800cc vs 990cc

http://www.crash.net/motogp/News/145455/1/...s_990_best.html

.... even on inferior tires

fair enough
but if the 990's were still here 3 years later plus any developments that would have involved and with tyre development in that time aswell the top speed would be way higher than that.

and look who broke the record the rider of average weight.ffs lol

i'd like to think what would a 990 do NOW in 2009 if they were still here being developed it would be a lot higher than 334.4km/h (207/8mph

No doubt. But it is what it is - and at least they're still matching and beating the old records even though they are down 190cc

Its not the top speed which people dont like about the 800cc machines. It's the fact that decent racing has become increasingly scarce since their introduction.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snurfer @ Apr 17 2009, 06:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No doubt. But it is what it is - and at least they're still matching and beating the old records even though they are down 190cc

How much money has been flushed down the toilet unnecessarily in an attempt to make 800cc bikes go as fast as 990s?

How many teams, manufacturers, and bikes have been lost over the last 2 years?

The 800s are not loathsome machines, but they have come to symbolize the stupidity of the FIM, Dorna, the MSMA, and the IRTA. How could they resolve to ruin the sport b/c they wanted a more challenging formula for the engineers?

In my mind's eye I can see the expressionless faces of the technocrats as they gleefully signed GP's demise. Anyone who has ever enjoyed the sport for its visceral thrills has suffered needlessly. Anyone who appreciates the skill required to tame a two wheeled beast has been shown to the exit.

Disgusting.

Motorcycling is pleasurable because it is difficult. From the moment a bike is stood upright, the forces of nature are conspiring to make the bike lie flat on the pavement. Balancing the forces of nature and the forces of the machine has always been the responsibility of the rider. Such meaningful work was not meant for sensors and electronic gadgets.

Would you allow a robot to deliver Sunday's sermon?!

Fighting technological innovation is a fools errand, but protecting formulas that place emphasis on the rider is a noble struggle.

Forever 990cc w/ 24 liters

So now what 600cc four strokes? Oh wait they are already going to do that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 17 2009, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fighting technological innovation is a fools errand, but protecting formulas that place emphasis on the rider is a noble struggle.

I definately agree with this - I'm all for the removal of TC and letting the riders' talent really shine. And I have only recently come to understand that there are gyro's in the bikes... which I think is lame.

I'm just trying to make the point that its 800cc now and 'it is what it is' ... you can't go back to the past but only move forward... they aren't going to revert to 990. And the fact that the 800's are just as fast now in a straight line... and faster around a corner than the 990's shows IMO that it is a better racing machine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pigeon @ Apr 17 2009, 09:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and look who broke the record the rider of average weight.ffs lol


Two Duc's and Two Yam's did as well:

"Mika Kallio's Pramac Ducati was second in qualifying with 338.0km/h, followed by Ducati Marlboro's Casey Stoner (337.2km/h) and Jorge Lorenzo's Yamaha (337.0km/h). Team-mate Valentino Rossi was ranked fifth with 334.2km/h."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 17 2009, 11:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How much money has been flushed down the toilet unnecessarily in an attempt to make 800cc bikes go as fast as 990s?

How many teams, manufacturers, and bikes have been lost over the last 2 years?

The 800s are not loathsome machines, but they have come to symbolize the stupidity of the FIM, Dorna, the MSMA, and the IRTA. How could they resolve to ruin the sport b/c they wanted a more challenging formula for the engineers?

In my mind's eye I can see the expressionless faces of the technocrats as they gleefully signed GP's demise. Anyone who has ever enjoyed the sport for its visceral thrills has suffered needlessly. Anyone who appreciates the skill required to tame a two wheeled beast has been shown to the exit.

Disgusting.

Motorcycling is pleasurable because it is difficult. From the moment a bike is stood upright, the forces of nature are conspiring to make the bike lie flat on the pavement. Balancing the forces of nature and the forces of the machine has always been the responsibility of the rider. Such meaningful work was not meant for sensors and electronic gadgets.

Would you allow a robot to deliver Sunday's sermon?!

Fighting technological innovation is a fools errand, but protecting formulas that place emphasis on the rider is a noble struggle.

