, 2022

This penal system forced on MotoGP is not suitable for this sport.
The last case. Fabio saw a space left by Aleix and decided there is a chance to attempt pass. Fabio has great deal of feeling for front end and he decided to take it to the limit. At this point the braking calculations in his brain were also relative to Aleix position on track, not only the corner they both were about to turn. The problem was Aleix had more corner speed than Fabio expected and this affected Fabio's braking. In other words, Aleix kind of sucked Fabio into braking error with his higher-than-expected corner speed. I don't know how many can understand this, I realize my ability to express myself is not that great. Those who have done some racing may understand it better. Anyhow, this was sort of forced error which caught out even an experienced rider as Fabio certainly is. It is extremely unlikely Fabio lets something like this to happen to him ever again.
Penalizing Fabio for this is total overpolicing and an attempt to micromanage the sport. It is just plain wrong. Can't emphasize it strong enough. WRONG!!!

mylexicon · Jun 28, 2022

misfit said:
I thought Bagnaia's comments quite reasonable. I've never taken to claims about 'if only'. We really don't know since we all didn't expect the incident with FQ.

Perhaps the remarks were reasonable and true. I just thought it was interesting that the armchair pundits began speculating about Aliex's possible finishing position, and a Ducati rider immediately joins in the discussion with "I wasn't even riding hard". Maybe it's Ducati PR or maybe it's just a journalist who is aware of the speculation and wants Bagnaia's thoughts. No idea.

I find the situation somewhat interesting because it seems the paddock no longer allows the on-track events to stand for themselves. The press and the forums once tried to interpret events and create general rules and narratives to further our understanding of the sport. From time to time information would leak out that would change our opinions or understanding.

Now an event takes place, and the paddock tells people what to think. Is this merely a side-effect of the social media news cycle? or is this a deliberate intrusion into the work of the commentariat?

Bern1 · Jun 28, 2022

Yes, everybody is so tied in to social media in all forms, including this forum.

It used to be a lot went unsaid. Today almost nothing goes unsaid, even stuff that shouldn’t be said.

Everybody can broadcast their point of view from the rooftops and be heard. Sometimes that’s not such a good thing imo, though it does provide some merriment from time to time.

mylexicon · Jun 28, 2022

Bradl thoughts regarding Honda's lack of pace

It's in German so google translate isn't ideal, but I know enough to interpret his final and most critical remark.

The swingarm and chassis are the main items HRC must develop, but (according to Bradl) they don't know what direction to go so they will need to try many updates and get them sorted.

Well, that's encouraging. Confirms what other riders have been saying about losing time in the corners, and it confirms the eye test, as well. Perhaps HRC really are searching for a direction, but gotta take that remark with a grain of salt since it's coming from a test rider so everything is solved with more testing.

Anyway, maybe propaghandi can provide more analysis.

PRS717 · Jun 28, 2022

mylexicon said:
Perhaps the remarks were reasonable and true. I just thought it was interesting that the armchair pundits began speculating about Aliex's possible finishing position, and a Ducati rider immediately joins in the discussion with "I wasn't even riding hard". Maybe it's Ducati PR or maybe it's just a journalist who is aware of the speculation and wants Bagnaia's thoughts. No idea.

I find the situation somewhat interesting because it seems the paddock no longer allows the on-track events to stand for themselves. The press and the forums once tried to interpret events and create general rules and narratives to further our understanding of the sport. From time to time information would leak out that would change our opinions or understanding.

Now an event takes place, and the paddock tells people what to think. Is this merely a side-effect of the social media news cycle? or is this a deliberate intrusion into the work of the commentariat?

Pecco's amazing performance under extreme pressure from MM last year...at Aragon, I believe.... notwithstanding, Pecco has folded under some pressure in the past. Aleix has folded under pressure many times it feels like to me. Had Quats not taken Aleix to the gravel and it was a 2-way shoot out, I feel either Pecco or Aleix could have wilted under the pressure.................or not. A 3-way battle would have been glorious. Darn shame.

Gaz · Jun 28, 2022

Segfault said:
This penal system forced on MotoGP is not suitable for this sport.
The last case. Fabio saw a space left by Aleix and decided there is a chance to attempt pass. Fabio has great deal of feeling for front end and he decided to take it to the limit. At this point the braking calculations in his brain were also relative to Aleix position on track, not only the corner they both were about to turn. The problem was Aleix had more corner speed than Fabio expected and this affected Fabio's braking. In other words, Aleix kind of sucked Fabio into braking error with his higher-than-expected corner speed. I don't know how many can understand this, I realize my ability to express myself is not that great. Those who have done some racing may understand it better. Anyhow, this was sort of forced error which caught out even an experienced rider as Fabio certainly is. It is extremely unlikely Fabio lets something like this to happen to him ever again.
Penalizing Fabio for this is total overpolicing and an attempt to micromanage the sport. It is just plain wrong. Can't emphasize it strong enough. WRONG!!!

Kind of agree but also kind of not.

IMO only, but that incident with Quartaro was not worthy of a penalty and as has been suggested elsewhere, my conspiracy mind comes back to the need to ensure viewers and a close(er) title race does that.

But I do agree that penalties need to apply for repeated offences considered dangerous, negligent or unsportsmanlike when passing another rider or with general on-track behaviours. That said, the critical aspect to any penalty system is for it to be consistent in application and that means race to race within a season, as year to year interpretations may change as may circumstances but race to race in a season must be consistent and we have not seen that for some time.

