The rider's style, or the way the bike delivers power? Tire is built for Ducati imo.
All that aero is hideous looking...
2024 - Valencia Pre Season Test
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All that aero is hideous looking...
Joined Mar 2023
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More aero downforce popping up, be it the shape of the faring or new wings such as KTM's front fender wing. Is the paint job on Millers bike designed to make it harder for the competitors to analyse the aero changes? 
Obviously I don’t know, but rumours are they haven’t changed the tire much, so perhaps Gigi has designed the Ducati to suit the tire, which I guess he is entitled to do, but makes a mockery of the cost savings supposedly involved with a control tire. When Nakamoto was still in charge at Honda he opposed aero, and among his reasons was the cost involved. Interestingly in F1 the sanction for Red Bull’s purported financial indiscretion was to cut their wind tunnel time. I guess being owned by VW- Audi Ducati now can’t be outspent by Honda but I am in agreement with Lex and apparently with you that aero and ride height devices are bad for gp bike racing.
I guess GP bike racing was a ritual combat between Honda and Yamaha, apparently with arcane rules beyond my ken, but however the expenditure for racing has been justified to corporate overlords, partly a cultural thing due to the original Mr Honda being a racing guy I have previously gathered, it would seem spending a fortune on aero etc totally irrelevant to their road bikes doesn’t qualify as Lex says.
Historically tire changes have influenced rider fortunes, and I recall 2 rider votes which resulted in the withdrawal of tires with which the season started and which were the preference of unpopular contenders. To be fair after the second vote Dorna determined that tires wouldn’t be withdrawn mid season again and supply would at least continue along with any new tire for the reminder of a season, only fair I would have thought. As recall in another season a tire which suited Jorge Lorenzo, whose butterhammer thing was also a non conforming riding style if in a different way than MM’s or Stoner’s , was withdrawn due to safety concerns consequent on several delaminations when employed on Ducatis, fair enough I guess, but left Lorenzo without the tire which suited him.
Imo both the control tire and aero limit how the current bikes can be ridden, and as I have said I preferred watching MM and Stoner before him ride in a extraordinary fashion/exceed the conventional limits of their bikes to a closer battle between a larger number of more mundane riders.
MM will next season be on a bike which resembles those of the bulk of the field, so it will be on him to ride it the way it needs to be ridden even imo..
Joined Feb 2020
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Bendigo Vic
I liked this;
www.crash.net
Current KTM test rider Pedrosa, one of the few that Marquez sought advice from before deciding to end his eleven-year Repsol Honda career, told MotoGP.com.:
"The first thing we saw was the smile after his first run - that's not good news for the competition!
“Like everyone, I was also here wanting to see him on the bike today and curious about his performance."
He should have some insight.
Pedrosa: Marquez smile “not good for the competition!” | Tardozzi: Title top 3
Marc Marquez’s former team-mate Dani Pedrosa was among those present at the Valencia MotoGP test and ‘curious’ to see how the eight-time world champion performed on his Ducati debut.
www.crash.net
Current KTM test rider Pedrosa, one of the few that Marquez sought advice from before deciding to end his eleven-year Repsol Honda career, told MotoGP.com.:
"The first thing we saw was the smile after his first run - that's not good news for the competition!
“Like everyone, I was also here wanting to see him on the bike today and curious about his performance."
He should have some insight.
Joined Mar 2023
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I'm with you on this
Building the bike to suit the tyre is what has happened for decades, though it has been a two way street
The delamination's were blamed on running insufficient pressure and probably have contributed to the current tyre pressure rules
Rules intended to cut costs don't work because the budget just gets spent elsewhere, however it can in some situations reduce the advantage of the higher budget teams. I'd like to see rules that make the bikes a bit more pliable, resulting in different lines being possible thru corners, which I assume aero has a lot to do with it. Braking should be looked at too as longer braking zones opens up more possibilities than shorter braking zones
After reviewing the pictures of the 2024-spec machines testing at Valencia, it appears the levee has broken regarding aero developments. No appendage is too garish or dangerous to consider using, even if it could lock the pilot in the saddle, while also obscuring the tail camera.