Forever 990cc w/ 24 liters

VERY well said my friend, but I must betray my disagreement; being as I find my interests enraptured within the whimsical technological intricacies of engineering pursuits over the overt flamboyance of motorsport - just as I prefer the delicate brilliance of cornering over burnoutZ and wheelieZ - it is a matter of relative indifference to me that the racing does not display quite the same brutally crude beauty of years past. However, I must admit, for I am both human and male: 'close' racing - resulting in swapped paint, smoking tires and boiling blood - carve a considerably more prominent evil sneer into the corners of my mouth. I love most of all to see - prancing gleefully along with rider skill - the triumph of intellect, innovation, engineering and technology over the stagnant evolution of where we have already been. 990 is the past, smaller displacement/ higher-tech is the future. Oh, and I am quite certain that the 'gyros' of which one spoke are not to keep the bike balanced on its own, but to ascertain the bike's lean angle.

Pertinent quote - to help eloquently illustrate my point - of the day:

“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” ~Einstein

And yes, I realize that this quote cuts both ways, I still stand behind it, laughing maniacally, pointing a big foam index finger at you all.

~Dylan

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 18 2009, 05:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How much money has been flushed down the toilet unnecessarily in an attempt to make 800cc bikes go as fast as 990s?

How many teams, manufacturers, and bikes have been lost over the last 2 years?

The 800s are not loathsome machines, but they have come to symbolize the stupidity of the FIM, Dorna, the MSMA, and the IRTA. How could they resolve to ruin the sport b/c they wanted a more challenging formula for the engineers?

In my mind's eye I can see the expressionless faces of the technocrats as they gleefully signed GP's demise. Anyone who has ever enjoyed the sport for its visceral thrills has suffered needlessly. Anyone who appreciates the skill required to tame a two wheeled beast has been shown to the exit.

Disgusting.

Motorcycling is pleasurable because it is difficult. From the moment a bike is stood upright, the forces of nature are conspiring to make the bike lie flat on the pavement. Balancing the forces of nature and the forces of the machine has always been the responsibility of the rider. Such meaningful work was not meant for sensors and electronic gadgets.

Would you allow a robot to deliver Sunday's sermon?!

Fighting technological innovation is a fools errand, but protecting formulas that place emphasis on the rider is a noble struggle.

Forever 990cc w/ 24 liters


due to the engines..... ummmmmm ZERO

The 800's faster than the 990 just shows how Dorna and the rest failed in slowing the sport down for safety. They also managed to remove the racing aspect of the sport. All the development money spend just to get back where the sport was 3 years ago in terms of lap times. Although i wonder how fast the 990's would have been now have they continued that trend. If they haven't made the switch, would Team KR still be in the sport? Kawasaki fielding 2 bikes? Would BMW would have been enticed to join motogp instead of WSBK? We'll never know...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MotoGpDylwah @ Apr 18 2009, 01:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>VERY well said my friend, but I must betray my disagreement; being as I find my interests enraptured within the whimsical technological intricacies of engineering pursuits over the overt flamboyance of motorsport - just as I prefer the delicate brilliance of cornering over burnoutZ and wheelieZ - it is a matter of relative indifference to me that the racing does not display quite the same brutally crude beauty of years past. However, I must admit, for I am both human and male: 'close' racing - resulting in swapped paint, smoking tires and boiling blood - carve a considerably more prominent evil sneer into the corners of my mouth. I love most of all to see - prancing gleefully along with rider skill - the triumph of intellect, innovation, engineering and technology over the stagnant evolution of where we have already been. 990 is the past, smaller displacement/ higher-tech is the future. Oh, and I am quite certain that the 'gyros' of which one spoke are not to keep the bike balanced on its own, but to ascertain the bike's lean angle.

Pertinent quote - to help eloquently illustrate my point - of the day:

“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” ~Einstein

And yes, I realize that this quote cuts both ways, I still stand behind it, laughing maniacally, pointing a big foam index finger at you all.

~Dylan

Would you use GPS to find your wife's/girlfriend's g-spot? Would you use a gyroscope to help you determine the proper angle of attack?

Man is already equipped with the sensory organs necessary for that type of work. Man is already equipped with the sensory organs necessary to ride.

If you use electronics your girlfriend might be impressed with the efficiency with which you help her achieve orgasm, but she won't want to do it as often b/c she's a finely tuned instrument of pleasure and she's going to notice something is missing.

Is ... crude and violent? It all depends who's on top, and what their motivation is. Same with GP motorcycles. The brutishness we observed during the 990-era was in fact a reflection of the men who rode them.

The 990s were actually quite smooth and relatively easy to ride. The 800s by contrast are much less smooth and the way the circulate the track is much less a reflection of the personality, methodology, and skill of the person on top. Most of the 800's performance gains are due to the new tires designed specifically to work with the ECU and not with the rider.