IMO only but for mine, Quartararo performed a bigger penalty deserving issue last year (was it last year?) when his leathers split and he then threw his chest protector to the ground. Black flag should have been pulled for the leather failure as a minimum but at that time the championship situation worked to his favour

mylexicon · Jun 29, 2022

Segfault said:
This penal system forced on MotoGP is not suitable for this sport.
The last case. Fabio saw a space left by Aleix and decided there is a chance to attempt pass. Fabio has great deal of feeling for front end and he decided to take it to the limit. At this point the braking calculations in his brain were also relative to Aleix position on track, not only the corner they both were about to turn. The problem was Aleix had more corner speed than Fabio expected and this affected Fabio's braking. In other words, Aleix kind of sucked Fabio into braking error with his higher-than-expected corner speed. I don't know how many can understand this, I realize my ability to express myself is not that great. Those who have done some racing may understand it better. Anyhow, this was sort of forced error which caught out even an experienced rider as Fabio certainly is. It is extremely unlikely Fabio lets something like this to happen to him ever again.
Penalizing Fabio for this is total overpolicing and an attempt to micromanage the sport. It is just plain wrong. Can't emphasize it strong enough. WRONG!!!

It's a complicated situation. Anytime a rider spoils another riders race, qualifying, or whatever they introduce the possibility of steward action. Quartararo knocked Espargaro into the gravel. The situation doesn't represent injustice to me.

On the other hand, the punishment does look disproportionate in the larger context. Aleix finished 4th and Quartararo lost 13 points to a championship rival. Fate has already balanced the scales of justice it seems, or has it? Did Aleix score 13 points because Quartararo's move was particularly skillful, despite his mistake? or did Aleix score points because his skill and experience allowed him to keep the Aprilia upright? If it's the latter, then a penalty does seem warranted, regardless of Aleix's relative points gain.

Also, Quartararo did benefit in some measure from his crash because he spoiled the race result of the other competitor currently vying for the championship. The incentive to make hard passes on a close rival, knowing that you may both go down, is something the stewards are compelled to remedy regardless of circumstance.

Anyway, I'm not taking a position regarding Quartararo's penalty because it could go either way, and I think the sport loses something, if we are all sitting around arguing about penalties, rather than reveling in the race. Some discussion is inevitable, but hopefully the press, riders, and teams will not poison their own well.

PRS717 · Jun 29, 2022

mylexicon said:
It's a complicated situation. Anytime a rider spoils another riders race, qualifying, or whatever they introduce the possibility of steward action. Quartararo knocked Espargaro into the gravel. The situation doesn't represent injustice to me.

On the other hand, the punishment does look disproportionate in the larger context. Aleix finished 4th and Quartararo lost 13 points to a championship rival. Fate has already balanced the scales of justice it seems, or has it? Did Aleix score 13 points because Quartararo's move was particularly skillful, despite his mistake? or did Aleix score points because his skill and experience allowed him to keep the Aprilia upright? If it's the latter, then a penalty does seem warranted, regardless of Aleix's relative points gain.

Also, Quartararo did benefit in some measure from his crash because he spoiled the race result of the other competitor currently vying for the championship. The incentive to make hard passes on a close rival, knowing that you may both go down, is something the stewards are compelled to remedy regardless of circumstance.

Anyway, I'm not taking a position regarding Quartararo's penalty because it could go either way, and I think the sport loses something, if we are all sitting around arguing about penalties, rather than reveling in the race. Some discussion is inevitable, but hopefully the press, riders, and teams will not poison their own well.

Seems like a lot of subjectivity in this. When Pecco torpedoes Martin and Taka does the same and both get nothing, I call BS on Quats penalty. The not-so-veiled appearance of impropriety and / or inconsistency from the stewards which, coincidentally tightens the championship, is a bit disconcerting.

mylexicon · Jun 29, 2022

PRS717 said:
Seems like a lot of subjectivity in this. When Pecco torpedoes Martin and Taka does the same and both get nothing, I call BS on Quats penalty. The not-so-veiled appearance of impropriety and / or inconsistency from the stewards which, coincidentally tightens the championship, is a bit disconcerting.

It will always be subjective. The only objective way to apply penalties is if one rider is clearly at fault, and a penalty is incurred.

Unfortunately, the simplicity of that arrangement could discourage overtaking. Stewardship becomes subjective, political, and often arcane. It can't be fixed. At best the stewards can hope to contain the madness or maybe create a system whereby the riders affirm their own punishment. For instance, a rider hits someone and they choose between a) start from the back of the grid b) long lap penalty on first lap c) surrender 5 championship points d) accept 2 steward points (5 would trigger being excluded from a round)

There are many different ways to improve things, but none of them will truly fix anything. It will just settle people's nerves

Segfault · Jun 29, 2022

My point was punishing for unintentional events in racing is fundamentally wrong. This is racing, many young men racing closely together, everybody wants to go faster. Accidents do happen, people make mistakes, often the fraction of a second is not enough to make a correct decision.
Therefore I recite, this penal system is not suitable for racing. For instance, the points system is much better. Offender gets points on his license and when the limit is exceeded a penalty is handed out. Points would be awarded according to seriousness of event. But no single accident should result in a penalty as it is now.

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