I don't want to come across as an F1 fan from the early 70s, who clutches his pearls at each new aerodynamic protrusion, but these developments seem senseless. As Nakamoto revealed no long ago, Honda already researched aero and ride height devices in the 80s, but turned away because it made the bikes harder to ride without a proportionate increase in performance. Cagiva was already using active suspension in the early 90s with some success, before withdrawing to campaign the 916 in World Superbike. Active ride height died in motorcycle grand prix.
In my estimation, machine has been superior to man for at least 30 years in motorsport, and the triumph of machines over man in most facets of life is perhaps the most tired socioeconomic trope of 21st century life, yet motorsport engineers keep beating this dead horse as if it will carry them to the mountain top. Each formula is a new opportunity to subjugate the pilot, but the technical staff gaze across the paddock at each other with bemusement as the sport becomes little more than a shoddy social-media property. Sporting leagues with no technology whatever are worth many multiples of motorsport series, and they have much lower fixed costs than motorsport, yet motorsport continues to self flagellate with new junk tech every year.
Leo Messi is a global icon. He kicks a ball for a living. There is virtually no risk involved. Guys who drag themselves on the pavement at death-defying speeds for some of the world's largest corporations are hardly known by comparison. Their engineers and crew chiefs enjoy a relatively modest lifestyle. Why? Because the companies and executive management that call the shots in grand prix fashion themselves as tech icons, and they divert the economic value of motorsport to fund the continuous subjugation of the rider. You-could-never-ride-a-200hp-Superbike-without-our-onboard-computers is already leading to industry contraction. It's a race to the bottom, led by the fatalists at VAG.
Why then, when I look at the 2024 spec MotoGP machines do I see new carbon fractals sprouting from the bodywork? If the MSMA and FIM supposedly all agree that the sport is headed in the wrong direction, why continue full steam towards the ravine? They should be pumping the brakes, not marshalling their resources for one final bender before rehab.
Anyway, we'll see how 2024 goes. It never ceases to amazing me what sort of show the riders can produce, even when they face strong headwinds.
I don't want to come across as an F1 fan from the early 70s, who clutches his pearls at each new aerodynamic protrusion, but these developments seem senseless. As Nakamoto revealed no long ago, Honda already researched aero and ride height devices in the 80s, but turned away because it made the bikes harder to ride without a proportionate increase in performance. Cagiva was already using active suspension in the early 90s with some success, before withdrawing to campaign the 916 in World Superbike. Active ride height died in motorcycle grand prix.
In my estimation, machine has been superior to man for at least 30 years in motorsport, and the triumph of machines over man in most facets of life is perhaps the most tired socioeconomic trope of 21st century life, yet motorsport engineers keep beating this dead horse as if it will carry them to the mountain top. Each formula is a new opportunity to subjugate the pilot, but the technical staff gaze across the paddock at each other with bemusement as the sport becomes little more than a shoddy social-media property. Sporting leagues with no technology whatever are worth many multiples of motorsport series, and they have much lower fixed costs than motorsport, yet motorsport continues to self flagellate with new junk tech every year.
Leo Messi is a global icon. He kicks a ball for a living. There is virtually no risk involved. Guys who drag themselves on the pavement at death-defying speeds for some of the world's largest corporations are hardly known by comparison. Their engineers and crew chiefs enjoy a relatively modest lifestyle. Why? Because the companies and executive management that call the shots in grand prix fashion themselves as tech icons, and they divert the economic value of motorsport to fund the continuous subjugation of the rider. You-could-never-ride-a-200hp-Superbike-without-our-onboard-computers is already leading to industry contraction. It's a race to the bottom, led by the fatalists at VAG.
Why then, when I look at the 2024 spec MotoGP machines do I see new carbon fractals sprouting from the bodywork? If the MSMA and FIM supposedly all agree that the sport is headed in the wrong direction, why continue full steam towards the ravine? They should be pumping the brakes, not marshalling their resources for one final bender before rehab.
Anyway, we'll see how 2024 goes. It never ceases to amazing me what sort of show the riders can produce, even when they face strong headwinds.
Yes.as I recall he said they could build a bike which was very fast but led to the rider reaching the limits of human endurance in a couple of laps.