Until motorcycling is made sacred, we will continue to ruin it with our unquenchable desire to digitize everything around us. The blend of man and machine is sacred. Electronic wires carrying digital signals should not serve as liaison between man and machine.

You should not use electronic gadgets in bed...........................unless your unit lacks displacement. Apply that to motorcycling however you like.

Its the torque of the 990 that gives me a boner...its not that the 800s are "slow" cause they're not, they just dont have that PUNCH that only comes from the 990.."No Replacement For Displacement" simple as that...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mumu37 @ Apr 18 2009, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The 800's faster than the 990 just shows how Dorna and the rest failed in slowing the sport down for safety. They also managed to remove the racing aspect of the sport. All the development money spend just to get back where the sport was 3 years ago in terms of lap times. Although i wonder how fast the 990's would have been now have they continued that trend. If they haven't made the switch, would Team KR still be in the sport? Kawasaki fielding 2 bikes? Would BMW would have been enticed to join motogp instead of WSBK? We'll never know...

Have half he forum had some serious brain surgery?
The 990's would have been even faster today. The objective were to stop the development of increasing speed, and it did. EOD. Never mind it also altered the racing and the corner speeds.
I don't particulary like the direction the sport has taken but I strongly doubt the cc decrease alone made much of a difference in cost. Yes, some for the initial cost of a new construction but the real cost is in the ever lasting hunt for more power, more controllable power, less friction... Things that has been going on since the start of modern racing. The increasing cost comes for two direction. Intorduction of four stroke and the ever increasing prestige (btw. made a big jump with 4-stroke)
Forget the 990 and pray we will keep the 800's a few more years. My guess is that right after the GP2 intro we will see new MotoGP rules down to 600cc with no rev limit.

My first reaction was, wow, its amazing. My second reaction was, well I guess they are less safe than the 990. Not only do they reach the same top speeds but they are faster in corners where the real danger is.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MotoGpDylwah @ Apr 18 2009, 02:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>VERY well said my friend, but I must betray my disagreement; being as I find my interests enraptured within the whimsical technological intricacies of engineering pursuits over the overt flamboyance of motorsport - just as I prefer the delicate brilliance of cornering over burnoutZ and wheelieZ - it is a matter of relative indifference to me that the racing does not display quite the same brutally crude beauty of years past. However, I must admit, for I am both human and male: 'close' racing - resulting in swapped paint, smoking tires and boiling blood - carve a considerably more prominent evil sneer into the corners of my mouth. I love most of all to see - prancing gleefully along with rider skill - the triumph of intellect, innovation, engineering and technology over the stagnant evolution of where we have already been. 990 is the past, smaller displacement/ higher-tech is the future. Oh, and I am quite certain that the 'gyros' of which one spoke are not to keep the bike balanced on its own, but to ascertain the bike's lean angle.

Pertinent quote - to help eloquently illustrate my point - of the day:

“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” ~Einstein

And yes, I realize that this quote cuts both ways, I still stand behind it, laughing maniacally, pointing a big foam index finger at you all.

~Dylan

Dylan, very eloquent post. Welcome to the forum.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 18 2009, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Have half he forum had some serious brain surgery?
The 990's would have been even faster today. The objective were to stop the development of increasing speed, and it did. EOD. Never mind it also altered the racing and the corner speeds.
I don't particulary like the direction the sport has taken but I strongly doubt the cc decrease alone made much of a difference in cost. Yes, some for the initial cost of a new construction but the real cost is in the ever lasting hunt for more power, more controllable power, less friction... Things that has been going on since the start of modern racing. The increasing cost comes for two direction. Intorduction of four stroke and the ever increasing prestige (btw. made a big jump with 4-stroke)
Forget the 990 and pray we will keep the 800's a few more years. My guess is that right after the GP2 intro we will see new MotoGP rules down to 600cc with no rev limit.

I disagree Fish. It cost way more money to make more power out of a smaller displacement. I'm not so sure that the extra power that "might" have been developed from a 990 would have been useable. We really don't know what the optimum is yet, but my hunch is that they would have looked at corner speed to increase lap times--something that was immediately evident with the 800s which might have been more difficult to achieve with the 990s. As they say, you just can't beat physics.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 18 2009, 05:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I disagree Fish. It cost way more money to make more power out of a smaller displacement. I'm not so sure that the extra power that "might" have been developed from a 990 would have been useable. We really don't know what the optimum is yet, but my hunch is that they would have looked at corner speed to increase lap times--something that was immediately evident with the 800s which might have been more difficult to achieve with the 990s. As they say, you just can't beat physics.