You have nearly nailed me, I am old, although not old enough to have been a 70s F1 fan, but was something of a fan in the formula Cosworth days in the 80s when pre- the aerodynamics era Alan Jones who wouldn’t fit into a modern F1 car was wont to overtake 3 opponents in the same corner.
I didn’t really object to the look of the aerodynamic devices, although the pre- aerodynamics cars were prettier, just the dirty air phenomenon etc which pretty much precluded overtaking.
The fundamental thing is that people are fans of the human beings/riders, not really of the marques as opposed to soccer fans who are often hugely invested long term in the major teams. Even on a fairly hardcore gp bike racing forum such as this one people care far more about the riders’ championship than the constructors’ championship
I agree the riders still somehow manage to make a difference, and while I don’t particularly like Bagnaia he does seem to have an edge as a rider including managing to preserve his tires/ride old tires better than others. I consider it likely he and Martin at least would be at the pointy end of the field whatever the formula.
I have for most of the last decade been a fan of Honda riders, although I was also a Lorenzo fan, and consider the so called equalisation rules to have worked against them and to have entrenched Ducati just as similar rules have tended to entrench a particular marque in F1. They have imo much to answer for in regard to the 800 formula imo though, the genesis of which seemed to be a realisation that there was a limit to what human riders could sustain as far as the speed of the bikes went, but they more or less hijacked/promulgated that formula to follow an engineering philosophy. Like the 800s the current direction with the bikes seems to have made them more rather than less dangerous for the riders.
To be pedantic there is some risk to soccer/football, heading the ball does involve a risk of CTE, but otherwise soccer injuries as opposed to those in motorsport are indeed non life threatening.
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Prompted by Lex’s post above about how the aero has swallowed up MotoGP, I am suspecting, not for the first time, that we are on the cusp of aero totaling dominating almost everything else in a modern MotoGP bike.
This begs the question of whether we are watching, in real time, the characteristics needed by the riders change from outbraking and riding the edge of the tire, to to those suited to using aero to get the best lap time.
Obviously all skills will still be needed, but the aero skills will be most rewarded. Maybe. The last couple of years was the intro of the dangerous nonsense they call aero. Now it looks like they are getting serious. They are at so much engine power now already, it seems they can’t use it easily, with the rubber restrictions.
This is not F1. What happens when a rider comes unglued to the track at high speed because of an Aero malfunction coming down to the end of the straight at Mugello? With the difference in elevation.
Uncharted territory and very dangerous to the riders. Corporate takeover of MotoGP is squarely to blame.
This begs the question of whether we are watching, in real time, the characteristics needed by the riders change from outbraking and riding the edge of the tire, to to those suited to using aero to get the best lap time.
Obviously all skills will still be needed, but the aero skills will be most rewarded. Maybe. The last couple of years was the intro of the dangerous nonsense they call aero. Now it looks like they are getting serious. They are at so much engine power now already, it seems they can’t use it easily, with the rubber restrictions.
This is not F1. What happens when a rider comes unglued to the track at high speed because of an Aero malfunction coming down to the end of the straight at Mugello? With the difference in elevation.
Uncharted territory and very dangerous to the riders. Corporate takeover of MotoGP is squarely to blame.
Yes that is one reason why it will be interesting from a detached viewpoint to see whether MM can ride to maximise the benefit of aero rather than riding to the limit of the tyres which it has been theorised was what he did better than others in his pomp.
One of my objections to Dorna has always been that they imo mostly fairly slavishly follow what F1 does, and gp bikes are not 2 wheeled F1 cars, particularly from a safety viewpoint, as you point out.
I've "only" been watching F1 since 2010 (when I was 8) but I think I've studied the sport's history quite a bit and there is a consistent pattern that a team comes up with an innovation and dominates for a season, than everyone copies it and it gets banned.
It's about time they take everything off these bikes that wasn't on them five years ago.
What I also don't understand is that there's so much talk about bikes getting too fast but there doesn't seem to be any urgency to do anything about this before 2027.
It's about time they take everything off these bikes that wasn't on them five years ago.
What I also don't understand is that there's so much talk about bikes getting too fast but there doesn't seem to be any urgency to do anything about this before 2027.
Joined Oct 2008
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In Cider
Yes, the season-to-season fan experience is dominated by the appearance and eventual banning of various strategies and solutions that skirt the rules. It's actually been that way for a really long time. Very much a British common law approach to motorsport management. Whatever is not listed in the regs is a free-for-all. Everything is a negotiation. Grand prix racing by comparison has been dominated by the Japanese since the 70s, and they do things much differently. They have a cartel and code law approach. A grand prix bike is "X", don't screw it up, or you sit at the foot of the table. They cheat a little bit, but not enough to destabilize things.
The arrival of European manufacturers in MotoGP is good, but it's also causing a lot of irreconcilable differences in rules and manufacturer management. They don't even have a functional mechanism for making decisions or writing rules, imo, which means they aren't paying any attention to what's happening on track, imo.
Yeah, Cecchinelli did a good job of debunking the MSMA's use of "safety" to justify everything. Safety devices on the road don't really increase performance. Safety devices in MotoGP always increase performance. Safety improvements are virtually always offset by dangers elsewhere.
I think continuity is an issue as well. We are reaching a point where MotoGP bikes exist on their own island. The skills to ride the bikes are specific to the premier class, and riders from other disciplines do not develop those skillsets in the lower classes. F1 has the same issue, but you can drive until you're nearly 40. With a few exceptions, riders rarely stay competitive into their mid-late 30s. This will eventually strain the talent pool.
I think this has already been happening for some time, actually. Handling the additional power was always the issue with moving up a class. With the advent of rider aids like traction control, wheelie control, seamless shift, auto-blipping and engine braking, the skillset has changed. Now it's all about creating a riding a setup that maximizes coefficient of friction at the front and rear while making sure the tires reach the end. So the problem in the premier class was the same as the lower classes, maybe that's why Marquez crushed in his rookie season, but now that wings and ride height are added to the mix, it's a complicated variation on the theme, and it's taking time for the riders to learn again, but now riders can't jump from other disciplines that are most about controlling power and the attitude of the bike.
Yes they have diametrically opposed mechanisms operating in regard to both “close racing” and safety. They deliberately decreased the tire technology to decrease grip for ‘better racing’ but now are using aerodynamics and ride height devices to increase grip. And the traction control stuff did reduce massive highsides but they have now re-appeared, and as we have been discussing aerodynamics far from increasing safety actually seem to have a tendency to let go unpredictably and perhaps capriciously if multiple riders including the leading riders are to be believed. You are as usual correct, anything that can be used to increase performance will be used to do so.
Superbikes may even have been a better lead in to 500 racing and perhaps 990 racing than 125 or 250 gp racing, but those days are long gone, with moto 3 and moto 2 bikes as well as superbikes now bearing little relation to MotoGP bikes as you say. and I agree we are unlikely to see a rookie premier class champion again.
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Joined Mar 2023
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Rookie premier class champion is a rare beast;
1. Kenny Roberts Senior
2. Marc Marquez
Roberts was that long ago that it bears no resemblance to current racing. Marc went straight into the factory team at a time when only 4 riders have the potential/suitable bike/team to win.
Should also note that Max Baggi won his first ever 500cc race and wasn't in a factory team. Didn't help him win a world championship
1. Kenny Roberts Senior
2. Marc Marquez
Roberts was that long ago that it bears no resemblance to current racing. Marc went straight into the factory team at a time when only 4 riders have the potential/suitable bike/team to win.
Should also note that Max Baggi won his first ever 500cc race and wasn't in a factory team. Didn't help him win a world championship
Jeremy Burgess contends Rossi could’ve should’ve won in his first season on a 500 if they had gone their own way earlier while Criville was developing the factory factory Honda backwards. Different days and riders of rare quality anyway of course. MM hardly romped it in anyway in 2013, the eventual margin was pretty much what he gained from repeating the Gibernau torpedo on Lorenzo at Jerez, and involved Lorenzo crashing in the wet at Assen and fracturing his clavicle having been more or less in control of the title race till then
Joined Oct 2008
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He also won his first ever WSBK race. Quite a record.
The same JB who asserted they'd fix the Ducati in 80 seconds? Haha I had to say it.
Lorenzo crashing again a week later in Germany and basically breaking the same bone again put paid to his title hopes that yr. Similarly, I recall Pedrosa fired himself out of contention the same weekend with a similar injury.