Jumkie, what make you think that Honda woud think twice about the cost if they could increase the top speed on the 990 with 10km/h as long as it ment that they would have a huge advantage?
To increase power cost the same or slightly less on smaller engines (fewer cylinders, less parts) as long as the engines are on about the same tuning level. The 800's except the Ducati where on about the same level of tuning as the 990's at the start of '07. Hence, if anyone should be blamed for driving cost it shoud be Ducati that took power to a new level. I would never blame them as all they did was to add what the bikes needed the most. Maybe it would have taken a year or two extra with tc, suspension and tire development but sooner then later the 990's would have needed the same power addition.
Add to this, how long would it take for the factories to realize how much the rotational mass in the engines influence corner entry speeds? As soon as they eventually would have found out a new hunt for lower mass in a big engine while maintaining power. A new cost drving development.

Someone said somthing very true about racing and motorcycle in general "Too much power is almost enough"

Whoever brought up the safety aspect is the winner in this thread. Another well thought out plan by Dorna, we are one round into the third season of the 800cc experiment and already they are achieving higher trap speeds than the 990s did in five seasons. So now, not only do the 800s carry higher corner speeds where crashes are more likely to occur (mind you Dorna overlooked that fact when pitching "safety") but they also will be entering braking zones at higher speeds, the other most likely crash point.

So in the name of safety, Dorna has instituted a formula that yields higher corner speeds straight away, and now after only three seasons of development, higher speeds in a straight line as well. Forget the need for close racing, let's get someone with any sort of competence to run this series before someone is killed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 18 2009, 07:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Would you use GPS to find your wife's/girlfriend's g-spot? Would you use a gyroscope to help you determine the proper angle of attack?

Man is already equipped with the sensory organs necessary for that type of work. Man is already equipped with the sensory organs necessary to ride.

If you use electronics your girlfriend might be impressed with the efficiency with which you help her achieve orgasm, but she won't want to do it as often b/c she's a finely tuned instrument of pleasure and she's going to notice something is missing.

Is ... crude and violent? It all depends who's on top, and what their motivation is. Same with GP motorcycles. The brutishness we observed during the 990-era was in fact a reflection of the men who rode them.

The 990s were actually quite smooth and relatively easy to ride. The 800s by contrast are much less smooth and the way the circulate the track is much less a reflection of the personality, methodology, and skill of the person on top. Most of the 800's performance gains are due to the new tires designed specifically to work with the ECU and not with the rider.

Until motorcycling is made sacred, we will continue to ruin it with our unquenchable desire to digitize everything around us. The blend of man and machine is sacred. Electronic wires carrying digital signals should not serve as liaison between man and machine.

You should not use electronic gadgets in bed...........................unless your unit lacks displacement. Apply that to motorcycling however you like.

Clever, and entertaining, but as far as a true argument - which I am sure you did not quite intend - irrelevant.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Apr 18 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whoever brought up the safety aspect is the winner in this thread. Another well thought out plan by Dorna, we are one round into the third season of the 800cc experiment and already they are achieving higher trap speeds than the 990s did in five seasons. So now, not only do the 800s carry higher corner speeds where crashes are more likely to occur (mind you Dorna overlooked that fact when pitching "safety") but they also will be entering braking zones at higher speeds, the other most likely crash point.

So in the name of safety, Dorna has instituted a formula that yields higher corner speeds straight away, and now after only three seasons of development, higher speeds in a straight line as well. Forget the need for close racing, let's get someone with any sort of competence to run this series before someone is killed.

Excellent points, however, the only way to keep corner speeds, trap speeds, top speeds, and money consumption speeds down is to halt any and all progress and development from now on, or to apply further and far more extreme restrictions on the bikes. But that would be no fun, now would it? It surely wouldn't be MotoGp.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MotoGpDylwah @ Apr 19 2009, 01:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Excellent points, however, the only way to keep corner speeds, trap speeds, top speeds, and money consumption speeds down is to halt any and all progress and development from now on, or to apply further and far more extreme restrictions on the bikes. But that would be no fun, now would it? It surely wouldn't be MotoGp.
The way they have achieved the speed both in a straight line and in corners is by designing bikes which would seem to be inherently unstable including extremely peaky engines, which are rideable only because of the electronics, hence crashes which in my view occur at least partly because the rider has little warning when a bike is approaching the limits of adhesion. If the 990 formula had continued with the addition of the current electronics things would likely be even worse it is true, and devising rules for a "prototype" class with the current level of technical ingenuity is doubtless a difficult endeavour; however whilst having accountants undertake the task is a novel approach it would not appear to have been successful thus far.